Lucid Air vs Tesla Model S

[dmh444]

SUPER helpful. I really like my Tesla, but I also like the Pure that's on order (from my test drive and what I've read). One thing I do like with the Telsa is all the functionalities with the app. My wife's Audi app is just straight up pathetic and pretty much non-existent.

If Lucid has even 75% of the functionalities as Telsa, I'd be content. Just want to level set expectations if I decide to make this purchase.

Thanks Tam. Yah if you don't mind, I might ping you with more questions.

 

[Yelobird]

SUPER helpful. I really like my Tesla, but I also like the Pure that's on order (from my test drive and what I've read). One thing I do like with the Telsa is all the functionalities with the app. My wife's Audi app is just straight up pathetic and pretty much non-existent.

If Lucid has even 75% of the functionalities as Telsa, I'd be content. Just want to level set expectations if I decide to make this purchase.

Thanks Tam. Yah if you don't mind, I might ping you with more questions.

No doubt it’s a nice car and the features are well done, the question will remain how long the company can survive at its current pace and management direction. Wouldn’t want to own one if the company vaporizes or moves over seas.

 

[dmh444]

No doubt it’s a nice car and the features are well done, the question will remain how long the company can survive at its current pace and management direction. Wouldn’t want to own one if the company vaporizes or moves over seas.

Yah that's truly my BIGGEST concern. I'm also on the Lucid forum, and as you can imagine, most there think it's the greatest car, bashes on Tesla, and have no doubt the company will be around in the long haul. Either they know something I don't or I want to be having whatever they're smoking.

 

[Tam]

No doubt it’s a nice car and the features are well done, the question will remain how long the company can survive at its current pace and management direction. Wouldn’t want to own one if the company vaporizes or moves over seas.

It will die if it runs out of cash. As long as it can get cash it will survive.

Amazon was losing money for quite many years, but it never ran out of cash because investors were willing to pour in money instead of letting it die.

Tesla was the same. It was running out of cash in just weeks or days but every time, someone was able to inject more cash to keep Tesla alive.

Lucid has a few things going to keep it from dying:

1) Saudi Arabia has been providing cash as needed. It now owns 60% of Lucid. Lucid is building a factory there and expects to start delivering cars this year.

2) It has done around 10 rounds to raise funds and just raised another $3 billion in stock sales this month. That means people are willing to keep Lucid alive by pouring money into the company.

3) Aston Martin just made a deal with Lucid

Aston Martin turns to US EV company Lucid for high-tech help

Aston Martin has reached a deal that will give U.S. electric vehicle (EV) maker Lucid Group a 3.7% stake in return for access to its "high performance" technology, the British company said on Monday, sending its shares up nearly 15%.

www.reuters.com

 

[dmh444]

Yup, saw that article on the AM partnership earlier this morning. That's good news for Lucid.
I'm actually less concerned if they're run out of money or not.
The fact that PIF owns them 60% (probably 100% one day), coupled with Rawlinson/Lucid not wanting to partner with Tesla on NACS, not sure how much love and attention US customers will get with owning one of their cars.
If I lived in Europe or Middle East, then maybe I guess.....

 

[Tam]

Yup, saw that article on the AM partnership earlier this morning. That's good news for Lucid.
I'm actually less concerned if they're run out of money or not.
The fact that PIF owns them 60% (probably 100% one day), coupled with Rawlinson/Lucid not wanting to partner with Tesla on NACS, not sure how much love and attention US customers will get with owning one of their cars.
If I lived in Europe or Middle East, then maybe I guess.....

Money mixed in politics is a very controversial subject.

I've seen more news showing how much hatred toward China than any other country.

Parliament says China is committing a genocide. Why were officials planning to meet one of the perpetrators? | James McMurray

Erkin Tuniyaz’s visit is no longer going ahead, but Britain should never have engaged with this whitewashing of the treatment of Uyghurs and other minorities, says James McMurray of the University of Sussex

www.theguardian.com

However, we are still using Chinese products, including Tesla.

Saudi Arabia does get to the news but not as often. Recent news was: It fooled Biden with the fist bumps and then didn't comply with the President's request to increase oil production.

I rationalize that at least, it doesn't use its oil money to kill EVs off.

 

[Yelobird]

It will die if it runs out of cash. As long as it can get cash it will survive.

Amazon was losing money for quite many years, but it never ran out of cash because investors were willing to pour in money instead of letting it die.

Tesla was the same. It was running out of cash in just weeks or days but every time, someone was able to inject more cash to keep Tesla alive.

Lucid has a few things going to keep it from dying:

1) Saudi Arabia has been providing cash as needed. It now owns 60% of Lucid. Lucid is building a factory there and expects to start delivering cars this year.

2) It has done around 10 rounds to raise funds and just raised another $3 billion in stock sales this month. That means people are willing to keep Lucid alive by pouring money into the company.

3) Aston Martin just made a deal with Lucid

Aston Martin turns to US EV company Lucid for high-tech help

Aston Martin has reached a deal that will give U.S. electric vehicle (EV) maker Lucid Group a 3.7% stake in return for access to its "high performance" technology, the British company said on Monday, sending its shares up nearly 15%.

www.reuters.com

Don’t disagree however averaging -281% margins few would see this as a worthy investment. Tesla actually made money pretty soon out of the gate. With Lucid soon to be delisted and valued at 5$ per share hunting big cash might be tough this late in the game especially with the 60% Saudi ownership.

 

[dmh444]

I gotta admit, have these conversations in this forum with you folks is much more reasonable than in the Lucid forums. There still seems to be too many die-hard Lucid owners that just want to continue bashing Tesla. The way I see it, when you bash on someone, that's mean you're probably envious of them.
Frankly speaking, I want Lucid to succeed, hence why I have my order with them. More competition is never a bad thing.

 

[Tam]

Someone was asking for my input:

1) My priority has been range. I chose the S because of the 265 range. I replaced it with the X because of the higher range at 295.

2) No regrets with Lucid since December. Much more luxurious, quiet, comfortable, spacious, and much more predictable, unlike the Tesla brand.

3) Tesla financial outlook was worse in the beginning. It had very little chance of survival and it kept asking friends and families for fundings. Once it goes public, it can tap into the almost unlimited cash in the stock market.

Same with Lucid. At least it has been able to access the public stock market money while Tesla wasn't in the beginning. Lucid is much better shape than Tesla when it couldn't go to the public market (no one knew what Tesla is at that time).

Just like Cadillac is a high-end product for a rich population like VIP, stars, FBI, Secret Service, US President convoy... that is a totally different population than Tesla's.

That's the same way with Lucid. It's a high-end product for those who have money. It's direct competition with Mercedes and not Tesla, not Cadillac.

Don't get discouraged when you see low sales. The lucid market works differently than Tesla.

4) Of course, there are pros and cons in any product. I bought Lucid because of the range: 516 miles. Everything else is secondary.

Cons:

Someone already mentioned: No Dash Cam, No Sentry Mode

TPMS must be programmed by Lucid (A hassle for each 6000-mile tire rotation. Too monopoly. Tesla is auto-programmed).

Complicated Profiles with limited numbers only: Easy to create numerous profiles.

No Auto side mirrors down when reverse: Try to create a side mirror down profile but too complicated. I gave up.

Charging Amperes not adjustable. Convenient in Tesla to dial down Amperes at will

Lack of shaking bass: It works with the trunk closed and the rear seats up to create a boombox enclosure. Rear seats down would destroy the boombox effect.

Difficult to operate Adaptive Cruise Control: it uses spring loaded half turned roller instead of true 360 rollers.

FOB has no separate buttons: need to LEARN sequence of long short presses for one single button just like Morse Code in the old days.

Low road clearance: Guaranteed way to scrape steep driveways, road drain depression, speed bumps...

12V in right rear trunk, not front!

Battery-operated instead of hard-wired Sun Visor Lights. That's 6 button battery to change!

No OBDII: I use this for dashcam in the S and X

Reboot/Reset: Complicated procedure discourages owners to do so. They want us to lock the door and let it sleep instead (can't sleep while driving).

Dream Drive Pro (FSD) is too simple for now: Just Autopilot on Highways and Adaptive Cruise in city.

Resistive heater: Cost more energy/range than Tesla Heat Pump

No coat hook: There are rear ceiling grab handles for that purpose instead.

No Web Browser

The backup Camera Display is too small

Service Centers: Too few. More than 200 miles from my Visalia, CA home.

----
There might be more cons, but I still love my 516 miles and other bonuses that overcome all those cons.

 

[hooty]

Their engineering is superb.

That’s because Peter Rawlinson is an actual, objectively verifiable engineer

 

[Yelobird]

That’s because Peter Rawlinson is an actual, objectively verifiable engineer

If profit and growth mean nothing he’s a great engineer.

 

[dmh444]

It's all subjective, but IMO he's a better leader than Elon. I think Elon is brilliant and a visionary, but his ego is too much to handle.

 

[hooty]

If profit and growth mean nothing he’s a great engineer.

Than he’s got a fair way to catch Musk’s 15 year profitless run with Tesla

 

[DBV1]

Yah that's truly my BIGGEST concern. I'm also on the Lucid forum, and as you can imagine, most there think it's the greatest car, bashes on Tesla, and have no doubt the company will be around in the long haul. Either they know something I don't or I want to be having whatever they're smoking.

I think some of the Lucid forum posters, including some of the moderators just love to bash Tesla, always comparing to a civic or other types of cars. I also think that is so unacceptable/unprofessional, especially the moderators. I noticed that the Lucid forum does not have as much activity anymore, so to me that says that Lucid is not getting many new owners once the initial batch was sold.

Some of the comments I read from staunch Lucid owners or moderators make me not even want to buy a Lucid, even though I really like Airs. I still think the Lucid Touring and refresh Model S LR are both great cars, both offering their own positives and negatives and would be happy to own either. I would take a Model S over a Pure any day of the week though, as it offers much more. Lucid Touring really needs to have a lower price point and they should just eliminate the Pure.

Bottom line though, if you travel a lot Tesla is still the only way to go with their supercharging network.

 

[DBV1]

Lucid decreased prices and are close to what the legacy pricing was. Also - have more aggressive leases. Doubt this will do much to move their cars though, as such a limited market for high end EV’s and the charging network is still a weak spot if you travel. Still tempted to move on a Touring or Grand Touring now, but charging network holds me back and the fact that I love my refresh Model S.

 

[dmh444]

Yup, saw the new price drops as well as adding in the SS and DD Pro for free pretty much. I still have my reservation with them; might wait for further price drops as I agree with you, I don't think these will move the needle too much.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

...] Lucid has a few things going to keep it from dying:

1) Saudi Arabia has been providing cash as needed. It now owns 60% of Lucid. Lucid is building a factory there and expects to start delivering cars this year. [...

So what that does that mean?...

As I understand it, that means that Lucid is unfortunately majority owned by the Military Dictator of Saudi Arabia – this guy:

Mohammed Bin Salman

Mohammed bin Salman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Saudi Arabia: Freedom in the World 2023 Country Report | Freedom House

See the Freedom in the World 2023 score and learn about democracy and freedom in Saudi Arabia.

freedomhouse.org

And who was directly responsible for the murder of Jamal Khashoggi less than 5 years ago?...

Assassination of Jamal Khashoggi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There'a also this from yesterday:

Saudi Arabia: Mass Killings of Migrants at Yemen Border

Saudi border guards have killed at least hundreds of Ethiopian migrants and asylum seekers who tried to cross the Yemen-Saudi border between March 2022 and June 2023, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. If committed as part of a Saudi government policy to murder migrants, these...

www.hrw.org

Given what I've written above there's just no way I could buy a car from Mohammed Bin Salman. And that is too bad since the Lucid Air seems to be a nice vehicle. It's also one of a relatively few EV offerings that isn't an SUV/Crossover...

 

[Tam]

So what that does that mean?...

As I understand it, that means that Lucid is unfortunately majority owned by the Military Dictator of Saudi Arabia – this guy:

Mohammed Bin Salman

Mohammed bin Salman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Saudi Arabia: Freedom in the World 2023 Country Report | Freedom House

See the Freedom in the World 2023 score and learn about democracy and freedom in Saudi Arabia.

freedomhouse.org

And who was directly responsible for the murder of Jamal Khashoggi less than 5 years ago?...

Assassination of Jamal Khashoggi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There'a also this from yesterday:

Saudi Arabia: Mass Killings of Migrants at Yemen Border

Saudi border guards have killed at least hundreds of Ethiopian migrants and asylum seekers who tried to cross the Yemen-Saudi border between March 2022 and June 2023, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. If committed as part of a Saudi government policy to murder migrants, these...

www.hrw.org

Given what I've written above there's just no way I could buy a car from Mohammed Bin Salman. And that is too bad since the Lucid Air seems to be a nice vehicle. It's also one of a relatively few EV offerings that isn't an SUV/Crossover...

Shooting migrants is not a new idea. It came from the US President:

"Trump Wanted to “Shoot Down” Migrants, Give Border Wall an Alligator-Filled Moat"

Trump Wanted to “Shoot Down” Migrants, Give Border Wall an Alligator-Filled Moat

According to a new report, the president’s desire to shut down the U.S.-Mexico border went further—and prompted more turmoil—than previously known.

www.vanityfair.com

 

[Tam]

...Lucid is unfortunately majority owned by the Military Dictator of Saudi Arabia – this guy:

Mohammed Bin Salman...

The dictator Saudi Arabia has been a strategic partner of the US even during Trump, and now Biden and all US Presidents in the past.

According to Gallup, China is the greatest enemy of the US:

Despite being accused of supporting genocide in China:

Tesla Accused of 'Economic Support for Genocide' Over Xinjiang Showroom

The Council of American-Islamic Relations released a statement urging the company and chairman Elon Musk to intervene.

www.newsweek.com

Despite being the greatest enemy of the US, Tesla China has produced more than half in 2022,

People have no problem with their conscience in buying a Tesla.

Ethics is very difficult, but in some specialties, such as Doctors without Borders, the Olympics... politics needs to be set aside.

"International Olympic Committee (IOC) president Thomas Bach says criticism by some governments over the return of Russian and Belarusian athletes to international sport is "deplorable"."

‘Deplorable’: Olympics boss slams effort to ban Russia from Paris 2024

Governments calling the shots ‘would be the end of world sport as we know it today,’ IOC chief says.

www.politico.eu

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

...] Ethics is very difficult, but in some specialties, such as Doctors without Borders, the Olympics... politics needs to be set aside. [...

I do of course completely disagree.

Ethics is very, very simple. What is right? What is wrong? What is good? What is evil?

Politics should of course not be set aside when it comes to the Olympics.

And Doctors without Borders are not buying cars that cost ~$87,000 – $250,000+ from Military Dictators like Mohammed bin Salman (or whatever a Lucid Air costs these days...).

I have expressed my view on this.

You have expressed your view on this.

Others reading this thread can draw their own conclusions and act accordingly.

...] Despite being accused of supporting genocide in China:

Tesla Accused of 'Economic Support for Genocide' Over Xinjiang Showroom

The Council of American-Islamic Relations released a statement urging the company and chairman Elon Musk to intervene.

www.newsweek.com

Despite being the greatest enemy of the US, Tesla China has produced more than half in 2022,

People have no problem with their conscience in buying a Tesla. [...

All car companies (basically) have production in China.

And Tesla is not majority owned by a Military Dictator like Mohammed bin Salman.