It's the Batteries, Stupid!

[brianstorms]

New battery patent ARGONNE NATIONAL LABORATORY 05/28/2013 ->> " ANL-IN-11-024 " ¿reduces costs by 50percent?

(1-x)LiFePO4·LixTix(PO4)δ


"* The process by which the compounds are prepared is simple and straightforward, uses inexpensive precursors, and does not
involve high energy consuming steps;
* Materials show increased energy density and cycle lifetime;
* No carbon coating is needed, which saves a processing step and reduces costs by 50 percent; and
* The materials can be added at low cost without changing current scalable cathode manufacturing processes"

Here's a link to the PDF of a flyer/brochure/press release from ANL.

it's not a patent. It's a patent application, 20130071737. But it's certainly interesting!

 

[castigador55]

Energy density? C rates? Cycle life?

according to scientists at Argonne: (1-x)LiFePO4·LixTix(PO4) "Materials show increased energy density and cycle lifetime" compared to a conventional LiFePO4 battery


but this is even more chilling: KW22SolarServer

* ZSW has designed the cells, developed the manufacturing process and produced a small sample series in the 18650 format.
* 1100 watt/kg
* 85% of the initial capacity After 10,000 complete charging and discharging cycles with a complete charge and discharge cycle per hour (2C)

10000 cycles equals about 2 million miles in a Model S (savings of 130,000 dollars in fuel)
or 770,000 miles in a Nissan Leaf. (saving $ 50,000 in fuel)

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Here's a link to the PDF of a flyer/brochure/press release from ANL.

it's not a patent. It's a patent application, 20130071737. But it's certainly interesting!

yeah interesting but this is much more interesting KW22SolarServer

 

[JRP3]

The cycle life becomes less meaningful once it exceeds the life of a vehicle by a large margin. I notice they don't mention specific energy, wh/kg, which is more important than cycle life at this point.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The cycle life becomes less meaningful once it exceeds the life of a vehicle by a large margin. I notice they don't mention specific energy, wh/kg, which is more important than cycle life at this point.

I agree. Existing a123 cells have been tested in 2007 at 100%DOD and 1C charge/discharge and still had more than 85% capacity left after 5000 cycles.

Pushing that to 10k cycles doesn't matter much for cars since 5000 cycles even in a relatively small pack like the Spark's 20-21kWh pack already gives 400k miles of life.

The energy density matters a lot more.

 

[WarpedOne]

Jup, gimme 500Wh/kg even if it only lasts for 1000 cycles (== Model S with 520 mile range/charge and 520k miles lifetime).
You need 10k cycles only if you must charge every day. You must charge every day only if you have a small pack.You must have a small pack if energy density is low.

 

[Eberhard]

those cells are rated for 1000w/kg powerdensity not energydensity. this may be as little as 80Wh/kg typical for LiFePo/LiTi

 

[dpeilow]

Recently tweeted by Oxis Energy - developing their 400+ Wh/kg cells.

This is coming from their ongoing cycling test.

 

[Zzzz...]

Recently tweeted by Oxis Energy - developing their 400+ Wh/kg cells.

And looks like they are close to actual commercialization of the cells! Oxis Energy got a manufacturing partner, GP Batteries from Singapore. Sure they would need cathode material supplier, but looks like they are working hard to bring lithium sulfur cells to the market.

Interesting twist, at the time I was researching who is Tesla second li-ion supplier, I saw couple seaport declarations of li-ion cells shipments to Tesla from Singapore. And it is hard to find relatively big li-ion producers other then GP Batteries there.

 

[JRP3]

The Windsor Star reporter Chris Vander Doelen spoke with J. Gary Smyth, General Motors' executive director of Global Research and Development. Smyth told Vander Doelen, "Today there are prototypes out there with 400 Watt-hours per kilogram."

http://green.autoblog.com/2013/06/1...ut-300-mile-evs-with-high-energy-density-bat/

 

[Zzzz...]

New graphene-based supercapacitors rival lead-acid batteries | KurzweilAI
60 Watt-hours per liter ~= 1m*1m*1m cube for 60kWh supercapacitor. That should easily fit underneath Model S if we give battery 5 to 6 inch height.
Too bad specific energy is unknown.

 

[Sublime]

New graphene-based supercapacitors rival lead-acid batteries | KurzweilAI
60 Watt-hours per liter ~= 1m*1m*1m cube for 60kWh supercapacitor. That should easily fit underneath Model S if we give battery 5 to 6 inch height.
Too bad specific energy is unknown.

I come up with 8 inches in height based on the wheel base and track, so still a bit to go but shockingly close to feasibility. This closes the gap from orders of magnitude away to just small incremental improvements. Very cool.

 

[Zzzz...]

Lithium iodine battery, Li-I[SUB]2[/SUB], 330Wh/kg, no signs of capacity loss after 200 cycles, could be made into flow battery.

Interesting possibility, one can home recharge battery for daily commutes, but pump active material at the filling station for longer range trips.

Watered up: aqueous iodine doubles Li-ion battery density | Industrial Minerals


PS. Looks like the prices they are talking in the article are prices of materials produced specifically for lab experiments.

 

[vfx]

A team of Berkeley Lab battery researchers led by Elton Cairns has invented an improved lithium/sulfur (Li/S) cell that, for the first time with the sulfur-based technology, offers both long cycle life and a high discharge rate in addition to the inherently low cost and light weight of Li/S batteries. Tests show that the Berkeley Lab Li/S cell had an estimated specific energy of nearly 500 Wh/kg, more than double that of current Li-ion cells which run around 200 Wh/kg.

http://m.macnn.com/fullarticles/13/12/03/new.cells.also.remove.conflict.minerals.from.construction.process/

 

[cwerdna]

Not sure if this news about Envia has been posted...
Court documents reveal DOE-backed Envia isn’t the breakthrough battery startup it appeared

Summary:

Once promising battery startup Envia is facing two lawsuits that allege not only does its tech belong to other companies, but its lost its GM deal and hasn’t been able to turn its battery into a product

 

[Electroman]

Doesn't surprise me. Their claims were overly unrealistic and their CEO & CTO statements all were attention grabbing sound bites. And then suddenly they went into a radio silence around Feb last year and haven't heard a beep from them for 22 months.

It wouldn't surprise me if their plan all along was nothing more than to get some quick investor attention, make some quick bucks and then declare bankruptcy. Haven't we all seen those types ?

 

[Zzzz...]

The Envia story is a sad one. I have little doubt that they have created 400Wh/kg cells. It is possible with current li-ion tech if one uses high energy density cathode coupled with silicone anode. In a nutshell problem seems to be that Envia got silicon anode material from Asahi Kasei, kept quiet about the fact, and after that tried to reverse engineer material or create their own version but failed. And this is why GM bailed out, Envia were unable to show full recipe for high density cells creation.

Mess with NanoeXa cathode material is a different story. And truth could be very well on the Envia's side. Well it is very well possible that Kumar got ideas about layered spinel Mn cathode material while working for NanoeXa, but that NanoeXa never developed any commercially viable tech while Envia succeeded in doing so. There are lot of research in academia for that tech, so it is not like just one or couple companies working on it, here is an example of published paper: Composite ‘Layered-Layered-Spinel’ Cathode Structures for Lithium-Ion Batteries

It wouldn't surprise me if their plan all along was nothing more than to get some quick investor attention, make some quick bucks and then declare bankruptcy. Haven't we all seen those types ?

Have you read Katie Fehrenbacher story? They were trying to sell company to Asahi Kasei/Samsung/etc.

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In doing so they do believed that their tech is a commercially viable one. No way they would hope to fool Samsung/Asahi battery experts with a pure scam. Envia do have some real tech, but problem is that that tech is not good enough to sell the company for the price Envia wanted.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Beat me to it. I just saw this today. What this means is that the chance of a 200 mile Gen III competitor from GM is almost zero given they were depending on this tech to beat Tesla.
http://insideevs.com/general-motors...ils-to-recreate-breakthrough-battery-results/

 

[cwerdna]

On the subject of Envia again...

Collapse of Battery Startup Envia: What Really Happened
The mysterious story of the battery startup that promised GM a 200-mile electric car Quartz -- quite long. I haven't read this yet.

 

[bint2k]

Looks like GM won't be coming out with a 200 mile car anytime soon =)

On the subject of Envia again...

Collapse of Battery Startup Envia: What Really Happened
The mysterious story of the battery startup that promised GM a 200-mile electric car Quartz -- quite long. I haven't read this yet.

 

[VolkerP]

Why do I have to think of "get-rich-quick" internet scams every time someone announces the final battery chemistry breakthrough? Investors are more than willing to fund the venture, hoping to undercut mainstream battery development trends by several years - only to get burnt in the not so long run.