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Lies about Electric Cars
- Thread starter vfx
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- Electric Vehicles
While there is no doubt some real research behind some of the statements in the article, it frustrates me that the spin is so decidedly negative. Sure, the first round of this generation (which is arguably the first mass-market generation) of EVs won't be a sales revolution. But I don't think Nissan or GM or anyone else for that matter is expecting that. I suspect they are counting on this first round to generate enthusiasm and establish credibility for the larger second round. Even if every Leaf and Volt they manufacture is sold, the raw numbers won't be revolutionary. But why is the author even arguing that point? No one claimed otherwise as far as I know. But selling out of stock, regardless of how low the volume is, will be notable for the next round.
Plus, I think the author fails to recognize that this round will be very popular in automotive vanguards such as Los Angeles, where people have no qualms with spending top dollar for cars that show up the neighbors. The absurd popularity of the Lexus HS sedan here speaks to that point. Sure, it's ugly and not much more luxurious than a Corolla with leather, but it's like the premium version of your neighbor's Prius, which he in turn uses to feel better than his neighbor driving a regular sedan. And seriously, the Volt and Leaf are hardly top dollar as far as Los Angeles is concerned.
I expect to see these things everywhere in Los Angeles and almost immediately upon release. I'll be so surrounded by them that I'll almost need a window sticker on my MINI E saying "welcome to the party." I jest. But seriously, Volts and Leafs will be extremely popular among the Prius/HS contingent here--and there are a lot of those.
Clean diesels? Seriously? A clean diesel cannot even hope to compete with a hybrid on coolness factor let alone a full-electric.
America is not the right place for electrics? Is this guy crazy? I'll reiterate: America, especially in areas of great automotive enthusiasm, is a place where people want the cool new things. It's why I drive an electric MINI and it's why I have a reservation for a Model S. I don't drive these things because I need to. I drive them because they are so cool. As I've said before, electric cars are the forefront of coolness and probably will be for a while. Yeah, it's vulgar, but it's just the way people are. You won't see me driving a diesel... ever.
So, sure, cost and availability are important factors. But saying electric cars will disappoint? That's just a failure.
Jaff
Active Member
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
You have to be careful too of even counting 10% charging losses in an EV. Some tests, like the EPA test, actually measure electricity used at the plug, not the battery, so charging losses are already included in the efficiency figure.
Also don't forget the 20% loss for refining gasoline (which is never included in gasoline/diesel car emissions figures). That has to be included in any calculation comparing EV and ICE emissions.
DrTaras
R254->R725->S->X->M3->M3P-->R2020?
one-stop-shopping web site that dispels the long-tail-pipe theory?
I am looking for a one-stop-shopping web site that dispels the long-tail-pipe theory in easy to understand & oversimplified terms for the lay public. A goto website that I can send doubters to for some easy to digest factoids. As EVs are gaining in popularity, I hear more and more people parroting this theory in one form or another. I found this website, Holes in the Long Tailpipe but does not quite do the job. Any suggestions?
Additionally, in the same over-simplified manner, can anybody point me to a web site that says how much of CA's electricity comes from what sources and while you are at it, if there is a similar web site does the same thing, state by state? :wink:
I am looking for a one-stop-shopping web site that dispels the long-tail-pipe theory in easy to understand & oversimplified terms for the lay public. A goto website that I can send doubters to for some easy to digest factoids. As EVs are gaining in popularity, I hear more and more people parroting this theory in one form or another. I found this website, Holes in the Long Tailpipe but does not quite do the job. Any suggestions?
Additionally, in the same over-simplified manner, can anybody point me to a web site that says how much of CA's electricity comes from what sources and while you are at it, if there is a similar web site does the same thing, state by state? :wink:
Norbert
TSLA will win
The fact that solar energy cost has gone down by a factor of 2 in the last few years, and the expectation that with support for research, this development is expected to continue in the next few years (or perhaps even by factor of 4, Steven Chu), makes most of the other arguments moot. The nice thing about electric cars is that the ones built and sold today will be able to use the solar energy of tomorrow. I think this is one of the main reasons this topic isn't discussed very much anymore.
I'm not sure if this is simple enough, but the diagram is fairly simple, if a little too information-dense for a casual reader: California's Energy Almanac.
Another page at the same site has a very simple table at the bottom left: California's Major Sources of Energy. Mostly natural gas; nuclear is a distant second. Coal is a tiny amount.
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Notice that the graph says "Electricity (2009) In-State Generation". Much of the electricity California uses is generated out-of-state, much of that by burning coal.
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
This doesn't meet the "easy to understand" criteria, but it's awfully comprehensive: http://images.pluginamerica.org/EmissionsSummary.pdf. It is an overview of about 40 studies showing that overall emissions of electric vehicles, including upstream emissions, are far less than those of gasoline vehicles.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
http://www.epa.gov/cleanenergy/energy-and-you/how-clean.html
This is the best resource I have found for just general electricity mix (not the most up to date though). Just enter your zip, choose your power company and it gives you the mix that the company uses.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evghg.shtml
The EPA fuel economy site also has a temporary page that is similar (pops up on the CO2 section of every EV fuel economy page). They will likely replace it with some kind of tool that directly gives the equivalent CO2 emissions for each vehicle depending on your location (easiest way is just to tie into the other epa site).
California's annual "net system power" report has the mix that includes all imports (table two is their best estimate of the annual mix), to address bobw's point:
http://www.energy.ca.gov/2009publications/CEC-200-2009-010/CEC-200-2009-010-CMF.PDF
As of 2008, the CA mix is (ordered by highest percent):
Natural Gas 45.7%
Coal 18.2%
Nuclear 14.5%
Large Hydro 11.0%
Renewables 10.6%
It compares favorably to the national mix (natural gas is roughly swapped with coal, much less nuclear, and much more hydro and renewables).
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Norbert
TSLA will win
Another thing to repeat here is that due to the energy requirements (producing, transporting, refining, protective military, etc) of oil, petroleum-driven cars have a long tailpipe as well.
In any case, even though today an EV's effective CO2 emission is not zero, its oil consumption is close to zero. This will not only make oil last longer, but also (fortunately or unfortunately) reduce the cost of gas, due to reduced demand.
Once there are EVs in a number that matters, that is. And again, by the time that EV numbers matter, there is a good chance of solar power already being cheaper than current electricity (grid parity). Therefore I think the current political goal (even aside from reducing oil consumption) should be to accelerate EV adoption so that by the time solar power (and other renewables) will be deployed at large, the EV market share is large enough to take advantage of it. But even if someone has doubts about solar power, reducing the oil consumption is a given necessity as well as a guaranteed outcome.
In any case, even though today an EV's effective CO2 emission is not zero, its oil consumption is close to zero. This will not only make oil last longer, but also (fortunately or unfortunately) reduce the cost of gas, due to reduced demand.
Once there are EVs in a number that matters, that is. And again, by the time that EV numbers matter, there is a good chance of solar power already being cheaper than current electricity (grid parity). Therefore I think the current political goal (even aside from reducing oil consumption) should be to accelerate EV adoption so that by the time solar power (and other renewables) will be deployed at large, the EV market share is large enough to take advantage of it. But even if someone has doubts about solar power, reducing the oil consumption is a given necessity as well as a guaranteed outcome.
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DrTaras
R254->R725->S->X->M3->M3P-->R2020?
Thanx guys! These were my favs and will go a long way in the land of laymen (one of which I am) to help the rEVolution!
1) California's Major Sources of Energy {thx howabout2]}
2) Total Electricity System Power {thx howabout2}
3) How clean is the electricity I use? - Power Profiler | Clean Energy | US EPA {thx stopcrazypp}
4) Greenhouse Gas Emissions for Electric Vehicles {thx stopcrazypp}
1) California's Major Sources of Energy {thx howabout2]}
2) Total Electricity System Power {thx howabout2}
3) How clean is the electricity I use? - Power Profiler | Clean Energy | US EPA {thx stopcrazypp}
4) Greenhouse Gas Emissions for Electric Vehicles {thx stopcrazypp}