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Long-Term Fundamentals of Tesla Motors (TSLA)

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It is an interesting discussion overall for TSLA. They are fledgling = True, they are innovative designers =True, they are disruptors to the norm = True, they have convinced me of the VALUE of the product being a Model S owner.! Couldn't be happier but I look at the company based on standard Technical analysis it simply does NOT justify a share price anything like $US148 at present little own $280.00+. As a recession is upon us ( opinion ) the opportunist in me suggests that a probable fall of TSLA will see around $US101 is the coming stampede to the door during the next recessional crash. Given a new Product Gen3 appeals to a completely new and much large market segment the market share numbers prove meaningless however the company itself needs to be able to weather the recession as I would expect many keen buyers will crash out when their own line of credit dies. Sales of Model S and Model X will collapse for a time - its is inevitable. The real question is has the management factored in this blow in the cashflow. I look at the timeline for introduction and physical deliveries of the newer GEN 3 is likely to drop right in the middle of a recession that will see the very worst case conditions for initial orders. Combined with artificially low crude pricing the combination is very tricky. It doesn't dissuade me from the awe I have for the technology , reliability, lifespan that has been created and to that end I personally want to place orders for 3 x Gen 3's in RHD as soon as available but the key question is will they be there to be able to deliver?
An Aussies point of view.:biggrin:
 
It is an interesting discussion overall for TSLA. They are fledgling = True, they are innovative designers =True, they are disruptors to the norm = True, they have convinced me of the VALUE of the product being a Model S owner.! Couldn't be happier but I look at the company based on standard Technical analysis it simply does NOT justify a share price anything like $US148 at present little own $280.00+. As a recession is upon us ( opinion ) the opportunist in me suggests that a probable fall of TSLA will see around $US101 is the coming stampede to the door during the next recessional crash. Given a new Product Gen3 appeals to a completely new and much large market segment the market share numbers prove meaningless however the company itself needs to be able to weather the recession as I would expect many keen buyers will crash out when their own line of credit dies. Sales of Model S and Model X will collapse for a time - its is inevitable. The real question is has the management factored in this blow in the cashflow. I look at the timeline for introduction and physical deliveries of the newer GEN 3 is likely to drop right in the middle of a recession that will see the very worst case conditions for initial orders. Combined with artificially low crude pricing the combination is very tricky. It doesn't dissuade me from the awe I have for the technology , reliability, lifespan that has been created and to that end I personally want to place orders for 3 x Gen 3's in RHD as soon as available but the key question is will they be there to be able to deliver?
An Aussies point of view.:biggrin:

Interesting perspective, but the whole point is based on world economy going into a recession starting now and that the oil prices will stay at current levels for another 2-3 years... which, I don't believe... though I could be a fairly optimistic person.
I do think that the fundamentals have not really changed much. Though, I'd like to have a clarity on how well they are executing with the MX release. I believe knowing this helps to understand how well they are able to manage/execute internally, as well as where their focus is for the next 6-12 months period.
 
Interesting perspective, but the whole point is based on world economy going into a recession starting now and that the oil prices will stay at current levels for another 2-3 years... which, I don't believe... though I could be a fairly optimistic person.
I do think that the fundamentals have not really changed much. Though, I'd like to have a clarity on how well they are executing with the MX release. I believe knowing this helps to understand how well they are able to manage/execute internally, as well as where their focus is for the next 6-12 months period.

Nobody seems to believe me, but I think oil prices are low right now to hurt the Iranians and the Russians who's economies are dependent on high oil prices. The Saudis are especially focused on getting rid of Iran's regime and the US wants Putin gone (as well as liking the idea of regime collapse in Iran), so they are cooperating to keep oil prices low to hurt those countries. Before Putin showed he was dangerous to his neighbors, oil prices were manipulated to stay high to hurt China. The Chinese were paying through the nose for oil.

I expect oil prices will go up again when Russia calms down and quits being a problem for the Ukraine and hurting China becomes the target again.

Thomas Friedman came to the same conclusion independently (I found this article after I had come to the conclusion the low oil prices were punishing Putin):
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/15/opinion/thomas-friedman-a-pump-war.html

 
The company posted significantly higher guidance for next year. I guess we'll see how it plays out, hoping they wont underperform constantly like last year, but only time will tell. The model 3 orders are a good sign, but revenue and EPS could have been better... analysts are uneasy https://www.tipranks.com/stocks/tsla
If you are referring to delivery guidance? Tesla had not official announced guesstimates for 2016 prior to yesterday & their track record is poor in this area, 80-90k Model S&X delivery guidance was new info.
Typical financial guidance like revenue, EPS etc.. not provided.
New CFO no longer reporting Free Cash Flow & is now using Operating cash flow?
Gross margins?
 
Nobody seems to believe me, but I think oil prices are low right now to hurt the Iranians and the Russians who's economies are dependent on high oil prices. The Saudis are especially focused on getting rid of Iran's regime and the US wants Putin gone (as well as liking the idea of regime collapse in Iran), so they are cooperating to keep oil prices low to hurt those countries. Before Putin showed he was dangerous to his neighbors, oil prices were manipulated to stay high to hurt China. The Chinese were paying through the nose for oil.

I expect oil prices will go up again when Russia calms down and quits being a problem for the Ukraine and hurting China becomes the target again.

Thomas Friedman came to the same conclusion independently (I found this article after I had come to the conclusion the low oil prices were punishing Putin):
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/15/opinion/thomas-friedman-a-pump-war.html


I cannot imagine a worse situation than failed states in Iran, Russia or both. You might be right but let's not root for this outcome.
 
Perhaps this has been covered previously. Trying to understand this filing.

Tesla Motors - Amended Statement of Beneficial Ownership

Elon has the ability to purchase 8.8 million shares within the next 18 days? According to this SEC filing.

I'm sure the strike price on them are all over the place. But this is interesting. Perhaps the recent price drop over past few months was in anticipation of major "dilution" by him exercising these options. By him making the purchases when the stock was $200 and $150, it essentially confirmed that fear.

I know he's in it for the long haul. But those shares coming into existence + a corresponding decrease is stock value lessens the actual market cap reduction, correct?

Perhaps that explains some of this. Or I'm wrong? Help me out.
 
Perhaps the recent price drop over past few months was in anticipation of major "dilution" by him exercising these options. By him making the purchases when the stock was $200 and $150, it essentially confirmed that fear.
I know he's in it for the long haul. But those shares coming into existence + a corresponding decrease is stock value lessens the actual market cap reduction, correct?
Perhaps that explains some of this. Or I'm wrong? Help me out.


It is still not 100% clear to me if these shares are new shares and will dilute or not.

The SEC filing states :

(a)Amount beneficially owned: 37,193,974 shares which includes (i) options to purchase 8,822,632 shares of Common Stock that are exercisable within 60 days of December 31, 2015 and (ii) 28,371,342 shares of Common Stock held by the Elon Musk Revocable Trust dated July 22, 2003.
(b)Percent of class: 26.5% (percentage ownership is calculated based on 131,424,866 shares of common stock outstanding as of December 31, 2015 and assumes that the shares of common stock underlying the stock options are deemed outstanding pursuant to SEC Rule 13d-3(d)(1)(i)).

That can be interpreted as these that these shares are NOT new shares but already exist and will just transfer ownership to Elon.
Maybe someone who knows more about the definitions in these filings can comment.
 
related and in support of this discussion in the Short Term thread
-----
Quote Originally Posted by Intl Professor View Post
Here's an interesting article showing how flows and eddys, as physics alone, are examples of evolution. Why don't some of you smart guys apply these insights to markets as he has some interesting views of turbulence and eddies.

Rolling stones, turbulence connect evolution to physics

jhm posted response:
Very interesting. I think this applies perfectly to the idea of an experience curve in manufacturing. This curve shows how the cost of producing a unit decreases at a consistent rate with the doubling of cumulative number of units produced. For example the cost per kWh of batteries declines, say, 15% as the cumulative production doubles. (Not sure 15% is the right rate for batteries, but it is a pretty typical rate.) The cost of a good is the resistance or friction in production. As the cumulative volume doubles, the whole supply chain and manufacturing process learns and becomes more efficient. Imaging each little segment in the larger process also declining 15% as experience doubles. So if this experience curve applies to subprocesses, it certainly applies to combinations of pricesses. So the flow through the entire supply chain gets more efficient and the cost of goods come down accordingly.

One implication of the experience curve is that if annual production grows at about the same rate, exponential volume growth, then the doubling times come at a regular interval. Thus, according to the experience curve the price declines expontially in time too. The exponential decline in price can also encourage consumption to grow exponentially which feeds back to perpetuate exponential growth in productuon. So this is why technologies tend to diffuse at an exponential rate until some limiting factor constrains growth.

So Musk is a master of experience curve processes. At a high level he sees revenue growing at about 50% per year, with unit sales growing 60% or more. If unit sales grow 60% and revenue 50%, this allows unit prices to fall 6.25% = 1 - 1.5÷1.6 in a year. Growing production 60% per year implies doubling ever 1.47 = log (2) ÷ log(1.6) years. So every doubling brings about a 9.08% reduction in unit costs. So a 9% experience curve is built into the heart of this company. Tesla Energy will likely have a much faster experience curve than Tesla Motors (proper). In any case, the whole supply chain needs to flow at this pace as well.

It is interesting that bears frequently press the idea that if Tesla wasn't demand constrained, it would be growing faster. This underestimates the challenge of growing an entire supply chain along with Tesla's own manufacturing at rates above 50%. The growth in production needs to be balanced with achieving something like a 6% annual reduction in production costs. To try to grow faster can inflate costs in the short run and make doubling times harder to reach. This is fairly abstract, but I do think that Musk has given careful thought to setting a sustainable pace of growth for EVs. It is ambitious to be sure, but also careful not to try to grow too fast. The rate at which Tesla can grow and the rate at which it can reduce costs are linked.

So Tesla is freely flowing and evolving. Steadily declining production costs are the fruit of doubling cumulative production.
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A very extensive study newly released by Oxford would confirm this assertion.
With a migration of battery to Super-Capacitance storage, along with quantum solar solutions in the pipeline, I believe in 20-30 year timeframe electrical-energy will be a near-free commodity.

How predictable is technological progress?

1-s2.0-S0048733315001699-gr10.jpg
 
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Not sure if this has been posted yet, but Tesla finally has the Tesla.com domain. When you search type in "Tesla.com" you'll be redirected to "Teslamotors.com". Hopefully Tesla will shift to Tesla.com and this will be significant as we all know that Tesla is not a car company after all.
 
There is a history of global players mucking about and making things worse. I agree that failed states would be worse than we have now.

I am an “extinguished professor” according to my Thai born wife. My primarily teaching assignments for over forty years were Soviet government and foreign policy, American foreign policy. Ph.D. fields included international economics, etc.


I couldn’t agree more and your comment reminded me of an old Russian proverb which goes something like this: “if you tangle with a bear you must be prepared to kill it.”


I give Obama generally good marks, and when a retired CIA director says he could not believe the concessions the Iranian’s gave to Obama, that’s very high and credible praise.


On the other hand, when he drew a red line on chemical weapons in Syria that was a mistake and he had to be bailed out by Putin of all people.


Another violation of the proverb’s advice was the hint Ukraine might become a part of NATO. There was a time under Gorbachev when he wanted to be a full-fledged member of NATO which was rejected and only partial relations were formed later but are defunct now. Obama’s assistant secretary for East European Affairs was caught using her cell phone in a Kiev square with rioters protesting the president who was forced to resign. Moral: don’t be caught by a KGB intercept of your cell phone while serving borscht, or whatever, to people who want to overthrow a country’s government on the border with a country that can start a nuclear war in a twinkling. This is not to condone what Russia is doing in Ukraine. I’ve travelled in both countries when they were both part of the Soviet Union and the locals seemed to get along with each other well enough. My Russian teacher, for example, was a Ukrainian and I was once asked where the post office was by a Leningrader, so his accent must have been pretty good.


Speaking of borscht. One of my colleagues was of Ukrainian extraction and at a party with the students’ Russian club he waxed on about how his family had invented frozen food. “In the winter we would make a lot of borscht, then put it outside to freeze so we would have some later when we wanted.” Drunk as he I asked, “is that the origin of the expression—‘don’t eat yellow borscht?'” He didn’t think it was funny, obviously not a skier.
 
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I have a question on the book value for the superchargers. According to the annual reports

WhenLocationsBook valueTotal cars on the roadCost per car
end 201390$25.6M25100$1020
end 2014380$107.8M56780$1900
end 2015584$339.2M107440$3160

As you can see, the average net book value for a supercharger location increased this year dramatically, from under $300k to nearly $600k. Anyone care to speculate why that is? Tesla also plans to open another 300 locations, would it be correct to assume the same average cost as in 2015, approx $175M over the full year?

Finally, looking forward, we can see that the cost per car sold is up quite dramatically each year. Assuming an additional outlay of $175M this year with an extra 80k cars sold, the average price per car sold for the supercharger infrastructure will be around $2700. Is it reasonable to assume Tesla is able to absorb $2700 additional infrastructure cost per model 3 sold? If not, what would a reasonable cost be?
 
I have a question on the book value for the superchargers. According to the annual reports

WhenLocationsBook valueTotal cars on the roadCost per car
end 201390$25.6M25100$1020
end 2014380$107.8M56780$1900
end 2015584$339.2M107440$3160

As you can see, the average net book value for a supercharger location increased this year dramatically, from under $300k to nearly $600k. Anyone care to speculate why that is? Tesla also plans to open another 300 locations, would it be correct to assume the same average cost as in 2015, approx $175M over the full year?

Finally, looking forward, we can see that the cost per car sold is up quite dramatically each year. Assuming an additional outlay of $175M this year with an extra 80k cars sold, the average price per car sold for the supercharger infrastructure will be around $2700. Is it reasonable to assume Tesla is able to absorb $2700 additional infrastructure cost per model 3 sold? If not, what would a reasonable cost be?

Speculation:
- pulling numbers out of their frunks
- Superchargers build-out rate is ahead of demand
- Installation and operating costs are falling so they've reduced value to recognize that the network isn't as valuable.
Code:
Year	Locs	Book	Book/Loc
2013	90	25.6	3.515625
2014	380	107.8	3.525046382
2015	584	339.2	1.721698113
- Basically halved the value per location.