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LPP questions/discussion

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Ok. I'm not sure what's going on - I'm going to try to repost the large post I had originally posted as a reply to you. (Confusion abounds!)

Please don't repost. I have now read and approved the original. To prevent spamming and advertising we have certain filters on for new members and your long post got caught in moderation. After you've been here a little while we'll lift the filters but in the meantime you just need a little patience. Thanks for understanding and welcome to TMC.
 
I think that discussion should continue in this "TSLA Investor Discussions" part of the forum (as a new thread) as it seems to be very popular and stimulating a lot of interest. None of the people who follow this forum will see it anymore the place it was moved (took me awhile to navigate to it).

We have an established precedence of keeping non-Tesla discussion out of the Tesla discussions; all you need to do is click on the link in my post and you'll get there at the same speed regardless of where the thread is located. I'd recommend using the subscribed thread function (see under thread tools at the top of the page) if you're interested in following a specific discussion.
 
This independent panel appears to have been commissioned by the company. Therefore the degree of independence may be suspect? Please correct me if I am wrong. I would love for this technology to work and may consider investment as well. I am wondering if it is promising then why is there not already angel investors?

Why wouldn't people like Elon Musk, Larry Page, Sergei Brin or Peter Gates just give LPP those two millions that they need for the next few years? :) Looks like LPP is really efficient with the money they are spending. Apart from solving the energy needs of humankind and minimizing our impact on climate, the success of this enterprise would greatly help Tesla's case (but, ironically, would hurt SolarCity).

On a more serious note, I'm going to do some more research on LPP, but I'm considering betting $5K on it with no expectations.
 
Are you an accredited investor, Peter? Look, I'm not trying to attack you, just trying to help. I don't understand the technology and defer to you on that. I do understand the law here though and simply hope to help keep you and others out of trouble.

I'm an accredited investor. That's why I referred to it as a Lottery Ticket. It isn't an investment, it's a gamble. Still, I'm in.
 
Thanks Paul,

i have all all the material home and am planning to invest 5-10K. I have been following fusion since childhood from JET to ITER, and even strange startups like ball lightning fusion. I am very well aware of the various projects out there. I don't have millions lying around but I will have some money due to a settlement to be received. The money is quite a lot, however, if I loose it all I won't be loosing my sleep over it. The upside is huge, and might make my children and grandchildren even financially independent.

I am not at all experienced in these kind of investment and your professional input - as well as others - is very much appreciated"
 
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FYI, I have received initial materials and an e-mail from the investor contact of LPP. I have scanned the document and it does not contain information I would deem sufficient to make an investment decision. In particular, I remain curious about the answers to several questions related to corporate structure, financials and management issues that fall outside of Mr. Lerner's domain (i.e. the non-science part of taking an extremely complicated intellectual property (IP) that only a handful of people in the world even fully understand, and transferring it to a viable business model that sufficiently protects that IP and its investors from IP predators, funds development adequately, and staffs up a team of competent corporate managers (not scientists) that have experience in tech transfer). Most of the rest of my questions match those asked by Dave to the letter.

I appreciate the enthusiasm shown here by all, including our newest forum member above. But I would continue to urge the utmost caution on the part of anyone considering investing in this or any private company. Investing in early-stage private companies is itself a science of sorts and there are many great minds who can teach venture capital investment management to those with the time and inclination, but this naturally isn't going to happen in this thread alone, or on any internet discussion forum.

I will do what I can to put some more time into this to apply my experience to due diligence here, but I can't promise instant or even public feedback. I suppose I will plan to provide a summation of my findings that endeavors to protect the sensitive nature of the financial information that needs to be discussed here, most of which has no place in a public internet forum (both to protect the company and its investors).

Thanks.
 
I’ve received most of the answers I needed about LPP after emailing Bob (CFO). Here’s my current take.

1. Number of shareholders
I had expressed earlier that it was oddly suspicious that LPP is accepting investments of $5k from people after having raised a few million dollars and valuing themselves close to $30m. I had shared how later on if sophisticated VCs joined as investors and LPP was not in position of strength (ie., they really needed the money) that VCs could find ways to wipe out earlier shareholders, especially if they saw a lot of tiny non-involved investors. After reading through the private placement memorandum LPP provided, it appears that they do have various shareholder dilution provisions in place. Further, it appears that Eric Lerner has full voting control over the company. This helps as Eric can help make sure earlier shareholders (esp. the tiny ones) aren’t wiped out in later rounds.

I had mentioned that VCs could wipe out earlier shareholders and there are various ways that VCs can do this. A lot of depends on the company and if the company is in a position of weakness or not. If the company is weak (ie., is really struggling to survive) during a later round VCs could come in and take a large portion of the company. They could also issue arbitrary amounts of stock or even take control of the board. They can even shut down the company and move the IP to a newly created company. It can be quite brutal if the company is struggling to survive. I’m not saying that all this will apply to LPP since their situation can be unique with the founder perhaps refusing to relinquish control ever. However, the risks I shared earlier are just a reality of angel/VC investing. It’s not a concern necessarily specific to LPP, it’s more of a general issue people ought to be aware of when investing in early stage companies.

In the case of LPP, they appear to have quite a low number of investors (far below the 500 sec cap). So I don’t think they’re at any risk of running into legal problems with the numbers of shareholders. It’s more of a minor concern of how tiny non-involved shareholders might be viewed by sophisticated VCs at a later stage, if that happens.

2. Accredited vs Foreign investors
It appears that LPP is accepting investment from only accredited investors if they’re in the U.S. But for foreigners, they’re accepting investment from anyone. They claim that this is legal and I have no reason to doubt their claim.

Some people have mentioned that since only accredited investors can invest in LLP that they are experienced enough and have enough assets to make a speculative investment into LLP. However, since LPP is accepting foreign investment from non-accredited investors then I think it’s wise to caution these investors to do full due diligence before investing, as with any investment of this nature.

3. Tech/Science
I’m not going to comment on the science and tech behind LPP and what they are trying to accomplish. The reason being is because I don’t have expertise in the field of fusion and wouldn’t add much value here. So most of my comments aren’t related to LPP as a product/science but rather just highlighting some areas of due diligence (ie., non-product related) that investors should look into.

4. Size of company
It appears LLP is a very small company. According to their CFO, LPP has three full time employees and one full time contractor. In addition there are 3 part time employees and two part time contractors. Now this is both a pro and a con. The pro is that their headcount is small so their expenses are relatively small. The con is that they don’t have a large staff and the manpower to do a ton of work that a large team might be able to do. This is something that the person interested in investing in the company should be aware of and should be comfortable with.

I asked their CFO how much investment they raised and how much their total expenses were each of the past 3 years. I won’t share the info here since I’m not sure the company wants that info out in the public. But if you’re interested in investing, I think it’s worth asking them so you can get a better feel of their size, their budget/expenses, and the investment they’re bringing in.

5. Valuation
The company is valuing itself at $27.8m. I have mixed initial feelings about this. On one side, I think $27.8m is quite a high valuation for a company so small. This is a company with just a handful of full-time employees, yet their raising money at a valuation of close to $30m. On the other hand, since I don’t understand the tech/science behind their product/research, it could be that they have a ton of IP that really is worth that much money.

When I asked about valuation prior, a few people mentioned that the stock offering was for $100/share. But $100/share really is meaningless. It’s more important to understand at what valuation is the company raising money at (ie., valuing their company at $27.8m). So whatever money you put in, you’re getting a small piece of that pie. For example, if someone puts in $1m then they’ll get 1/27.8 of the company.

It’s also important when thinking about valuation to recognize that your investment in an early stage company will be diluted by later rounds, unless the company never has a need to raise funds ever again which is rare. There are many scenarios how dilution takes place but it largely depends on what kind of position the company is in at the time it’s raising funds (ie., is the company negotiating from a position of strength or weakness).

I know some of the people who have invested in LPP think that in just 12 months, LPP will have a breakthrough and investors will be knocking at LPP’s door begging for an opportunity to invest. This could happen. It also could not happen. And if it doesn’t happen, then dilution becomes an increasingly larger concern as the company needs to raise funds without it’s promised breakthrough.

6. Lack of Revenue
Another area of risk is the company’s lack of revenue. It appears that the company is at a research stage and isn’t able to “sell” a product to anyone. As a result, they’re relying almost completely on raising funds from investors to pay their bills. This is typical of certain types of startups (ie., biotech) where a company is spending years trying to develop a hit product (ie., new medicine) and doesn’t have any revenue until the product is developed. This type of investment tends to be more risky since sometimes it’s difficult to gauge if the startup really is on track to make it’s hit product and when that hit product will be finished, if ever. That’s why investors in these type of startups probably ought to have deep domain experience to be able to evaluate the current state of the startup and it’s technology/science.

Contrast this approach with the approach of SpaceX, where in order to fund Elon Musk’s mission for a colony on Mars he ingeniously created a company that brings in revenue (ie., satellite launches and space station trips) to fund the continual development toward a reusable rocket that will take people to Mars.

I’m not saying LPP’s approach (ie., lack of revenue) is destined to fail. Rather, I’m saying that there’s a revenue challenge. They need to find a way to bankroll all their research. And if their research takes longer than expected, or if they hit some unexpected challenges, then they’ll need to come up with ways to find funding or else their venture will eventually die. I have to say though that the company has found a way to manage to survive until now and appears to be quite scrappy.

7. Fundraising challenges
It appears that LPP has had some challenges in raising funds. In their October 2012 presentation, http://lawrencevilleplasmaphysics.com/images/Presentation Script 101212.pdf, they mention the following:
“Q: What could make us move faster?”
“A: Well, there’s too few of us…So that’s the problem... it’s too small of a team.”

“Q:If you had your funding, $2M you’re asking for, what do you believe your timeline for feasibility?”
"A: Well I hesitate a little to say timeline because everybody underestimate deadlines, but we do look to get feasibility in the next 12 months."

And then in their 2014 kick-off report, 2014 kickoff report: Looking back the year ahead
"While our progress in the laboratory was severely hindered by a shortage of funds, preventing us from advancing as rapidly as we could have otherwise, we did take significant strides forward.”

"Shortage of funds constrained our work by impeding the hiring of additional scientific staff and by imposing on us the need to seek the least expensive suppliers of the tungsten electrodes, which has delayed by months their acquisition.”

"we don’t expect to complete the demonstration of scientific feasibility in 2014, but we do expect to take large steps towards that goal.”

In other words, in Oct 2012 they said if they had adequate $2m funding that in 12 months they could demonstrate feasibility. But then in Jan 2014, after sharing their struggles with lack of funds, they say that they don’t expect to reach feasibility by the end of the year.

When investing in an early stage startup one of the areas I look at is execution. I look to see if the company is executing on what they’ve projected to do or not. And if they’re not, then why. I’m unclear how well LPP executes. Their struggles with fundraising appear to be a warning sign to me. However, on the other hand they seem to be scrappy and to be raising funds via grassroots and are holding together their handful of full-time employees. So, in some ways they are executing simply by not giving up and continuing to stay alive as a company. On the other hand, they haven’t met their fundraising goals and this has severely hampered the speed of development. So, execution (esp. with fundraising) appears to be a risk factor.

8. Overall impression
On a personal level, I have my concerns with the level of execution that LPP demonstrates with fundraising. I also get a sense from the above links I referenced that they might be overly optimistic in their timetables as well.

There are certain really difficult businesses where you need to get a lot of things right in order for the business to have a chance to succeed. For example, Tesla and SpaceX are good examples. You need to get a lot of things right in order to just have a chance. I don’t know the fusion field but it would appear that in order to succeed at fusion you really need to get a lot of things right. While most of those items are science-related with the product, fundraising is equally important. The company needs the money to survive. Sometimes surviving is enough because as you survive you come across discoveries and you might get lucky. But sometimes surviving isn’t enough and you need money not just to survive to to innovate at a fast pace. In other words, in certain fields just surviving isn’t going to cut it. You need to execute brilliantly and fast in order to have a chance. I wonder if fusion is one of those really difficult fields where surviving just won’t be good enough. I really don’t know. But if I’m investing in any field that appears really challenging, then I want to see the team be brilliant at executing in all the important areas.

Due to my concerns regarding LPP’s challenges with lack of funds and what I view as potentially weak execution in fundraising/business, I’m not very interested in investing in the company. But of course, they might be on to something truly amazing with their approach to fusion and I hope that they really do succeed. For people interested in investing, my suggestion is to do your due diligence and ask questions. And if you’re able to really understand the fusion field, then you’re at a greater advantage because you can evaluate the various approaches out there as well.

I do have concern when people don’t do much due diligence and they don’t understand the fusion field, yet they throw money into a company like this out of fear of missing out and because others are investing into it. But for those who’ve done their due diligence and who understand the fusion field, then more power to you and best of luck. I really do wish the best for LPP and all companies trying to make a difference in this world.
 
Why wouldn't people like Elon Musk, Larry Page, Sergei Brin or Peter Gates just give LPP those two millions that they need for the next few years? :) Looks like LPP is really efficient with the money they are spending. Apart from solving the energy needs of humankind and minimizing our impact on climate, the success of this enterprise would greatly help Tesla's case (but, ironically, would hurt SolarCity).

On a more serious note, I'm going to do some more research on LPP, but I'm considering betting $5K on it with no expectations.

My thoughts exactly!
 
Why wouldn't people like Elon Musk, Larry Page, Sergei Brin or Peter Gates just give LPP those two millions that they need for the next few years? :)

Anyone who uses Twitter, please feel free to tweet a link to my article to Elon. If enough people do it, he might click and read. He does seem to read some of his incoming tweets, somehow, while we mortals sleep.
Elon Musk (elonmusk) on Twitter
 
...Here’s my current take...

Dave,

That is a really good, well-reasoned overview.

The only points I feel could use clarification are the points about funding, execution and LPP’s scrappy make-up. It is certainly uncommon and they are indeed scrappy. I fully agree that raises red flags for many VCs. LPP’s first (current) task is scientific feasibility (Phase I), which is relatively inexpensive (another $1-2M) compared to engineering (Phase II perhaps $50M.) Once demonstrated, LPP needs to put together a good Phase II team and behave much more formally. They’ll have to make a manufacturable device and they’ll have a much more typical burn rate set up. They’re scrappy now because they think it’s the safest way to prove Phase I. The idea is to demonstrate the science first (publish papers; file patents), then get formal about operations moving forward where your well stated points become critical to industrial implementation.

There’s nothing ‘normal’ about achieving net fusion. It may be apples-and-oranges to compare LPP’s admittedly unique operations to that of typical VC-based (money grubbing) startups.

That said, thanks for helping everyone make sense of a difficult subject. :)

-Paul
 
Dave,

That is a really good, well-reasoned overview.

The only points I feel could use clarification are the points about funding, execution and LPP’s scrappy make-up. It is certainly uncommon and they are indeed scrappy. I fully agree that raises red flags for many VCs. LPP’s first (current) task is scientific feasibility (Phase I), which is relatively inexpensive (another $1-2M) compared to engineering (Phase II perhaps $50M.) Once demonstrated, LPP needs to put together a good Phase II team and behave much more formally. They’ll have to make a manufacturable device and they’ll have a much more typical burn rate set up. They’re scrappy now because they think it’s the safest way to prove Phase I. The idea is to demonstrate the science first (publish papers; file patents), then get formal about operations moving forward where your well stated points become critical to industrial implementation.

There’s nothing ‘normal’ about achieving net fusion. It may be apples-and-oranges to compare LPP’s admittedly unique operations to that of typical VC-based (money grubbing) startups.

That said, thanks for helping everyone make sense of a difficult subject. :)

-Paul

Thanks for your contribution to this discussion, Paul. I would however caution you about using words like "money-grubbing" when soliciting fellow investors. Money is not inherently bad, and is in fact required to achieve all the non-monetary goals you and others have laid out for LPP. Venture capital and venture capitalists who make a living doing it certainly run the gamut from evil to crusading charity, but any venture investor worth their salt will tell you that they do not typically invest as "dumb money," and want to in fact partner with their investment companies to bring them strategic, management and networking value as well as capital. It takes money to bring dreams to reality, and venture investing is itself a science of sorts with its own "stars" like Mr. Lerner. Denigrating professional investors is a surefire way to ensure that your company will not find serious and valuable investment anytime soon.

I am concerned about team structure. It would be wise to supplement Mr. Lerner's extensive scientific expertise with some truly expert investment, legal and technology transfer management expertise as well. IP protection is also mandatory in this era of IP predators, and I need to see evidence of that or at least a plan to beef up IP protections.

Just to update others -- I am in communication with LPP and am awaiting responses to several questions.

Dave's summary was spot on, and I share most of his concerns. I have asked for more information about financials, management talent and experience, which Dave touched on but I want to understand further.

Thanks.
 
Thanks for your contribution to this discussion, Paul. I would however caution you about using words like "money-grubbing" when soliciting fellow investors. Money is not inherently bad...

FluxCap,

Fair enough - point taken. My intention was not to offend, but to note there is a difference between people whose goal is money first and foremost (money-grubbing) and people for whom money is a tool to accomplish larger goals. If you read my comment again, you'll see that it was actually directed at startups themselves - not their VC investors.

I'm also not trying to solicit investors. What I care about is whether or not advocacy or criticism of LPP is justified. I am merely trying to pull the conversation away from extremes and toward the middle-ground where balanced reasoning and correct information lives. In the case of LPP, I strongly believe that being aware of the underhanded tactics of "money-grubbing" VCs is prudent. Allowing a VC to gain too much control would lead to exactly what DaveT warns of with dilution and other awful practices. It could enable an unexpected takeover just to keep this kind of innovation off the market or reduced in application. I think we're probably on the same page about this and are perhaps mincing words.

I just thought of another (perhaps clearer) way to articulate LPP's current make-up vs. more typical startups. LPP is in Phase I (raw science), which has much lower need for most of the organizational overhead of Phase II (engineering.) I believe that's why those structures aren't foremost at LPP right now - they're just not critical yet. But I also know LPP has been soliciting Phase II management potentials. As their planning evolves, I believe LPP will be rigorous about the right people in the right places. You are right to watch for it. If they screw that up, that'll be a clear red-flag indeed. However, if they reach Phase II, the investment potential will partially deflate with the risk. Time will tell.

That's it for me for a while. My (far more boring) responsibilities are managing to make me feel bad enough that I'm going to get back to it.

Cheers!

-Paul
 
You want to pull the conversation to a reasonable level but in the very next sentence double down on insulting any of us who are/were involved in VC. Not cool.

Nigel,

I think you got the wrong impression, but I think I know why. I wasn't trying to imply all VC is money-grubbing. Quite the opposite -- I was using "money-grubbing" as a modifier to ONLY include those VC who are more interested in money than the larger goals. I think most VC factions are respectable. Those aren't the ones I worry about, though.

So assuming you're not just in it for the money, you and every other decent human being out there were excluded. I assume you're a decent and responsible investor just as I would with anyone until proven otherwise.

I apologize for not wording what I said more clearly. I hope it doesn't detract from the main points I was trying to make.

-Paul