Israel/Hamas conflict

[wdolson]

Mario is sociopathic because he has taken a centrist position? It is inherently difficult to have an agenda as a centrist which is one reason I mostly identify as one.

I haven't read much of what he has to say, but he is being investigated by the SEC and FBI
He was Twitter's fastest-rising star. His past is catching up with him.

One thing that jumps out at me is his claim that the $106 billion is for relocating Gaza refugees. This is not true, the $106 billion is for many things including $61.4 billion for various Ukraine related aid (both military and humanitarian), $14.3 billion for Israel, $13.6 billion for US border protection, and $10 billion for several humanitarian projects, of which one is support for Gaza refugees.
What's in Biden's $106 billion supplemental funding request

I'll refrain from further comments on US politics here, but this post looks more like a Russian or Republican misinformation campaign than anything factual.

He doesn't look like a centrist to me.

 

[FireFighterHil]

The notion that you can be "centrist" in topics of politics and even more so of topics such as violence and war is morally repugnant. I can all but guarantee that there is complete cognitive dissonance going on with centrist views of the world.

“You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.”
​

― Winston Churchill

 

[Buckminster]

The notion that you can be "centrist" in topics of politics and even more so of topics such as violence and war is morally repugnant. I can all but guarantee that there is complete cognitive dissonance going on with centrist views of the world.

“You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.”​

​

― Winston Churchill

I would be surprised if you are not a centrist of sorts: A centrist would support Gazans (half of which are innocent children) but not Hamas. Where we differ is just how many innocent Gazan casualties are acceptable per Hamas leader.

 

[Quagmire2]

I am a moderate when it comes political views. I am just as sick and tired of "political speech" as anybody (when I say political speak I mean taking something and inserting spin to suit own needs).

Problem with that is being too cynical. Going both sides lie and then you latch onto an "alternate" source that aligns with your view that both sides lie and calling that centrist is BS. It's called identifying an audience and exploiting that for own selfish gain. I view that persons tweet as just as biased playing off the people who want to see both sides and be "centrists". It's 100% meant to illicit a reaction from his audience. He is playing them, especially since most will take him for his word vs actually reading through the document he attached.

Granted I come here and other places to try to keep up with what's going on with this conflict( and Ukraine/Russia) and not following it too closely, but I am just amazed at the reaction to this conflict. As someone earlier in this thread, this conflict has destroyed any empathy I may have had towards Palestine. While I am still fully for the two-state solution, I can't understand how there are Pro-Palestine protests going on now at some places in the Western world. Yes Israel's actions may not be defensible, but reaction to being oppressed isn't attacking civilians. Want to attack Israel military bases? Fine, but the attack at the music festival and the hostages is 100% not justifiable. I don't care how much these people want to go, " Well Israel's actions eventually led to this boil over event" Screw off. There is no defending it. No matter what the Israeli government did, it doesn't justify what Hamas did.

Now Israel is in a no win PR game because Hamas uses hospitals and other locations that will make Israel look bad when targeting. Just saw a story about an Israeli tank firing at what looks to be a personal civilian vehicle. Of course that is a bad look, but end of the day and I am sorry to say this, it's collateral damage. You don't know if that vehicle was actually a suicide vehicle. It may have been civilians who happened to be at the wrong place, wrong time and breached a set radius per the IDF's ROE and fired upon before it became clear they were trying to get away, but I am not ready to foam at the mouth and call Israel evil until it becomes clear with evidence, etc that tank was shooting at anything no matter because that crew was just feeling like killing people.

 

[Buckminster]

Whether Israel is on the right side of the moral debate is almost irrelevant. Muslims around the world will unite on this. Europe will have no choice to be pro Palestinian. They aren't far off that now. If you disagree, visit Marseille. Israeli's are already scared to travel around the world and their incursion is only just beginning. Americans might become in danger of travelling also - is that the world you want to live in?

And this is ignoring the ~20% likelihood of WW3 and/or a ~40% likelihood of a third gulf war. My pessimistic? percentages.

 

[JupiterMan]

After 9/11 the USA had the moral high ground having been attacked in an awful way. They unfortunately threw much of that good will away by choosing to use 9/11 as a cover to settle old scores with Iraq and Saddam Hussein.

Similar can be said for Israel after 7th October. There was an opportunity to do things differently, to maintain the moral high ground. But by their actions they have instead put the suffering of the Gazan people back in the political foreground and united much anti Israel feeling worldwide. Israel has allowed their reaction to be about Gaza, rather than about pinpointing those in Hamas responsible and freeing of hostages which should have been their objective.

 

[Quagmire2]

Whether Israel is on the right side of the moral debate is almost irrelevant. Muslims around the world will unite on this. Europe will have no choice to be pro Palestinian. They aren't far off that now. If you disagree, visit Marseille. Israeli's are already scared to travel around the world and their incursion is only just beginning. Americans might become in danger of travelling also - is that the world you want to live in?

And this is ignoring the ~20% likelihood of WW3 and/or a ~40% likelihood of a third gulf war. My pessimistic? percentages.

People who view Israel's actions as simply motivated as hatred towards the muslim religion is freaking nuts. Where are they when Hamas did the attack? Quiet.....

Now that Israel responds to defend themselves, now they get riled up? They expect countries in the Western world of influence to just accept getting attacked by these extremists and not fight back?

Where is the anger that Hamas is using hospitals and other locations to store ammo, launch their attacks from, etc knowing if Israel strikes them( DESPITE MULTIPLE WARNINGS) it causes them to riot against Israel? What do these people expect Israel to do? Just take it?

 

[indysurfer]

While I am still fully for the two-state solution, I can't understand how there are Pro-Palestine protests going on now at some places in the Western world.

Also consider that just in the past few years Assad, Hezbollah, Iran and Russia have killed 3X the number of Muslims in Syria and Iraq than have died in Israeli/Arab wars in over 100+ years.........yet there were no massive protests in Europe or US college campuses over all those Muslim victims.

We also know that most Arab nations are not big fans of Palestinians and don't want them as refugees based on the experience of Palestinians forming terrorist groups and waging war on their host countries like they did in Jordan and Lebanon.

So that tells me that a big number of people out in the streets protesting today are doing it primarily out of hatred of Jews and Israel.

When I hear "from the river to the sea" chanted on college campuses and street protests or talk about "decolonization" I know they are calling for the total destruction of Israel.

 

[Quagmire2]

After 9/11 the USA had the moral high ground having been attacked in an awful way. They unfortunately threw much of that good will away by choosing to use 9/11 as a cover to settle old scores with Iraq and Saddam Hussein.

Similar can be said for Israel after 7th October. There was an opportunity to do things differently, to maintain the moral high ground. But by their actions they have instead put the suffering of the Gazan people back in the political foreground and united much anti Israel feeling worldwide. Israel has allowed their reaction to be about Gaza, rather than about pinpointing those in Hamas responsible and freeing of hostages which should have been their objective.

Only problem is Hamas is Gaza's governing body. It's being treated as a sovereign country attacked another country.

This is like treating the attack on Pearl Harbor the way you propose here. Just go and locate Yamamoto and the task force that attacked Pearl and then call it a day.

This isn't a case of a terror group hiding in a country, it's the governing body attacking Israel.

 

[indysurfer]

After 9/11 the USA had the moral high ground having been attacked in an awful way. They unfortunately threw much of that good will away by choosing to use 9/11 as a cover to settle old scores with Iraq and Saddam Hussein.

Similar can be said for Israel after 7th October. There was an opportunity to do things differently, to maintain the moral high ground. But by their actions they have instead put the suffering of the Gazan people back in the political foreground and united much anti Israel feeling worldwide. Israel has allowed their reaction to be about Gaza, rather than about pinpointing those in Hamas responsible and freeing of hostages which should have been their objective.

I remember within a week of 9/11 before anyone even mentioned Iraq, several European newspapers were already alluding that America "had it coming". The best selling book in France in 2002 was "The Big Lie" which started the whole 9/11 truther business.

9/11: The Big Lie - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

America - like Israel were never given much benefit of the doubt or even much sympathy after massive and barbaric terrorist attacks by Islamists.

 

[Quagmire2]

I remember within a week of 9/11 before anyone even mentioned Iraq, several European newspapers were already alluding that America "had it coming". The best selling book in France in 2002 was "The Big Lie" which started the whole 9/11 truther business.

9/11: The Big Lie - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

America - like Israel were never given much benefit of the doubt or even much sympathy after massive and barbaric terrorist attacks by Islamists.

I do think it's good to understand the background/influence of the motivation behind 9/11. It doesn't justify 9/11 in anyway, but it's important/interesting how US foreign policy set it in motion.

Again not justifying or defending it nor saying, " America had it coming", but certainly good to take it as a learning point/ponder the unintended consequences of our policies due to different cultures, etc( why Iraqi perspective changed so quickly on the US after we got rid of Saddam to then be seen as the occupiers, etc).

 

[replicant]

(…) talk about "decolonization" I know they are calling for the total destruction of Israel.

Perhaps you should listen better.

 

[SmokyPeat]

I do think it's good to understand the background/influence of the motivation behind 9/11. It doesn't justify 9/11 in anyway, but it's important/interesting how US foreign policy set it in motion.

Again not justifying or defending it nor saying, " America had it coming", but certainly good to take it as a learning point/ponder the unintended consequences of our policies due to different cultures, etc( why Iraqi perspective changed so quickly on the US after we got rid of Saddam to then be seen as the occupiers, etc).

The 9/11 experience is also a good demonstration of the need to balance national security with the desire to avoid collateral damage to civilians. After the USS Cole bombing, the US military had bin Laden in the sights of a drone flying over Afghanistan. At the last minute president Clinton called off the airstrike due to intel that there were some civilians in the structure with bin Laden. Many thousands of lives would have been saved by decapitating Al Qaeda at that time.

 

[indysurfer]

I do think it's good to understand the background/influence of the motivation behind 9/11. It doesn't justify 9/11 in anyway, but it's important/interesting how US foreign policy set it in motion.

For sure it is smart to understand background to understand motivations. US military policy during the 70's, 80's and 90's leading up to 9/11 was generally in support of Islam. US supported Muslims in Afghanistan against the USSR, US supported Muslims in the Balkans against Christian Serbs, and US supported Muslims in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia in the first Gulf War as well as Iraqi Shia and Kurds from Saddam's attacks with the no fly zones after the Gulf War. Heck the US even went against the UK, Israel and France and sided with the Arabs with the Suez Crisis.

Bin Laden specifically cited the fact that we had US 'infidels" stationed in Saudi Arabia enforcing the no fly zone on Iraq as one of his main reasons for 9/11. Is that a legitimate grievance? Of course Bin Laden also cited the US support of Israel and other radical Islamic grievances - but does our support of Israel erase all of the other things America did (at great military risk) in defense Muslims in Europe, Afghanistan and the Middle East?

Face it, Al Qaeda, ISIS and Hamas are Islamic Supremacist organizations that want to see every Jew on the planet killed and Islam be the dominating force in the world. It is not about land or past faux grievances. These Islamist groups tell us plain as day what they want. Too many people in the West simply can not believe that such a retrograde force exists and fall back to thinking the West (or Israel) did something wrong to warrant Islamic barbarity.

 

[Skipdd]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1718830376661946862

This works out as $630 per US taxpayer. The more money is paid out, the more that will be expected and indeed needed.

I see @wdolson has provided more detail on what was actually in the proposed aid. It is just as I suspected.

I don’t trust posts from this individual any more. He puts clickbait headlines in his posts, and doesn’t provide the full research. I watched this play out with the “missile attack on the Gaza hospital.” When the fog cleared, and the facts were clear - the “Israeli missile” was a Hamas one that was intercepted by Iron Dome, and fragments fell in the hospital parking lot, Mr. Nawful, tried to spin his original post. Now, I want to see the FULL basis for his claims, not cherry picked pieces. Btw, the best analysis I saw of the hospital incident, was by the Geoconfirmed OSINT group. I will post the link at the bottom. There is also a poster that specializes in verifying or proving false, claims made by both sides. I will post a link from that OP, which debunks a claim by Israeli proponents, against Hamas. While I have my own views of who is right or wrong in this conflict, it is essential to form and/or adjust those views based on facts - in as much as that is possible.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1715527433930076402

https://twitter.com/x/status/1717971949282828639

 

[Skipdd]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1718686535514456105

I saw a post from Igor Sushko yesterday that suggested this attack was instigated by the FSB. Today he followed up with more substance. I’d still like more info, but I’m willing to post it based on what he is now reporting. It makes sense.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1718824464916599029

 

[SmokyPeat]

I see @wdolson has provided more detail on what was actually in the proposed aid. It is just as I suspected.

I don’t trust posts from this individual any more. He puts clickbait headlines in his posts, and doesn’t provide the full research. I watched this play out with the “missile attack on the Gaza hospital.” When the fog cleared, and the facts were clear - the “Israeli missile” was a Hamas one that was intercepted by Iron Dome, and fragments fell in the hospital parking lot, Mr. Nawful, tried to spin his original post. Now, I want to see the FULL basis for his claims, not cherry picked pieces. Btw, the best analysis I saw of the hospital incident, was by the Geoconfirmed OSINT group. I will post the link at the bottom. There is also a poster that specializes in verifying or proving false, claims made by both sides. I will post a link from that OP, which debunks a claim by Israeli proponents, against Hamas. While I have my own views of who is right or wrong in this conflict, it is essential to form and/or adjust those views based on facts - in as much as that is possible.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1715527433930076402

https://twitter.com/x/status/1717971949282828639

It was actually an Islamic Jihad rocket that struck the hospital parking lot. And it failed on it's own, not intercepted by Iron Dome defenses. Iron Dome only intercepts rockets after they have crossed over into Israeli territory, and only if they are determined to be headed toward population centers. There are so many duds and errant Qassam rockets that it is better to marshal the Iron Dome resources.

 

[Bet TSLA]

It was actually an Islamic Jihad rocket that struck the hospital parking lot.

I have more confidence in this comprehensive analysis. But at 34,000 words it gets tedious at times.

From Start to Finish, Major Media Got the Tragic al-Ahli Hospital Blast Exactly Right. It Now Looks Like the Munition That Hit the Hospital in Gaza— Causing a Massacre—Indeed Came From Israel.

Media critics and mea culpas from some outlets aside, a journalistic analysis of how media reported the tragedy at the al-Ahli reveals lessons—not errors—as well as the likely truth of what happened.

sethabramson.substack.com

For those without a few hours to spend on this, I have copied the Summary. You might also want to read the Conclusion and A Note to Readers.

Summary​

An intensive, comprehensive, ten-day curation and macroanalysis of reliable major-media reports from the around the world—including the United States, the United Kingdom, France, Australia, Spain, Israel, and Qatar—reveals, with high confidence, that the munition that struck the al-Ahli Hospital in northern Gaza on October 17, 2023 was fired from Israeli territory by Israeli forces.

Data regarding casualty counts (both killed and wounded) following the explosion was substantially reliable when and as it was released by the Palestinian Ministry of Health (PMH), an entity that has for years been relied upon by the international community—including governments, NGOs, major-media outlets, and subject-matter experts. In contrast, following the tragedy at al-Ahli the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) engaged in what appears in retrospect to have been a systematic campaign of deceit that included false casualty counts, doctored evidence, mistranslations, the omission and even obfuscation of inculpatory evidence, gross misinterpretation of multimedia, and disingenuous or even offensive rhetoric.

While the precise origin-point of the killer munition in this case remains unknown, all extant data points at either a Tamir interceptor missile with an 11kg warhead fired from a confirmed Iron Dome installation less than two miles east of Nahal Oz, Israel, or a 155mm artillery shell from a self-propelled howitzer fired from Nahal Oz itself. Nahal Oz is a kibbutz that is under a mile from the border between Gaza and Israel.

All of the foregoing is substantiated by videos (corporate-media and citizen-journalist), audio (corporate-media and citizen-journalist), time-stamp analyses, geolocations, Doppler readouts, forensic analyses of trace evidence, testimonial evidence, and repeated patterns of conduct by the principals involved in the event.

Media critics in the West are factually wrong in opining that U.S. major media “took the word of a terrorist group” in its coverage of the al-Ahli tragedy. In fact, U.S. media coverage of the event was careful, measured and correct—honoring the best traditions of professional journalism despite an environment in which news consumers wanted hard questions answered with ease. Major media was hampered by misinformation and in some cases disinformation fed to it by the IDF, as well as other actions taken by the IDF to ensure that its false narrative about the October 17 explosion at al-Ahli Hospital would triumph in the court of public opinion.
*******

 

[FireFighterHil]

Cause the author Seth Abramson has NO political or ideological agenda.... SURE

 

[SmokyPeat]

I have more confidence in this comprehensive analysis. But at 34,000 words it gets tedious at times.

You're free to believe whatever you like, but the overwhelming consensus of western intelligence agencies and the OSINT community is that the Qassam rocket was fired by Islamic Jihad from the cemetery next to the hospital.