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Kevin Sharpe's decreased Roadster range
- Thread starter Kevin Sharpe
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I would like to know this too...
It appears that car has a birthdate of May 2010, so that's ~52 months. Apparently there were a couple of storage periods for the car defined as "3+ months". Assuming a total of ~6 months, that's about 46 months. Apparently the schedule was 2 trips a month, sometimes 3. That leaves an opportunity spanning from 92 to 138 range charges.
That's a lot... so Kevin, if you'd like to clarify that number it might help Roadster owners to better understand if "frequent" range charging could potentially impact their pack.
supersnoop
Tesla Roadster #334
dhrivnak
Active Member
I guess the question we want an answer to is what is a lot?. About once a month I take a long trip and perform a range charge. Is that excessive? Should we really limit our range to STD miles? I was under the impression that a once a month range charge is fine just do not do it every day.
While not as bad as Kevin my range is on the low side with my CAC hovering about 141 now in my 5.5 year old Roadster.
While not as bad as Kevin my range is on the low side with my CAC hovering about 141 now in my 5.5 year old Roadster.
Just curious? What is the longest time your car has spent fully charged in range mode? Overnight? A few days? Less than an hour?
Mitrovic
Member
This is bad. Kevin you are hurting yourself, you are hurting Zero Carbon World, you are hurting the Mainpine Group.
I am really astonished that you do not see this?
I listened to the short BBC radio piece. The second Roadster owner interviewed admitted that he was fully aware of the potential for battery degradation, and he did not seem particularly upset about it. Kevin said he "hoped" the battery warranty would cover his battery degradation even though it was made clear that the the warranty did not cover it. The interviewer seemed generally reasonable with her questions and the points she made.
It was pointed out that the battery warranty Nissan adopted a few years after the Leaf went into production specifies that when the battery indicator drops "below" 9 out of 12 bars, meaning to 8 bars or 66% of the total than Nissan will replace or refurbish the battery. So you can lose up to 32% of the Leaf battery capacity before the warranty goes into effect? Is that accurate? Kevin has only lost 19%, if I recall his posts correctly.
All in all not a very damning interview. Of course it only used a small fraction of what the two Roadster owners no doubt actually said. But after listening to it I came away thinking that not much of a case was made for their being a serious problem with current EV battery warranties.
It was pointed out that the battery warranty Nissan adopted a few years after the Leaf went into production specifies that when the battery indicator drops "below" 9 out of 12 bars, meaning to 8 bars or 66% of the total than Nissan will replace or refurbish the battery. So you can lose up to 32% of the Leaf battery capacity before the warranty goes into effect? Is that accurate? Kevin has only lost 19%, if I recall his posts correctly.
All in all not a very damning interview. Of course it only used a small fraction of what the two Roadster owners no doubt actually said. But after listening to it I came away thinking that not much of a case was made for their being a serious problem with current EV battery warranties.
shrink
Member
That Nissan LEAF warranty is within 5 years/60,000 miles, if the capacity drops to 8 bars, which is 66.25%, Nissan will restore the car only to around 70% capacity, or 9 bars, which is actually 72.5% capacity.
Thus far, AFAIK, all battery warranty replacements have been with new batteries and 100% of original capacity, with the most recent replacements being with the 2015 LEAF heat resistant chemistry, BUT the Nissan LEAF warranty only stipulates a restoration to 9 bars/72.5%. They won't keep dropping in new batteries forever.
dhrivnak
Active Member
I don't have a definitive answer to that today... but I would guess in 2010 when the problems began, a few.
Also please understand that I can't possibly answer every question asked in this forum... I'm actively working with a group of battery engineers trying to understand why Tesla undertook work on my battery in 2011, why I had depressed range in 2010, and why my range continues to plummet (CAC today 127.65).
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Ok but an educated guess would be helpful. I've probably only range charged maybe 6-10 times in almost 4 years of overnership and have a CAC value of 151. A few could be 5 for some and 100 for others. It would help others understand how much of an impact if any frequent range charging has on degradation.
It doesn't seem to be that hard of a question to answer, but the question keeps going unanswered, which is only making folks more curious. I think all you're asking for is a ballpark. More than 10? More than 25? 25 to 50? More than 50? Seems pretty easy to give an estimate.
aminorjourney
presenter, blogger, auto journalist, geek, mom, wo
I've kept my nose out of this one to be honest, but I find it curious that it appears Kevin is using EPA figures when stating original range (245 miles) That's based on an economy figure of 21.7 kWh per 100 miles.
Regardless of whether you believe EPA range figures are indicative of real-world range or not (I don't) if EPA figures are used to calculate starting range then we should use those same figures to calculate theoretical maximum range now. Using that figure and the energy Kevin's car indicates from last night's test run, I come out with 204 miles.
I'm not going to get on any side here. But it's a distinction I believe we need to understand, especially since the delta is ~ 40 miles of range.
My 2011 Nissan LEAF is one of the highest-mileage cars here in the UK. It travels on average 80 miles a day, with a five minute top-up rapid charge in the morning as part of a high-speed commute (My wife drives it to Cardiff and back from Bristol on the freeway and prefers carefree life at 70 to life at 50). It currently has 62,300 miles on the clock.
Back in the spring, we lost the first capacity bar, and according to the third-party LEAFSpy app, we'll lose the second one fairly soon. Battery capacity is now about 80 percent of its original amount.
When new, I believe I managed about 84 miles on one trip, but that was really darned hard. A complete push. (That's better than EPA, but less than NEDC). A more realistic range for me when new was around 70 miles at sensible speeds, 60 at the "cruisin' at 70".
Recently, I made a trip from Bristol to Norwich, a total of about 260 miles, and had my daughter with me. We took it steadily, and I set the cruise control to 50 on the freeway. Despite climbing some fairly large hills (by UK standards) on the M4 between Bristol and Reading, I passed up on three chances to charge and made it to the Reading services DCQC -- a total of 72.5 miles from my house -- with 9 miles estimated range remaining.
A few days ago, I tried doing the same trip in my LEAF, but after 43 miles it was obvious I wasn't going to get the mojo working to get the distance I needed. I stopped and used the DCQC. Does this mean my LEAF has magically lost ten miles of range in a few weeks? No. It was just the simple fact that the weather was different, the traffic was different and I guess perhaps I was too. Maybe I missed a couple of key light changes and lost valuable energy. Maybe the tires weren't the same temperature.
In reality, I've driven a wide range of electric cars in my time as a journalist. I've managed to achieve some crazy ranges, and flatten the battery flat in no time. My daily driver (my wife's Volt, because she is driving my LEAF) manages 50 miles on 9.6 kWh of electricity if I'm really careful with my right foot. On a bad day, I can flatten it in 25.
I think when we're looking at range tests and suspected range loss cases, we need to look at more than just a few trips. Ideally, we need multiple trips, on a variety of roads.
It would be good too if Kevin could state the range he managed when new (sorry if he's already said it and I've missed it in this mammoth thread).
[To add a back story, and a disclaimer because I believe in stating previous connections. I did, briefly, work for ZCW (End of 2012 start of 2013) but decided that life in PR didn't suit my journalistic style and I wasn't enjoying my time there. Since then, I've had no professional relationship with Kevin or ZCW and have probably spoken to him a handful of times at events.]
Regardless of whether you believe EPA range figures are indicative of real-world range or not (I don't) if EPA figures are used to calculate starting range then we should use those same figures to calculate theoretical maximum range now. Using that figure and the energy Kevin's car indicates from last night's test run, I come out with 204 miles.
I'm not going to get on any side here. But it's a distinction I believe we need to understand, especially since the delta is ~ 40 miles of range.
My 2011 Nissan LEAF is one of the highest-mileage cars here in the UK. It travels on average 80 miles a day, with a five minute top-up rapid charge in the morning as part of a high-speed commute (My wife drives it to Cardiff and back from Bristol on the freeway and prefers carefree life at 70 to life at 50). It currently has 62,300 miles on the clock.
Back in the spring, we lost the first capacity bar, and according to the third-party LEAFSpy app, we'll lose the second one fairly soon. Battery capacity is now about 80 percent of its original amount.
When new, I believe I managed about 84 miles on one trip, but that was really darned hard. A complete push. (That's better than EPA, but less than NEDC). A more realistic range for me when new was around 70 miles at sensible speeds, 60 at the "cruisin' at 70".
Recently, I made a trip from Bristol to Norwich, a total of about 260 miles, and had my daughter with me. We took it steadily, and I set the cruise control to 50 on the freeway. Despite climbing some fairly large hills (by UK standards) on the M4 between Bristol and Reading, I passed up on three chances to charge and made it to the Reading services DCQC -- a total of 72.5 miles from my house -- with 9 miles estimated range remaining.
A few days ago, I tried doing the same trip in my LEAF, but after 43 miles it was obvious I wasn't going to get the mojo working to get the distance I needed. I stopped and used the DCQC. Does this mean my LEAF has magically lost ten miles of range in a few weeks? No. It was just the simple fact that the weather was different, the traffic was different and I guess perhaps I was too. Maybe I missed a couple of key light changes and lost valuable energy. Maybe the tires weren't the same temperature.
In reality, I've driven a wide range of electric cars in my time as a journalist. I've managed to achieve some crazy ranges, and flatten the battery flat in no time. My daily driver (my wife's Volt, because she is driving my LEAF) manages 50 miles on 9.6 kWh of electricity if I'm really careful with my right foot. On a bad day, I can flatten it in 25.
I think when we're looking at range tests and suspected range loss cases, we need to look at more than just a few trips. Ideally, we need multiple trips, on a variety of roads.
It would be good too if Kevin could state the range he managed when new (sorry if he's already said it and I've missed it in this mammoth thread).
[To add a back story, and a disclaimer because I believe in stating previous connections. I did, briefly, work for ZCW (End of 2012 start of 2013) but decided that life in PR didn't suit my journalistic style and I wasn't enjoying my time there. Since then, I've had no professional relationship with Kevin or ZCW and have probably spoken to him a handful of times at events.]
Here are the initial results from yesterdays logs...
X is Brick #, Y is the SOC change between the snapshots I took yesterday.
Source Data Before Drive
Source Data After Drive
Source Data Before-After-Compare
And three cars compared...
X is Brick #, Y is the SOC change between the snapshots I took yesterday.
Source Data Before Drive
Source Data After Drive
Source Data Before-After-Compare
And three cars compared...
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supersnoop
Tesla Roadster #334
It looks like brick 8 is discharging faster than the others, while brick 29 is not charging up as full as the others. With two bricks degraded, I'd expect those two bricks to cause, at most, a 2%, or about 4 mile, decrease in actual experienced range. That makes me think any additional loss would be based on normal wear across the entire battery.
On your 165 mile trip, how did you determine that you were at 4% remaining? With 44.34kWh expended, I'd expect you to be closer to 18% remaining.
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