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Long-Term Fundamentals of Tesla Motors (TSLA)

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Sorry jhm, I have to talk you down one more time. The 7-10% improvement is supposed to be inclusive of everything. So you either get cost or energy density or some mix of those, but not both at the same time multiplying together. Use the example of the Roadster - Roadster batteries cost about 40k when they came out, and they were 53kWh, and 1,000lbs, roughly. Model S batteries, 4-5 years later, cost about 40k, are 85kWh, and 1,000lbs. Roughly. So you got your 40% improvement, but it was in density rather than cost - more power, same weight, same price.

Elon Musk has been quoted talking about a 40% increase in density compared to the roadster, but JB Straubel has been quoted saying that for most Model S, the battery cost is less than a quarter of the car, so under $25k for an 85kWh battery.

Now switching over to Model E, they're going to downsize the car, downsize the battery, and focus on saving cost. So maybe you'll end up back at 40kWh or something, costing 13k, and weighing 500lbs.

- Capacity ~ range ~ performance ~ charging mph ~ average C rate. Larger capacities make better cars with the main downside being cost and size, with weight being an additional issue.
- With the Gigafactory Tesla is targeting pricing of comfortably less than $200/kWh and at that point 10kWh costs you $2,000 or less.
- Elon Musk has said that for Gen 3, they're still targeting 200 mile real world range with Supercharging capability.

Now put all of that together. Shrinking the battery to 40kWh would:
- give a maximum drop in price of $4,000.
- Make cold-weather climate control loads more significant, significantly shortening winter range.
- Cut maximum performance.
- Lower maximum Supercharger rate. That could lead to 1 1/2 hour range charging times, especially in difficult conditions.
- Raise average C-rate.

To me, the most important element of long-range BEV is Supercharging. With the volumes Tesla is seeking, in order to avoid contention problems, they need to make Supercharging faster (JB Straubel has talked about an aim of 5-minute Supercharging) and cutting battery capacity would be a backwards step. Combined with the other negatives, lowering capacity simply won't deliver the necessary cost:benefit ratio.

I think that Supercharging determines the minimum spec and that's why Elon Musk can comfortably say that the Gen 3 will have 200 miles range, the same as current Model S 60. I think that when Gen 3 is introduced, the new cell technology will allow Tesla to increase the maximum Model S/X battery capacity and they'll drop the 60kWh Model S/X (if they even offer the 60kWh X).

When Elon Musk was asked about the Gen 3 battery costs and said that the car would be 20% smaller, so the battery would be 20% smaller, many assumed that he was talking about the reducing the capacity by 20%. I think that he was talking about needing an increase in cell energy density in order to shrink the battery, which would naturally decrease the number of cells required for any given capacity and, overall, lower the battery manufacturing cost. At Panasonic's earnings release, when the CEO was talking about being careful in investing in the Gigafactory, one of the issues he raised was that they needed to be able to meet Tesla's requirements for the Gen 3 cells. If I recall correctly Elon Musk has said the overall target is a 40% reduction in battery cost, with 15% improvement coming from the improvements to the cell, and the rest from process and scale at the Gigafactory, believing that they can eventually get a more than 30% reduction in costs from the Gigafactory alone.
 
- Capacity ~ range ~ performance ~ charging mph ~ average C rate. Larger capacities make better cars with the main downside being cost and size, with weight being an additional issue.

The smaller, lighter G3 will achieve similar performance, range, and charge times, with a smaller pack than the S. It's not just about the C rate the pack can charge at, it's about the miles added per C rate, which would be relatively higher with a more efficient vehicle. Say the G3 has a 60kWh pack, it would charge at the same C rate as the 60kWh S, but since it's a more efficient vehicle it would add miles at a faster rate.

I'm expecting the base G3 to have a pack in the 45-50kWh range.
 
Elon Musk has been quoted talking about a 40% increase in density compared to the roadster, but JB Straubel has been quoted saying that for most Model S, the battery cost is less than a quarter of the car, so under $25k for an 85kWh battery.

I was talking about retail cost, which was/is about 40k for each pack. Nobody knows what Tesla's exact cost is/was.

the new cell technology will allow Tesla to increase the maximum Model S/X battery capacity and they'll drop the 60kWh Model S/X (if they even offer the 60kWh X).

Dropping the 60kWh would be counterproductive. In fact, I think/hope they will reintroduce the 40kWh S when they are no longer supply constrained, or if they ever have a demand problem. This may take years to happen, but I think it will and should.
 
Do you know if they can sell-them out of those stores? Or just discuss pricing, point them to website etc.; Maybe those are somewhat hybrid situations- where they aren't allowed to actually conduct the sale and contract but can do most everything else

Stores = they can sell directly out of them ergo they can discuss price and do test drives.
Galleries = they can't sell directly and can't discuss price.

No Hybrids. No kinda pregnant.
 
Analysts slightly bullish on TSLA, not sure what to make of it

Tesla has earned a consensus recommendation of “Hold” from the twenty-three ratings firms that are covering the stock.

The average 1-year target price among brokerages that have issued a report on the stock in the last year is $217.59. Ten equities research analysts have rated the stock with a hold recommendation, six have assigned a buy recommendation and one has given a strong buy recommendation to the company.
This is so different to what I am used with TSLA and analysts and leaves me confused
:confused:.

The confusing bit is that in the past, when a lot of upside was ahead of us, most of the analysts were saying: Sell, overvalued, etc.

Now we are above 200 and analysts are bullish on Tesla. I am still processing this, not sure what to make of it. I feel this pushing me out of my comfort zone. Time to get out?
:crying: I am not ready for that.
 
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Tesla has earned a consensus recommendation of “Hold” from the twenty-three ratings firms that are covering the stock.

The average 1-year target price among brokerages that have issued a report on the stock in the last year is $217.59. Ten equities research analysts have rated the stock with a hold recommendation, six have assigned a buy recommendation and one has given a strong buy recommendation to the company.
This is so different to what I am used with TSLA and analysts and leaves me confused
:confused:.

The confusing bit is that in the past, when a lot of upside was ahead of us, most of the analysts were saying: Sell, overvalued, etc.

Now we are above 200 and analysts are bullish on Tesla. I am still processing this, not sure what to make of it. I feel this pushing me out of my comfort zone. Time to get out?
:crying: I am not ready for that.

64% Institutional Ownership.
 
Lots of people want a cheap electric with no range, which is why Nissan has sold over 120k Leafs. And they have not been as focused on it as Tesla has, yet their sales numbers are much higher.

As I recall, Nissan started a little before Tesla, with some full grown factories, etc.

Interestingly enough, Nissan paid me and several other Tesla owners to tell them why we bought a Tesla instead of a Leaf. This was when Tesla sales were taking sales away from Leaf. I don't know what the others said, because it was an hour-and-a-half private, taped interview. My answer to them was RANGE.

Before the interview I had to keep a daily log, starting charge, miles for each trip, etc., etc. My log showed that I only drove 30 miles per day, *on average*. There's your data. But on three of the days, I drove *over* 100 miles, one day reaching 180 miles. Would a Leaf work for me? No. Does it work for the average person? Well, Some of them.

What I see is that Leaf owners are really really wanting to drive electric, but being cost constrained, they will put up with inconvenience of having to charge while they are out driving. For visible proof, I see in several forums the excitement of getting new charging points all over every city, county, malls, shops, government buildings, on and on. And Nissan also has 50 amp fast charging. The charging is important to them simply BECAUSE THEY NEED IT.

One of my friends has a Leaf. At times he must make a 100 plus mile trip from one business to another. He must plan to stop midway and charge, and sit in his car for two hours. He claims it is no problem, and he loves his less expensive car.

On the other hand, I had previously owned a RAV4EV with a little over 100 miles range. When I went shopping for a car, I did NOT look for the data on what people said I would need. I already knew that 100 miles was not enough, at least often enough that I did not ever want to sit for four hours recharging so I could get home from the airport.

A 40 kWh Tesla may be what "most" people would use, but at least I, personally, would rather pay extra than have range anxiety, or range inability, or range irritation at having to charge while going some where. With the 85, I don't ever even THINK about range.
 
one wonders why on earth S&P ever would consider making this close-to-unprecedented unsolicited assessment. So much so, that the disinterested observer can very understandably be forgiven for thinking "Conspiracy?"

I was wondering how unprecedented this was (as well as wondering along the lines of the rest of your comment.

Fango, I see what you are saying about EV makers potentially prolonging the misconception about needed range. That said, I think Tesla needs to start out as no compromise in reality and perception, and let consumers of their own experience decide what is enough range as the years go by. The other thing to bear in mind, the battery size drives range and performance... a 50 kWh (or even 40 kWh) might do nicely in a light Gen III car, but in the Model S, the performance just wasn't there at least in the eyes of Elon... thus the "hobbled horse" comments.
 
Just watched the talk given by JB. I might be the only one to not get it yet, but he seemed pretty clear that the 35 GWh produced was for the 500 000 cars coming from Fremont. The remaining 15 GWh was for energy storage. However, 35 GWh/500 000 gives you 70 KWh per car which I think is pretty reasonable
 
[Added the part of a moved message that belongs to the topic of Nissan Leaf sales, discussed above, which the "Update" in this post referred to.]

Tesla sold more battery capacity than Leaf and Volt together (I know it did so at one point, and it is probably still the case), and that is what will drive the developments necessary, for electric cars to become the majority of cars sold: battery price improvements. That is what counts, and it is done by Tesla. Along with demonstrating that electric cars can be compelling ("better") in many ways.

Update: Still true, even globally, for 2013 totals, in battery capacity sold, vs the sum of Leaf and Volt/Ampera.

For the US market, where in 2013 Tesla still had most of its focus, Tesla outdid Leaf + Volt together with a factor of about 1.5x !!!
 
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Crikeys - Tesla just missed out on a 112 acre parcel adjacent to their Fremont plant???

Bloomberg is reporting tonight that home-builder Lennar has just signed a deal to purchase Union Pacific's 112-acre parcel next to the Tesla factory. The article states that Lennar's plans including building 3,000 homes and 1mm sq ft of offices and r&d sites on the land.

Purchase price is not divulged, but apparently there were other bidders.

Now, Tesla cannot purchase every vacant parcel in existence, but without knowing anything of that site's market value, it seems on the face of it a shame to have let that one slip by. Maybe 3,000 lucky employees will in the near future have the opportunity of walking to work!

Link here: Lennar Said to Reach California Land Deal for 3,000 Homes - Bloomberg