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Jaguar i-pace vs Model X

boywonder

Member
Aug 25, 2017
144
553
London
Who else saw Jaguar's videos on YouTube comparing the performance of the i-Pace to the Model X?

In it, they test the 0-60-0 performance of their car against the Model X. No surprises that the Model X loses given it's extra (1 tonne ?) weight. It's both out-dragged off the start and suffers from having more weight to a stop at the end of the test.

In fact they test against two model X's; a 75 and then against a 100 with similar results. No surprises that they didn't test against the P100D! But you could argue the price differential wouldn't have been fair anyway.

I'm not a Tesla fanboi (recognising many things that could be better), but I do love my Model S, and what Tesla has done to shake the other manufacturers out of their complacency and inertia.

I wish Jaguar had worked to promote their car on the basis of what an amazing car it is. Instead of comparing their car to the best selling EV SUV on the market, which happens to be a Tesla, based on a single performance statistic that has little or no basis in the real world.

Had they chosen any other metrics... charge speed, lack of charging network, no autopilot, they would have been dead in the water, super long warranties, free charging... the list just goes on.

What would stop me buying a Jaguar?... the lack of charging infrastructure, having to rely on their dealer network, and the fact that they are a car company rather than a tech company where internet connectivity and OTA updates are something that they may/will offer because Tesla does.

To be fair to Jaguar, they have responded to Tesla's challenge with an amazing car (at least on paper and in terms of looks), and I wish them well.

But I wont be buying one... not for at least a year or two until someone puts in a decent rapid charging network to rival what Tesla have done.
 
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NerdUno

Member
Dec 18, 2016
652
893
Charleston, SC
I'm wondering about your dealer network dig. You must live in a big city with a Tesla Service Center. For the rest of us who are hours away from the nearest service center, a dealer network is a big plus when the car breaks down, has a flat tire, or even needs routine service.
 

boywonder

Member
Aug 25, 2017
144
553
London
Sorry about the duplicate post - I didn't find the other one.

I'm not a physicist but I'm not sure I agree with your point about weight being immaterial.

Momentum is a function of mass x velocity. If abs brakes optimise braking, then the maximum braking force will be available, but you will still need more force (for longer) to slow down the heavier car compared to a lighter car. ABS can't give you more braking force to offset the weight.
 

thegruf

Active Member
Mar 24, 2015
2,278
1,975
indeterminate
I'm wondering about your dealer network dig. You must live in a big city with a Tesla Service Center. For the rest of us who are hours away from the nearest service center, a dealer network is a big plus when the car breaks down, has a flat tire, or even needs routine service.

With this comment you're assuming that the entire Jaguar dealership network will be trained to support EVs.
You might need to think again on that given purported sales of 15,000 pa annually - to the world market.

I would expect regional specialist centres, so lottery if you are lucky enough to be near one.
 

Tiger

Active Member
Oct 31, 2016
1,647
1,215
Estonia
With this comment you're assuming that the entire Jaguar dealership network will be trained to support EVs.
You might need to think again on that given purported sales of 15,000 pa annually - to the world market.

I would expect regional specialist centres, so lottery if you are lucky enough to be near one.

I belive Jaguar is going to sell same amount or more of I-pace than they sell all of their other Jaguar models combined. This means that they will definitely sell and service it at most of their dealerships / service centers. For example, we have a very good network of Porsche, Audi, and Jaguar dealerships/service centers here in Baltic region, but none for Tesla. And the 50+kw CHaDeMo/CCS charging network fits all and even Tesla has no superchargers here.
 

Peteski

Active Member
Oct 2, 2017
3,510
2,269
UK, Milton Keynes
Only a spotty 13 year old would choose the iPace over a Model X based on that silly drag race video, so that doesn't really deserve any more comment.

Weight does very much affect braking performance as the increase in tyre/ground friction with weight is non-linear i.e. you never get quite enough extra friction to counter the higher longitudinal force required to brake the extra mass. Same goes for cornering performance with lateral grip too. Tyre choice and ABS calibration can also affect stopping distances. For example a more conservative ABS setting could result in a slightly longer stopping distance in the dry, while providing a more balanced anti-skid performance in the wet or other low grip surface. Braking power itself from the discs/calipers is rarely an issue (braking from 60 mph) unless considering fade in repeated heavy braking cycles, which would not be relevant in this one-off braking test.

So would I choose an iPace over a Model X? No, simply because we specifically wanted a large SUV with maximum luggage and cabin space. The MX is much bigger than the iPace, so the only common ground is that they are both high performance EVs. But even if they were comparable in size, the UK Jaguar dealer network is hardly renowned for its customer service (many people steer away from Jaguar on that basis alone!) and the dealers currently know literally nothing about EVs. Plus there's no bespoke high speed charging network available. In this case, Tesla is the experienced EV manufacturer and Jaguar are the new kids. So I'd want to see at least a couple of years worth of history before showing any interest - much as I did with Tesla.

But it's good to see other high performance EVs finally coming to market. I'm not tied to Tesla in any way beyond my 4 year PCP MX deal, so I'd welcome some serious competition in that timescale. I don't want to have to replace my MX with another identical MX, as that would be boring. I'd want either an all-new second generation Tesla MX or an alternative premium brand large electric SUV. I'm hoping there will be great choices from all the big players by 2022. But I do hope Tesla can stay on the cutting edge as they have brought so much to the backward thinking car industry with the MS and MX in recent years.
 
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Peteski

Active Member
Oct 2, 2017
3,510
2,269
UK, Milton Keynes
I belive Jaguar is going to sell same amount or more of I-pace than they sell all of their other Jaguar models combined.

Even if that wild speculation turned out to be true, I really don't think they are geared up to produce the iPace in anything like that sort of volume. If they did, then their whole company would have to make a dramatic overnight change. In reality, I expect demand for the iPace will be strong, but supply will be very limited over the next few years. They are more likely to just keep hiking the price to suit.
 

WannabeOwner

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2015
5,758
2,893
Suffolk, UK
I wish Jaguar had worked to promote their car on the basis of what an amazing car it is. Instead of comparing their car to the best selling EV SUV on the market, which happens to be a Tesla, based on a single performance statistic that has little or no basis in the real world.

I too thought the comparison daft ...

Only a spotty 13 year old would choose the iPace over a Model X based on that silly drag race video, so that doesn't really deserve any more comment

... exactly. The different was trivial. OK so its marginally faster than an MX which is already quicker than most cars on the road ... I have no idea why Jag choose to make a comparison against another EV, maybe:

They fear that they are losing Jaguar die-hards to Tesla?
rather than
They think they can steal new customers from ICE Brand X, Y and Z?

What would stop me buying a Jaguar?... the lack of charging infrastructure, having to rely on their dealer network, and the fact that they are a car company rather than a tech company where internet connectivity and OTA updates are something that they may/will offer because Tesla does.

I've passed comment in other Jaguar threads, so apologies if you have already seen my thoughts:

Fast charging only matters for people that need it. I only user Supercharger about one day a month, (and at 27K miles a year I'm not just tootling to the shops and back!)

Sure, it would be a pain to have to charge for twice as long ... but more fast charging will be along shortly, Tesla Superchargers are not available on every route than I need them at present anyway, but of course more Tesla superchargers will along soon too ...

The upside I expect of a Jag would be better coach building.

I think the Dealer network is a plus too ... I have nothing good to say about Tesla's whole back office, let alone their service, and the additional hassle of the extra distance makes that worse - although I have used their ranger service to come and get my car, so i suppose its as broad as it is long on that basis.

I'm not sure that OTA is hugely significant. It is for Tesla because they ship their cars with the software half-finished, because they can then use OTA. Of course if OTA fails to send your Tesla an update (a few times) they just cross you off the list for any further updates until you get around to complaining ... but for other brands it could be the "cover story" to get you to take the car in for a service, and pay for the otherwise bored-stiff mechanics to have something to do.

Maybe OTA will turn out to be a great thing by keeping maps up to date (with minor things like roadworks) such that AP is augmented - so maybe OTA is crucial! . VW have never even offered me a map upgrade, paid or otherwise, in the decade or more than I drove one ... so they at least will have to change their spots

My biggest worry about Jag (or any other EV Marque) is that they have very little experience of EV, so how well will they make the Battery Management System?, the Degradation over 10 years?, the Taper when fast charging? (One demo video looked like it tailed off embarrassingly - compared to the advertised performance)

And they won't be selling them in huge numbers, because Jag are competing with every other wannabe-EV maker on the planet, except Tesla, for batteries.

I liked the Marketing Bods strap-lines though:

Electrifying performance
Electrifying styling
Jaguar electrifies
 

Peteski

Active Member
Oct 2, 2017
3,510
2,269
UK, Milton Keynes
I have no idea why Jag choose to make a comparison against another EV, maybe:

I'm not sure that OTA is hugely significant. It is for Tesla because they ship their cars with the software half-finished, because they can then use OTA. Of course if OTA fails to send your Tesla an update (a few times) they just cross you off the list for any further updates until you get around to complaining ... but for other brands it could be the "cover story" to get you to take the car in for a service, and pay for the otherwise bored-stiff mechanics to have something to do.

Maybe OTA will turn out to be a great thing by keeping maps up to date (with minor things like roadworks) such that AP is augmented - so maybe OTA is crucial! . VW have never even offered me a map upgrade, paid or otherwise, in the decade or more than I drove one ... so they at least will have to change their spots

The Tesla comparison was obviously a marketing exercise in brand placement. Tesla is big news in the EV world, so tagging your new EV onto "Tesla" is guaranteed to generate far more views than comparing against some other ICE SUV. Especially when your own ICE SUVs are a lot slower!

I think OTA becomes critical once your vehicle is basically a computer on wheels. You wouldn't accept a PC without OTA software updates and this is basically the same. There is an awful lot of software running in a Tesla, so updates (both bug fixes and improvements) are inevitable and OTA is by far the most convenient way of performing them. I think OTA will become the norm across the whole car industry in the next decade. Tesla are just showing the way as often the case.
 

WannabeOwner

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2015
5,758
2,893
Suffolk, UK
Yes, fair points.

My view on OTA (i'm a software engineer) is that it encourages far too many updates from the Vendor "because they can" and allows a desperate feature-race against other Vendors, which might be OK for a phone bu I don't think it is in a Car.

Maybe MAPs etc. will required that sort of short-turnaround-time, but I'd prefer a once / twice a year update for anything else so that it was properly tested, documented, and Vendor staff trained to know what to expect. Tesla doesn't do any of that well enough, currently. The poor quality regression-testing, alone, that Tesla has done on OTA is shocking (we're a small company, nothing like the resources that Tesla has, but we had a regression error, of the type that Tesla have shipped numerous times in the last 18 months, there would be blood on the carpet, so IMHO Tesla has absolutely no excuse ...)

My phone changing willy-nilly is one thing (although i don't like it ...), but in my car I do not want to discover that something has changed, without decent enough prior warning, as I'm driving along - as happens currently if, say, my Wife is first to the car and accepts an update and when I next drive I have no idea that anything has changed, as I will not have read the ChangeLog (such as it is ...). The formality of a service-centre-visit, and the customer-liaison person going through the "We've changed the brake pads, try to brake gently for a while" and "Important that you, and anyone else who drives the car, knows that it can now Fly as well as Drive ..." would be better, I think.
 

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