Is it unethical to charge extra for Autopilot (software) after we had paid for the hardware?

[Atari2600]

So paying twice for a feature is ok with you?

You ignored my post about AP 3 which is coming out for the model 3. So you think it's ok to pay for something once and expect both a hardware and software upgrade for nothing? Is that ethical?

Ever own a car and get navigation updates annually for $185 a year? For my old Honda that would be $1,480 over 8 years. And was just a map... and bad ones at that. This is a lot more and some day I would expect most vendors charge this as an annual service.

 

[Pkmmte]

As someone else mentioned in this thread, this is similar to what happened back when Tesla had software locked 75kWh sold as 60kWh. They already had a 75 before that 60, then decided to *lower* the price and offer a 60 in hopes to capture a larger audience that eventually upgrades.

They essentially took a risk by lowering their costs and offering the same hardware as their more expensive models for cheaper. Should those people have gotten the 75kWh battery for free?

By the way, you guys were right. By disagreeing with his posts in this thread, he went back and started disagreeing with random posts of mine from other threads! I remember that behavior from back in elementary school.

 

[Vaxe]

Like I said, happy to pay for AP 3 and any associated hardware.

Not willing to pay for the current EAP unlock since I already did pay for its V2 hardware and software in my $49k base price. Anyone who thinks Tesla put these in the vehicle for free needs to come off the fanboy wagon.

They are a business and 100% did their best to calculate EAP spend and put that into the base price already. Why pay $6k for something they already charged you for, and will again to “upgrade” to V3 and full self driving.

To answer your analogy, I never paid for annual GPS updates because the one that came with the vehicle has always been accessible by default, and was never software locked. However, I would be willing to pay Tesla annual software updates for continuous improvement on EAP. Just think it’s unethical to charge $6k when I’m sure they already put that into the base price to recoup development cost across the fleet.

You ignored my post about AP 3 which is coming out for the model 3. So you think it's ok to pay for something once and expect both a hardware and software upgrade for nothing? Is that ethical?

Ever own a car and get navigation updates annually for $185 a year? For my old Honda that would be $1,480 over 8 years. And was just a map... and bad ones at that. This is a lot more and some day I would expect most vendors charge this as an annual service.

 

[kengchang]

Not willing to pay for the current EAP unlock since I already did pay for its V2 hardware and software in my $49k base price. Anyone who thinks Tesla put these in the vehicle for free needs to come off the fanboy wagon.

So Tesla should charge you $2500 for Autopilot v9 and every subsequent release after you get your car since according to your logic, you haven't pay for those.

 

[Vaxe]

So Tesla should charge you $2500 for Autopilot v9 and every subsequent release after you get your car since according to your logic, you haven't pay for those.

Are we talking subscription or NRE?
Every mainstream IoT product has free software updates - phones, Windows updates, TVs, routers. Apple even does macOS for free.
When Tesla rolls out FAP, then yes I would be happy to pay as that is a significant upgrade and R&D took place after taking delivery.

The current Autopilot and its associated development costs have been added to your base price - how can you justify paying for an unlock?

And yes, if they want to charge for v9 then at least I have the option to decline (and my car would still operate with everything I paid for). But why fully charge for EAP hardware and software in its current iteration, just to lock it unless we buy in future development cost?

 

[kengchang]

Are we talking subscription or NRE?
Every mainstream IoT product has free software updates - phones, Windows updates, TVs, routers. Apple even does macOS for free.
When Tesla rolls out FAP, then yes I would be happy to pay as that is a significant upgrade and R&D took place after taking delivery.

The current Autopilot and its associated development costs have been added to your base price - how can you justify paying for an unlock?

But Tesla is not mainstream, it's not even 1% in the automobile industry and the 35K you paid for your car doesn't even cover an EE/SE's annual salary. How are you justifying you already paid for it? You merely paid portion of it.

 

[Vaxe]

But Tesla is not mainstream, it's not even 1% in the automobile industry and the 35K you paid for your car doesn't even cover an EE/SE's annual salary. How are you justifying you already paid for it? You merely paid portion of it.

We all paid our proportional share of it - dictated by Tesla - when we took delivery.

I don’t think the $49k base we all paid ($14k upsell) is just for heated seats, center console, and LR battery. Pretty sure EAP cost in its current state, to the best of their ability, was fully added to the base price. If they would unlock the EAP I already paid for, I would be happy with the current vehicle and would be fine never updating non-bug related firmware ever again.

This is why I would support a subscription model, to pay for software development that takes place after we took delivery.

 

[Atari2600]

To answer your analogy, I never paid for annual GPS updates because the one that came with the vehicle has always been accessible by default, and was never software locked. However, I would be willing to pay Tesla annual software updates for continuous improvement on EAP. Just think it’s unethical to charge $6k when I’m sure they already put that into the base price to recoup development cost across the fleet.

So to translate your first sentence you pirated the map updates. Clearly not the ethical choice.

Capitalism is great, if you don't like it don't buy it.

 

[Vaxe]

So to translate your first sentence you pirated the map updates. Clearly not the ethical choice.

Capitalism is great, if you don't like it don't buy it.

No, because Benz doesn’t lock maps if you choose not to pay their $150 annual upgrade. My maps from 2014 still work fine. They also don’t lock your GPS hardware if you choose not to pay for an unlock as the case with Tesla’s EAP.

This is not about capitalism. Tesla charged every one of us EAP hardware and software (in its current form) when we took delivery. They locked the software portion unless we pay an one time $6k fee to support future development, which I would be happy to live without - like my 2014 maps.

 

[kengchang]

We all paid our proportional share of it - dictated by Tesla - when we took delivery.

I don’t think the $49k base we all paid ($14k upsell) is just for heated seats, center console, and LR battery. Pretty sure EAP cost in its current state, to the best of their ability, was fully added to the base price. If they would unlock the EAP I already paid for, I would be happy with the current vehicle and would be fine never updating non-bug related firmware ever again.

This is why I would support a subscription model, to pay for software development that takes place after we took delivery.

Tesla incurred $386,129,000 R&D cost in Q2, which is $9,477 per car sold in Q2 which is more than what Tesla is charging for EAP. Unless you have detail cost breakdown, you don't know it is fully added to the price. It is your "belief" it is added.

 

[Atari2600]

This is not about capitalism. Tesla charged every one of us EAP hardware and software (in its current form) when we took delivery. They locked the software portion unless we pay an one time $6k fee to support future development, which I would be happy to live without - like my 2014 maps.

Then don't buy their car and write about how unethical they are on Seeking Alpha and how it's going to bankrupt the company.

 

[Vaxe]

Tesla incurred $386,129,000 R&D cost in Q2, which is $9,477 per car sold in Q2 which is more than what Tesla is charging for EAP. Unless you have detail cost breakdown, you don't know it is fully added to the price. It is your "belief" it is added.

And you have data to back the portion of the $9477 that’s actually for EAP in its current form wasn’t already amortized into the $49000 sticker price?

I would stake a chunk of that R&D is on future software like FAP (which they will charge us for), and development cost for the Semi, Roadster and sedan. Nothing to do with EAP that’s already in every Model 3 but locked unless we contribute $6k to their future projects.

 

[kengchang]

And you have data to back the portion of the $9477 that’s actually for EAP in its current form wasn’t already amortized into the $49000 sticker price?

I would stake a chunk of that R&D is on future software like FAP (which they will charge us for), and development cost for the Semi, Roadster and sedan. Nothing to do with EAP that’s already in every Model 3 but locked unless we contribute $6k to their future projects.

So where's your data to back that up? Find the detail breakdown then we can discuss more. You believe that the cost is already baked in and the burden of proof is on you to prove it.

 

[SSedan]

Maybe someone already said this but the real cost of R&D is the software.

Don't like it buy a legacy manufacturer car and see how you like being offered NAV updates for $175 and a 2 hour service visit then tell us who is gouging

 

[Vaxe]

So where's your data to back that up? Find the detail breakdown then we can discuss more. You believe that the cost is already baked in and the burden of proof is on you to prove it.

Obviously the public will never know. $14k all for heated seats, console and 30% bigger battery? Sure I believe that.

Not sure why you would think Tesla wouldn’t want to recoup as much as they can with every vehicle sold - which means factoring in 100% of cost into the sticker price (hence from 35k to 49k). The goal is to be profitable. If they made FAP unlock standard and charged $55k, we would all still buy. So what’s to say that’s not exactly what happened?

 

[MP3Mike]

$14k all for heated seats, console and 30% bigger battery?

You also get the premium sound system, the glass roof, the vegan leather seats, 1 year of premium connectivity. Power seats may also be part of the PUP package. Until they actually release the $35k version we won't know exactly what is included.

 

[eyespii]

We all paid our proportional share of it - dictated by Tesla - when we took delivery.

I don’t think the $49k base we all paid ($14k upsell) is just for heated seats, center console, and LR battery. Pretty sure EAP cost in its current state, to the best of their ability, was fully added to the base price. If they would unlock the EAP I already paid for, I would be happy with the current vehicle and would be fine never updating non-bug related firmware ever again.

This is why I would support a subscription model, to pay for software development that takes place after we took delivery.

How do u square being ok with paying a subscription fee, but not an upfront fee? They go towards paying for the exact same thing.

Also, like someone mentioned above, this isn’t an issue of ethics. Even if u think you’re paying for eap twice, that’d be at most greedy and unfair, but not unethical. Eap isnt a basic human right. Unethical is Martin shkreli jacking up the price of his cancer drug. Or if Coca Cola bought up a towns water supply to make their soda.

 

[Vaxe]

You also get the premium sound system, the glass roof, the vegan leather seats, 1 year of premium connectivity. Power seats may also be part of the PUP package. Until they actually release the $35k version we won't know exactly what is included.

I want to support Tesla but until there is evidence we’re not paying twice for the current EAP that’s already installed in every Model 3 (not talking about what’s in the works), I’m gonna sit this one out.

I can’t fathom at their executive meetings when someone said “hey you know the hundreds of millions we invested in EAP? We shouldn’t include that cost in the sticker price. Lets make buying that an option and give the choice to the consumers.”

 

[Vaxe]

Because I don’t know if we already paid that upfront fee as part of the sticker price, and the $6k is not just to support their bottom line for other projects. It makes no sense for Tesla to leave that to chance and hope enough would buy to offset their to-date R&D spent on the EAP tech.

You’re right, I should’ve titled it greed instead of ethics.

How do u square being ok with paying a subscription fee, but not an upfront fee? They go towards paying for the exact same thing.

Also, like someone mentioned above, this isn’t an issue of ethics. Even if u think you’re paying for eap twice, that’d be at most greedy and unfair, but not unethical. Eap isnt a basic human right. Unethical is Martin shkreli jacking up the price of his cancer drug. Or if Coca Cola bought up a towns water supply to make their soda.

 

[dondy]

Are we talking subscription or NRE?
Every mainstream IoT product has free software updates - phones, Windows updates, TVs, routers. Apple even does macOS for free.
When Tesla rolls out FAP, then yes I would be happy to pay as that is a significant upgrade and R&D took place after taking delivery.

You are mixing up updates and upgrades.

Updates are generally free and are the consequence of silent, automatic contract between you and the company. You accept current version of the product with all it's limitations and bugs with the hope that the company will fix it by issuing required updates. Which hopefully will fix all bugs somewhere in the future. They are free generally not because these companies are stupid and find their purpose by providing free servicing but because they issue unfixed "live" products.

Upgrades, are additions of significant new features and functions not existing previously in your system.
Apple provides software upgrades for free for 5-7y old hardware only and it is the result of their support policies. Similar restrictions exist in many other companies.

The current Autopilot and its associated development costs have been added to your base price - how can you justify paying for an unlock?

You paid only for hardware part which is used also for other features.

And yes, if they want to charge for v9 then at least I have the option to decline (and my car would still operate with everything I paid for). But why fully charge for EAP hardware and software in its current iteration, just to lock it unless we buy in future development cost?

May be it's news for you, but it is quite possible that the photo-camera you buy, TV you use, special hardware you buy for your company shares same hardware with cheaper or more expensive models and the only difference lies in few bits of software and trivial hardware patches. Quirks of mass production.

The only real alternative to current Tesla's approach is subscription, and I am not sure you want this approach. In professional software the transition to subscriptions which happened few years ago raised software expenses by 20+% yearly. With corresponding drop in software advances and generally crappier quality of "new" variants which often you can not skip even.