It's the Batteries, Stupid!

[WarpedOne]

Their "EV" cell, with a projected 400 wh/kg in 2016, is only at 600 cycles

That may not be as bad as it sounds.
Depends on actual conditions under which those 600 cycles were obtained and how exactly would a battery pack made of such cells behave.

600 cycles of a 100 mile battery is bad. Only ~55k miles before <80%NOC
600 cycles of a 600 mile battery is *good*, ~300k miles before <80%NOC

The devil hides in details...

 

[JRP3]

Yes, and there a quite a few real world details missing...

 

[JRP3]

Aquion getting a lot of press lately:
Startup Aquion Energy shows off the next generation of its battery for solar and the grid Tech News and Analysis
Update: Aquion Energy Wins Strategic Funding in Its Recent $38M Round : Greentech Media
Aquion Energy Reveals Second-Gen AHI Battery Technology, 40% Increase In Energy | CleanTechnica
Battery support for renewable sources announced by Aquion

 

[adiggs]

I've not read further than your links JRP3, but I do like what I read. I've got some contact info submitted to see what one of their battery systems would cost, and whether they're really shipping and ready to deliver. I like that it's not just an academic exercise, but also apparently real batteries being built and really available for purchase. That's so different from most of these

 

[JRP3]

The new product, developed by the University of Córdoba, has a power "far superior" to that of any other technology available on the market, a fact that "minimizes the percentage of wasted energy during use." If a lithium ion battery (the most advanced to date) has a density of 180 Wh / Kg, one of graphene over 600 Wh / Kg. That is, three times the power of current best technology on the market.

http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2014/12/04/547f577fca474183058b4578.html

Translated:
https://translate.google.com/transl...f577fca474183058b4578.html&edit-text=&act=url

 

[ScepticMatt]

I see a pattern here. Oversell the benefits of some new chemistry, undersell li-ion chemistry.
Saw the same with other companies promoting solid-electrolytes, lithium sulfur, metal-air, graphene,...
So wake me up when they have market ready cell samples.

For example their claim that 180 Wh/kg being the "very best at the moment" is clearly wrong (way beaten by Panasonic)

As for their claims about their battery..

"Enabling 1000 km ev range"
"600 Wh/kg"
"Charge in under 8 minutes" (to what state of charge?)
"up to 77% cheaper" (from what?)

Suuure

 

[tomas]

One has to understand the language of research scientists. To them, "proven" means proven it is physically possible, not that it is scaleable or cost effective or even practical. That's where their job ends. Rightfully so. So we should never interpret academic discovery as any more than that. The less glorious but more profitable work is commercializing, which only happens if technology is really worthy.

 

[redevries]

I see a pattern here. Oversell the benefits of some new chemistry, undersell li-ion chemistry.
Saw the same with other companies promoting solid-electrolytes, lithium sulfur, metal-air, graphene,...
So wake me up when they have market ready cell samples.

For example their claim that 180 Wh/kg being the "very best at the moment" is clearly wrong (way beaten by Panasonic)

As for their claims about their battery..

"Enabling 1000 km ev range"
"600 Wh/kg"
"Charge in under 8 minutes" (to what state of charge?)
"up to 77% cheaper" (from what?)

Suuure

1000 km, in 8 minutes.... You'd need your own energy plant to make that happen...

 

[JRP3]

I'll give them partial credit for at least publishing an energy density number instead of just saying "X times better than current lithium".

 

[ThosEM]

From Edmunds:


Will Imported Oil Give Way to Imported Batteries?

Link didn't work for me but googling the title returns an article from 2008. Old news?

 

[JRP3]

Silicon nanofibers blah blah blah.... show me the battery....

This paper-like material is composed of sponge-like silicon nanofibers more than 100 times thinner than human hair. It could be used in batteries for electric vehicles and personal electronics.

The nanofibers were produced using a technique known as electrospinning, whereby 20,000 to 40,000 volts are applied between a rotating drum and a nozzle, which emits a solution composed mainly of tetraethyl orthosilicate (TEOS), a chemical compound frequently used in the semiconductor industry. The nanofibers are then exposed to magnesium vapor to produce the sponge-like silicon fiber structure.

http://ucrtoday.ucr.edu/27263

 

[Matias]

well, it's basic research. They are not claiming to have produced battery.

 

[Zzzz...]

Been a big fan of aluminum-ion batteries for years. Al-ion could have potentially way better specific energy/energy density while being cheaper to produce than li-ion.

Anyhow here is new formulation of al-ion: 7,500 cycles without any loss of capacity, 1 min charging time and cells itself are flexible.

Ultra-fast charging aluminum battery offers safe alternative to conventional batteries

 

[FlasherZ]

They mention its early days, and they don't address energy density... Seems to be exactly like every other 'new battery' article. Sample cells to Elon, please.

 

[Zzzz...]

they don't address energy density...

Well according to Oak Ridge National Laboratory "theoretical energy density for aluminium-ion batteries is 8140 W-hr/kg in comparison to lithium-ion's 1462 W-hr/kg"

So potentially al-ion is much more energy dense(gravimetric density) than li-ion. And this research might spark an interest in al-ion development, as result better funding could speed up al-ion commercialisation. BTW, abstract claims 3kW/kg power density, resulting in ~1 min charging time.

And 7500 cycles without degradation with excellent power density while using only carbon and aluminum for electrodes is quite an achievement by itself.

PS. Still waiting for an article to become available, hopefully today.

 

[JRP3]

They pretty much talk about everything except energy density. I'm guessing there is a reason for that.

 

[InTheShadows]

They pretty much talk about everything except energy density. I'm guessing there is a reason for that.

Which probably prompted Elon's latest tweet:

@elonmusk: Battery "breakthroughs" need to state power *and* energy density (not the same thing), plus how long they last. They usually fail on energy.

 

[roblab]

Which probably prompted Elon's latest tweet:

@elonmusk: Battery "breakthroughs" need to state power *and* energy density (not the same thing), plus how long they last. They usually fail on energy.

And you know that IF they have a better battery, Tesla will be the first automotive company to test it and use it and then make it.

 

[JRP3]

They responded to my question:

Stanford Precourt Institute for Energy 26 minutes ago
From the Nature paper: "The present Al/graphite battery can afford an energy density of ~40Wh/kg (comparable to lead–acid and Ni–MH batteries, with room for improvement by optimizing the graphitic electrodes and by developing other novel cathode materials) and a high power density, up to 3,000W/kg (similar to supercapacitors). We note that the energy/power densities were calculated on the basis of the measured ,65mAh g–1 cathode capacity and themass of active materials in electrodes and electrolyte."

 

[JRP3]

Lithium sulfur with reasonable cycle life http://www.hybridcars.com/study-new-lithium-sulfur-battery-could-replace-lithium-ion/