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Long-Term Fundamentals of Tesla Motors (TSLA)

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No one is scared that some company will come along with a better search algorithm and dethrone Google...

People repeatedly get stuck on the point that some new battery will come out and make all of Tesla's progress irrelevant. I don't see that to be a threat at all.

I'm not a battery expert, but from what I have read, there isn't going to be a huge breakthrough in battery technology that is production capable for quite a while. By the time new battery technologies mature Tesla will be much larger and have way deeper pockets. My guess in the future - assuming Tesla isn't already the leading battery researching entity - is that there will be a team dedicated to finding any promising battery tech and acquiring that company.

Look at Google, they are buying up companies left and right and staying at the bleeding edge of new tech. I just don't see Tesla being blindsided by some tech breakthrough, Elon has them moving and iterating way too fast.

Furthermore, the Gigafactory has $5 Billion budgeted for equipment replacement after only 5 years. What if this money is not meant to replace equipment with old tech, but is a contingency for them to adapt any new battery technology that emerges? just a thought.

Agree with you but I still see GF as very high risk. Risk is not due to threat of new technologies, but due to heavy capital sink. If macroeconomic situation changes, this large investment may become very heavy burden for Tesla.

On the other side, that risk is exactly why I like Tesla so much, not afraid to have a go at beating the odds
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As long as batteries continue to be composed of an annode, a cathode, and electrolyte wrapped in a shiney case, then we will be fine. If at some point someone develops power storage that amounts to something outside of that scope then I might be worried, but as far as I have seen all battery tech revolves around that basic concept since the discovery of the battery.

What you should fear is making batteries obsolete... Since that is the only way Tesla would be negatively impacted... Or potentially someone inventing a new battery and refusing to share with Tesla. These are the only two areas of concern that I might have.
 
RE: future battery tech... consider also that the current tech, lithium ion, has been studied and studied, in both manufacture and usage, and at least in the case of Tesla, a great deal of "tricks & traps" have been accumulated and learned about over the years, which is why the Model S/X battery pack is constructed the way it is, and why we see things like "do not charge the battery to full, charge it up to 90% unless you are going on a trip" and so on. There are a myriad of special things that have been learned about lithium ion batteries.

So much is known about lithium ion, that Tesla can offer their 8-year/80% replacement warranty, because they know the batteries are that good.

Any new battery tech that is, in 2014, at the white paper or one-time demonstrator stage, is years away from becoming a serious rival to the current tech.

If some boffin in a university has thought up a cool new chemical arrangement for a battery, the vagaries of mining the elements, setting up the factories, producing the batteries, finding customers (car companies) who are ready to deploy, and learning the equivalent wealth of knowledge (that there is right now about lithium ion) about living with these batteries and how they perform over multiple years, has to start at Square One. it will take years of concerted field research before the equivalent is known about the new tech.

So do not worry about any news item about new battery tech.
 
Mods: I am going to take this off topic for a second: Good (but painful) lesson about high risk/reward stock/companies. Many people on this forum, including some well know members, had quite a bit of money instock/options in GTAT. This company makes sapphire glass. It was rumored that it would be used in the new iPhone 6 and other apple products. In the big Apple iPhone 6 release it became clear they were not using GTAT products. The company filed for bankrupcy today causing a lot of financial pain.

Be careful with your investments. Do not put money into high risk/reward stocks that you can not afford to lose. If you go 'all in' on something the risk is that you will be all out.
 
Mods: I am going to take this off topic for a second: Good (but painful) lesson about high risk/reward stock/companies. Many people on this forum, including some well know members, had quite a bit of money instock/options in GTAT. This company makes sapphire glass. It was rumored that it would be used in the new iPhone 6 and other apple products. In the big Apple iPhone 6 release it became clear they were not using GTAT products. The company filed for bankrupcy today causing a lot of financial pain.

Be careful with your investments. Do not put money into high risk/reward stocks that you can not afford to lose. If you go 'all in' on something the risk is that you will be all out.

Very sorry for the loses, financial pain is as bad as any other pain.

Tesla is one of those, high risk/high reward, imho.
 
Doubling times

Some readers may appreciate a tutorial on how to compute doubling times. Doubling times are a handy way to think about dramatic long term growth by understanding how many time volume must double and how long each doubling takes.

Elon Musk anticipates that Tesla will sell 500,000 cars in 2020. Tesla will sell about 35,000 in 2014. So how many times must Tesla double its volume of 35 to get to 500? This is represented by k in the following equation:

500 = 35 * 2[SUP]k

[/SUP]Dividing both sides by 35 and taking logarithms, we get:

log(500/35) = log( 2[SUP]k [/SUP]) = k * log(2)

Solving for k, the number of doublings is

k = log(500/35)/log(2) = 3.8365

Now Musk believes this can be done in 6 years or 72 months. Dividing 72 months by k doublings gives a doubling rate of 18.77 months.

To accomplish this, capacity must double on average nearly every 18 to 19 months. Thus, if 25% of maximum plant capacity is utilized, Tesla has about 37 months bring new plant capacity online or curtail growth. If 50% is currently utilized, Tesla has only 18 months to secure new plant capacity or curtail growth. A basic consequence of such aggressive growth is that at anytime, Tesla must have or be queuing up additional plant capacity that is at least four times its current operating capacity. This is why the Gigafactory is so large and why a second Gigafactory must break ground within 12 to 24 months. Remember 18 months after the first Gigafactory, Tesla needs double the Gigafactory. The scale may seem outrageous compared to current production, but since a plant of this scale takes 4.5 years (3 doubling times) to queue up we need to think about 8 to 16 times current operating scale.

And when will this doubling time let up? Unit sales should reach 500,000 by 2020 and I'd like to see it reach 10,000,000 by 2030. So now you should be able to compute for yourself that in the next decade Tesla must keep doubling every 27.77 months to reach the 10 million mark, roughly 10% market share. The way to look at Tesla's capabilities is not how many cars can it sell, but how quickly can it double and how long will it go on doubling.

Doubling times can help us think more clearly about the growth opportunities and challenges ahead for Tesla. Let me know if you appreciate this tutorial.
 
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To accomplish this, capacity must double on average nearly every 18 to 19 months. Thus, if 25% of maximum plant capacity is utilized, Tesla has about 37 months bring new plant capacity online or curtail growth. If 50% is currently utilized, Tesla has only 18 months to secure new plant capacity or curtail growth. A basic consequence of such aggressive growth is that at anytime, Tesla must have or be queuing up additional plant capacity that is at least four times its current operating capacity. This is why the Gigafactory is so large and why a second Gigafactory must break ground within 12 to 24 months. Remember 18 months after the first Gigafactory, Tesla needs double the Gigafactory. The scale may seem outrageous compared to current production, but since a plant of this scale takes 4.5 years (3 doubling times) to queue up we need to think about 8 to 16 times current operating scale.

And when will this doubling time let up? Unit sales should reach 500,000 by 2020 and I'd like to see it reach 10,000,000 by 2030. So now you should be able to compute for yourself that in the next decade Tesla must keep doubling every 27.77 months to reach the 10 million mark, roughly 10% market share. The way to look at Tesla's capabilities is not how many cars can it sell, but how quickly can it double and how long will it go on doubling.

Doubling times can help us think more clearly about the growth opportunities and challenges ahead for Tesla. Let me know if you appreciate this tutorial.

Thank you for this post. I've been trying to think of a way to explain this.

Has anybody here ever worked for a company that doubled in size every 12 - 27 months year after year after year? If you have, you know that chaos reins.

It's what I've been saying for some time. And what Elon has been consistently saying. At TESLIVE 2013 he was asked What is Tesla's biggest risk going forward? His response was "being able to ramp up fast enough." Keeping a company on the tracks when it's doubling every 18 months is crazy hard to do. If it takes 3 - 4.5 years to build a plant, as jhm pointed out, you need to build that plant 8x bigger than your current operating scale! Where do you get capital to build something 8x bigger than current size? How do you hire enough people that fast? How do you build enough service centers? And stores? Superchargers? Will we see some dilution? Yes. It's just a question of how much.

Every time I hear some dumb analyst start talking about demand I just shake my head. The waiting list for M3 will circle the earth twice. Mark my words.
 
Doubling times are a handy way to think about dramatic long term growth by understanding how many time volume must double and how long each doubling takes.

Elon Musk anticipates that Tesla will sell 500,000 cars in 2020. Tesla will sell about 35,000 in 2014. So how many times must Tesla double its volume of 35 to get to 500?

I would be surprised if Tesla follows the path of doubling as your equation suggest.

My expectation for Tesla capacity growth is:

1. Keep adding incremental capacity to Fremont, until it hits press capacity of 500,000 cars/year. These incremental increases are fast and will not be doubling, more likely to be in the orders of magnitude of current capacity.

2. Few years before Fremont is at full speed, build a new plant or acquire some existing plant. New manufacturing plant can be done in a year, if it is a replica.

Imho capacity growth is more risky as it relates to people hiring rather than equipment capacity.


Has anybody here ever worked for a company that doubled in size every 12 - 27 months year after year after year? If you have, you know that chaos reins.

Every time I hear some dumb analyst start talking about demand I just shake my head. The waiting list for M3 will circle the earth twice. Mark my words.

I was not that lucky to ever be a part of a growing business, but I was on many sinking ships :biggrin: Similar chaos there.

Agree with you that the growth rate is scary. My main concern is about the rate of hiring, it is unbelievable - check Tesla adds. Not sure how that influx of new people is managed.
 
The doubling time in an interesting concept, but I am thinking that each double will take much longer than the last to achieve. I am not saying they won't still fully ramp up to 10 million cars at some point, I just think 2030 might be a little too quick to hit 10M cars.

What I will add to this line of thinking for what it is worth, Tesla as a company had about 1,000 employees at the start of Model S production in June 2012. Now a little over 2 years later they are over 10,000 employees strong (can't state how I know that number... sorry). So from an employee standpoint they have doubled a little more than 3 times in the span of just 2 years.

Car production followed a similar jump. We started with 50 a week and are now at 1000 a week which is a little more than 4 doublings in 2 years. However the next doubling 800 to 1600 will likely take 6-8 months by itself, and then 1600 to 3200 will likely take about 1 year or maybe more. So the doubling times are going to take longer and longer on each stretch and this is all still just operating under the roof of Fremont and not taking any other factory builds into account. Getting to 10,000 a week (500k a year) is going to stretch all the way out to 2019 at the earliest (based on Elon's most optimistic timeline). So your doubling rate average stating 18 to 19 months is already calculating in that slide outward without even realizing it. Because going from 1k to 2k will only take about 12 months... 2k to 4k is likely to take a year and a half. 4-8k is likely to take 2 years. And so on.
 
Now a little over 2 years later they are over 10,000 employees strong (can't state how I know that number... sorry).
There was a video online a few months ago (June?) where someone in the Tesla design department was speaking in LA and said they had over 8,000 employees. Since that time they have taken steps to more than double production at Fremont and announced the Gigafactory. So 10,000 isn't a huge surprise. It would be interesting to see the employee/car ratio compared to other automakers. My gues is eventually they will be lower in manufacturing, higher in R&D, and wayyyyyy higher in sales and service.
 
There was a video online a few months ago (June?) where someone in the Tesla design department was speaking in LA and said they had over 8,000 employees. Since that time they have taken steps to more than double production at Fremont and announced the Gigafactory. So 10,000 isn't a huge surprise. It would be interesting to see the employee/car ratio compared to other automakers. My gues is eventually they will be lower in manufacturing, higher in R&D, and wayyyyyy higher in sales and service.
Remember world wide SC stores factory in Europe etc
 
There was a video online a few months ago (June?) where someone in the Tesla design department was speaking in LA and said they had over 8,000 employees. Since that time they have taken steps to more than double production at Fremont and announced the Gigafactory. So 10,000 isn't a huge surprise. It would be interesting to see the employee/car ratio compared to other automakers. My gues is eventually they will be lower in manufacturing, higher in R&D, and wayyyyyy higher in sales and service.

Was just covering myself, since I didn't think it had been stated somewhere publicly (like in a video or some such). ;)
 
The doubling time in an interesting concept, but I am thinking that each double will take much longer than the last to achieve. I am not saying they won't still fully ramp up to 10 million cars at some point, I just think 2030 might be a little too quick to hit 10M cars.

What I will add to this line of thinking for what it is worth, Tesla as a company had about 1,000 employees at the start of Model S production in June 2012. Now a little over 2 years later they are over 10,000 employees strong (can't state how I know that number... sorry). So from an employee standpoint they have doubled a little more than 3 times in the span of just 2 years.

Car production followed a similar jump. We started with 50 a week and are now at 1000 a week which is a little more than 4 doublings in 2 years. However the next doubling 800 to 1600 will likely take 6-8 months by itself, and then 1600 to 3200 will likely take about 1 year or maybe more. So the doubling times are going to take longer and longer on each stretch and this is all still just operating under the roof of Fremont and not taking any other factory builds into account. Getting to 10,000 a week (500k a year) is going to stretch all the way out to 2019 at the earliest (based on Elon's most optimistic timeline). So your doubling rate average stating 18 to 19 months is already calculating in that slide outward without even realizing it. Because going from 1k to 2k will only take about 12 months... 2k to 4k is likely to take a year and a half. 4-8k is likely to take 2 years. And so on.

You're absolutely right that the growth rate and doubling times will slow over time. The mathematics of such grow models become more involved. One such model worth knowing about is the logistic growth model. This model assumes that the growth rate is proportional to the untapped potential. So as Tesla realizes it potential, the unrealized potential and hence the growth rate declines. If there is interest I could do a tutorial on logistic growth.
 
The doubling time in an interesting concept, but I am thinking that each double will take much longer than the last to achieve. I am not saying they won't still fully ramp up to 10 million cars at some point, I just think 2030 might be a little too quick to hit 10M cars.
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Senior management is planning on 500k by 2020 and I'd be surprised if they weren't planning on 10M or more by 2030. They have doubled every year since the company was founded. Some years more than doubled. I realize it's harder when you get to the scale they're at now like you pointed out. I suspect management's biggest time sink is spent on planning and managing this ridiculous growth rate. The rate has limits. Management feels those limits will come much quicker than demand limitations (from competition, ICE, etc.). That's why they're not pursuing patent violations. I'll be surprised if they don't reach 10M by 2030.

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You're absolutely right that the growth rate and doubling times will slow over time. The mathematics of such grow models become more involved. One such model worth knowing about is the logistic growth model. This model assumes that the growth rate is proportional to the untapped potential. So as Tesla realizes it potential, the unrealized potential and hence the growth rate declines. If there is interest I could do a tutorial on logistic growth.

I'd be interested in a logistic growth model tutorial. Whenever a journalist asks Elon whether he's worried about competition (it's a frequent question when talking about making drive trains for Toyota and Daimler) Elon just says the market is so big it doesn't matter. I think that's the environment where a logistic growth model would eventually be relevant? It's complicated somewhat by the fact that Tesla may spread into other markets like energy storage.
 
Logistic Growth Model

Given the strong response to my last tutorial on doubling times, I'm happy to offer another tutorial on logistic growth models. The mathematics gets more involved, but I have attached an interesting worksheet to illustrate how these models work. It's not really my intention to propose a realistic model of Tesla's long-term growth, but to illustrate the mathematical modeling choices one might consider toward such an end. Moreover worksheet models can be a wonderful tool to gain insight and to understand the implictions of simple assumptions.

To gain an appreciation for the logistic growth model, we need to review the exponential or geometric growth model and recognize how unrealistic it can be. The basic idea of the exponential model is that growth is always proportional to current size and that rate of growth does not change. So let X(t) represent a quantity that grows exponentially over time. Let dX(t) represent the change in X over a short period of time, dX(t) = X(t+1) - X(t). So we can represent growth as

dX(t) = b*X(t) or equivalently dX/X = b

We note a discrete solution to this is

X(t) = X(0) * (1+b)[SUP]t
[/SUP]
And the continuous solution is

X(t) = X(0) * exp( b*t )

Such a model may be suitable for say the total number of cars sold globally each year. The global growth rate is around, say, 3%. It can vary a bit from year to year and certainly from one reagion to another, but globally over longer stretches of time its pretty reasonable. One reason why it can be reliable is that it is infact a low growth rate and is in line with real growth in the global economy. On the other hand, China has seen double divit growth in its economy and is one of the hottest auto markets. Will this be sustainable for several decades? Or is it possible the China may reach some lev of saturation and the auto market begin to slow down? So the most fundamental problem with the exponential growth model is that the growth rate is assumed to persist indefinitely. This may be reasonable for the global auto market, but it is not realistic for a market or company in unsustainably high growth.

So we turn to the logistic growth model. Here we suppose that X has a maximal growth rate X is really close to zero, but that this rate diminishes as gets closer to its maximal potential. A standard model has X take values from 0 to 1, where 1 represents it full long run magnitude. Specifically,

dX = b*X*(1 - X) or dX/X = b*(1 - X)

So we see that when X is close to 0 this is nearly the exponential model. In the initial phase of growth we see nearly exponential growth. How ever as growth accumulates 1-X becomes an increasingly small number and the growth rate declines. When X = 1/2, then the growth rate is just half of the maximal rate. This is the inflection point. Past this point the rate of growth slows down so quick that the curve begins to level out. This curve is also called an S curve. It starts out flat, curves up, curves down, then levels out.

This standard model has a nice continuous solution, the so-called logistic function:

X(t) = exp( a + b*t )/(1 + exp( a + b*t ))

This is a two parameter model. The parameter b is the maximal growth rate, and a is used to set your initial value, specifically

X(0) = exp(a)/(1+exp(a)) so a = log( X(0)/(1 - X(0) )

So if you know where your starting and the rate of growth in the expontial growth phase, you can readily use this model. Suppose your long run view is that Tesla will max out at 10million cars. It is starting at 35,000 in 2014. So our initial value is 0.0035 assuming t is the number of years past 2014. Also lets suppose the maximum growth rate is 50% per year. So,

a = log( 0.0035/ 0.9965 ) = -5.65
b = 0.50

To determine where this puts us in 2020, t=6, compute

a+bt = -5.65 + 0.5*6 = -2.65
X(6) = exp(-2.65)/(1+exp(-2.65)) = 0.0660

Thus, by 2020 this model put Tesla at 660,000 cars, 6.6% of the way to 10 million. You can easily put this formula into a spreadsheet and play around with parameters until you get to something that comes close to your expectation. Personally, I'm not buying 660,000 cars, so I'll want to play with this more.

In the attacted worksheet, I want to show how to that this modeling framework further. In particular, I am not comfortable with the assumption that the is some maximum number of cars for Tesla to grow into. Specifically, the auto market will continue to grow at a few percent each year for the forseeable future. Tesla could ultimately capture 10% market share and keep growing with the industry. So how can we integrate both a long run industry growth rate with a logistic transition into 10% market share. I propose the following logistic grow model.

dX / X = (b - g)* ( 1 - M(t)/M ) + g

Here b is my maximum growth rate for Tesla, g is the long run growth rate of the global auto maket, M is the long run market share for Tesla and M(t) is the market share at time t. So the first term of the growth model is logistic growth upto hitting the long run market share, and the second term is the long run growth rate.

In my worksheet, I assume that in 2014 the global market is 70 million cars (anyone have a better number?) and g = 3%. I assume Tesla will deliver 35k this year and will ultimatel gain 10% market share. The tricky part is getting the right value for b. I find that b = 57% gets Tesla to 505k cars in 2020 and just over 10M by 2030. Moreover, the next couple of years look about right. So if nothing else, this model basically fits my expectations for the next 20 years.

I invite you to play with the model and find scenarios you find interesting. Let me know what you find, or if you have any comments, questions or suggestions. I hope you find this modelling framework and tool useful.
 

Attachments

  • Logistic Growth.xls
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Wow wish I could give you more rep for that post because... Wow... Thanks for that.

What I would remind you is that 500k in 2020 is sorta the internal pessimistic view of the company. JB had a presentation expecting something like 700k by 2019 and Elon recently said they could maybe do 500k by 2019. So your first hit of 660k might not be too incorrect from reality.

I think the big uncertainty is going to be when they try to build the Second factory, since their announcement of such a thing will happen WAY before they come close to capping factory 1 and people are going to yet again think they are crazy and there will be no demand for this added growth. Look how many people doubt them getting 500k by 2020. So hopefully they will be in a position to self fund from here on out and we can wade through this second auto factory announcement which I expect to happen either in 2015 or 2016.
 
Thanks, chickesevil! 700k would be awesome. I've got to crank the max growth rate up to 67% to hit 721k! You can imagine how chaotic the planning process must be. They've got to coordinate everything around an ambitious schedule like that, build in lots of contingencies and hope that 5000 little peices all show up on time.

The cool thing about models like this one is it can set a lot of little targets to coordinate activity around. Basically it's a flight plan. Once you have a trajectory like this, you can back into things like building out Gigafactories and auto facories at just the right time. You can negotiate with suppliers and hire staff at the right time. You can work out cash flow and back into any needed financing. I think Tesla is focused on self-financing through free cash flow. That's the rocket juice right there. When the market figures out that they've got enough juice to go all the way, the stock price will go way up. My thought is the way analysts should approach Tesla is to model cash flow well enough that they can see multiple self-financing paths to Tesla's objectives. It's not good enough to opinine that Tesla is going to need to raise lots of capital. They should know Tesla well enough to see how it is posible and trust that management sees that way and a couple smarter ways too.

So it's tough doing this work on the outside because you don't really know what anything costs. So my goal in modeling is plausibility. Can I see a path that is reasonable? If I worked for Tesla I could optimize it, but on the outside I must use a lot of imagination. At any rate, I worked out a cash flow model for the whole series of Gigafactories. One new Gigafactory per year gets Tesla to enough battery packs to energize half the cars sold in 2030. I'm not comfortable releasing this model, but I believe the have enough cash on hand and commitments for partners to pull off the whole damn thing. My next steps are to model the EV disruption in in the auto industry. This goes well beyond the spreadsheet I just shared to look at how quickly the industry can be disrupted and what kind of market share Tesla can walk away with. Basically that 10% market share is not something to be assumed, it is to be determined by how quickly Tesla disrupts. The faster they move the more share they can grab. So as I get a grip on how to model that, then I can back into how much Gigafactory they will need to do it. To recap, I've modeled Gigafactory cash flow to supply half the autos in 2030. That may be more batteries than are needed for major disruption. If I know the flight plan, I can work out the right amount of fuel. I guess you could say I'm trying to reverse engineer Tesla.