MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

[Phyzi Driver]

Pleasantly surprised to be getting 6 mi/hr from a standard 120v outlet for my SR+. Thought it would be closer to 3-4 like what I have seen on YouTube but hey I'll take the extra 2 mi/hr.

 

[yon1000]

I've just recieved VIN number showing my upcoming August M3LR AWD is from China.
How It's compared in terms of charging and range to the US M3LR AWD because in the last shipment of US LR AWD people said they have 75kWh battery.
I'm worried because I've heard the US one is much closer to the WLTP Range of 580KM

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Pleasantly surprised to be getting 6 mi/hr from a standard 120v outlet for my SR+. Thought it would be closer to 3-4 like what I have seen on YouTube but hey I'll take the extra 2 mi/hr.View attachment 687828

This can be calculated (though you do have to estimate the overhead & charging losses; charging losses after overhead removal are at least 10% based on EPA data):

121V*12A = 1450W

Range is 263 miles with a 53.5kWh capacity and a 4.5% buffer: 53.5kWh*0.955/263 = 194Wh/rmi (displayed)

(1450W-150W)*0.9 / 194Wh/rmi = 6mi/hr

You have about 1200W (useful) going to the battery. Each displayed rated mile is ~194Wh for your vehicle.

Prior things you may have seen on YouTube could have been for Performance vehicles or other vehicles which have had as high as 248Wh/rmi (Model 3 Performance 2020, for example - would only charge at 4.8mph).

And if you have to warm the battery or have other features active which are consuming energy, the rate could easily be even lower. You just have to have something consuming ~200W to take one 1mph off the charge rate.

 

[ozke1000]

Hi

Can anyone help me, what I am calculating wrong?

I have Model 3 LR 2021 E3D. When I calculate (from the energy view) for example 141 wh/km x 448 : 0,89 (%) I get that 71 kw/h which is pretty correct if the battery is restricted to the same capacity than E5D.

But what I am calculating wrong if I watch the trip info: I have used 30 kwh and at the same time the percentage of the battery has lowed down 45% which means that 1% is 0,667 kwh? That is too little...

Thanks

 

[eivissa]

Quick Update:
In Europe we now expect all Model 3 and Y to come from China until GF4 Berlin is up and running.
Therefore my theory is, that the Panasonic 82kWh will end for Europe within Q3/2021. LG Chem is probably switching all of its production lines to the new 5,0Ah cells and in Q4/2021 we see Long Range and Performance as E5LD LG 82kWh cars from China.

This might actually be a good thing as cold weather performance of the large NMC cells will probably be spot on, so the only thing LG has to fix is the charge power / charge curve.

My option on a new Q4/2021 Performance is around Christmas and for now I am looking forward to the oncoming changes

 

[grzywek]

I managed to order one available M3 LR few days ago with 2k Euro discount. Right now have two orders on my account: one normal with November delivery estimation and the discounted with delivery in August.

Should I be anyhow worried about the LG pack? Not sure if I should force myself to wait additional 3 months for the Panasonic version or just take what is with worse battery

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I get that 71 kw/h

that 1% is 0,667 kwh?

1% should be 71kWh*0.955*0.99*0.01 = 0.671kWh.

So seems pretty close.

0.955 => buffer removal
0.99 => trip meter loss of ~1%

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Should I be anyhow worried about the LG pack? Not sure if I should force myself to wait additional 3 months for the Panasonic version or just take what is with worse battery

I’d wait and hope they start shipping an unlocked 82kWh pack in AWDs to Europe in 2022.

However, it does seem very unlikely, with all the other battery variants they are shipping to Europe. But I would wait.

I guess the infrastructure in Europe is getting to be good enough that an extra 5%+ energy doesn’t really matter that much?

 

[Phyzi Driver]

Finally popped my supercharging cherry yesterday. The highest kw I got was 74 kw during the charge from 10% to 60%. Supercharger max is 150 kw. Anyone get similar numbers? I have the SR+.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Finally popped my supercharging cherry yesterday. The highest kw I got was 74 kw during the charge from 10% to 60%. Supercharger max is 150 kw. Anyone get similar numbers? I have the SR+.

You should be able to max out at 150kW on that Supercharger. Drive on the freeway for an hour, navigate with the Nav to the Supercharger to allow warming (ideally it does not do any pre-conditioning when you navigate to it - means battery is warm enough), make sure you are not sharing with anyone else (don’t want to share rate!), and try multiple different stations.

Max for your vehicle is about 170kW, which should be attainable at 10%-30% or so at a 250kW charger.

 

[Phyzi Driver]

You should be able to max out at 150kW on that Supercharger. Drive on the freeway for an hour, navigate with the Nav to the Supercharger to allow warming (ideally it does not do any pre-conditioning when you navigate to it - means battery is warm enough), make sure you are not sharing with anyone else (don’t want to share rate!), and try multiple different stations.

Max for your vehicle is about 170kW, which should be attainable at 10%-30% or so at a 250kW charger.

I navigated from work to the supercharger (about 30 miles away) so it should have been warm enough to get 150 kw right? I was 1 of 3 Teslas there and my car was at least 2 car spots away from the nearest one. Maybe it was just that location... I'll try again at a different location next time.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I navigated from work to the supercharger (about 30 miles away) so it should have been warm enough to get 150 kw right?

Probably not. Did it precondition? If it was still preconditioning when you arrived, then, by definition, it was not warm enough.

When you navigate to a Supercharger and there is no preconditioning, and you are navigating to the right destination (the actual Supercharger), then you are usually in good shape to get max rate.

There are other factors not mentioned but this is the low-hanging fruit. The limit you saw is also consistent with a (typical and common) broken V2 Supercharger. Comes in ~37kW chunks. It’s very normal to have to jump around stalls to get a good rate. Have to get really good at parking extremely quickly to minimize impact.

 

[eivissa]

Should I be anyhow worried about the LG pack? Not sure if I should force myself to wait additional 3 months for the Panasonic version or just take what is with worse battery

Personally I wouldnt take the old LG pack. On longer journeys, the lower capacity and slow DC charge speed are just annoying. The cold weather performance doesnt make up for it, in my opinion. If you wait, you most likely get a LR with the new LG 82kWh battery pack. This could be the best of all worlds, but we dont know for sure. It is pretty much set, that all EU cars will come from China now and it is most likely that LG will become the main provider for LR/P battery packs.

I’d wait and hope they start shipping an unlocked 82kWh pack in AWDs to Europe in 2022.

However, it does seem very unlikely, with all the other battery variants they are shipping to Europe.

What is the point of mentioning "unlocked" 82kWh, knowing that there has never been and most likely won't ever be a locked version?
Are you still in doubt, after all the data provided here?

In the whole battery pack mess in Europe, there has been one single battery that was SW locked and that one existed only for around 5 months.
See the "red 75 in blue box" below:

I guess the infrastructure in Europe is getting to be good enough that an extra 5%+ energy doesn’t really matter that much?

It is pretty good now. Not only the SuC network, but also other providers. Almost every highway stop has a DC fast charger these days. Some are still older 50KW though...

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

What is the point of mentioning "unlocked" 82kWh, knowing that there has never been and most likely won't ever be a locked version?
Are you still in doubt, after all the data provided here?

My error. My memory on this stuff (the locks) is not that great and with the various new packs constantly shipping to Europe I had forgotten that the AWD non-P vehicles with the 82kWh pack now appear to [The following is wrong…. be set to a 79kWh degradation threshold - even in Europe. (I think owners in the US are seeing 359 or 360 miles now when fully charged…as I recall. ). ] [ EDIT: I cannot keep track. Haha. For Model Y it is 79kWh but from your table for Model 3 non-P with the 82kWh pack (Q2 only so far) the degradation threshold is still 77.8kWh in the US and Europe and people still max out at 354 miles even with 79+kWh available. Reviewing posts I don’t see any evidence of people seeing more than 354 displayed in Model 3. Which would mean 77.8kWh degradation threshold. Please correct if I am wrong.]

I thought for some reason that in Europe they were somewhat limited like the other AWDs (I knew the P’s were not). My error.

Thanks for the correction and I apologize for the error. It is worth noting for buyers that the degradation thresholds are set differently for Performance and AWD vehicles (Model 3 P/AWD: 80.6/77.8. Model Y P/AWD: 80.6/79). Does not affect available capacity though, most likely, unless there is binning, and we have no clear evidence of that.

Getting back to the point of the question, though…it seems like there is some potential uncertainty from your table for buyers in Europe at the end of the year as to what exactly that battery will be capable of. Since it is projected to be 82kWh MIC. While right now they would be getting a 75kWh MIC pack, unless they get “lucky” and pick up a Q2 vehicle somehow?

So it would make sense to wait if the buyer wants the biggest pack, for a long range bought in Europe?

 

[ozke1000]

1% should be 71kWh*0.955*0.99*0.01 = 0.671kWh.

So seems pretty close.

0.955 => buffer removal
0.99 => trip meter loss of ~1%

Buffer removal? I thought the buffer is 4,5% ( 3,4 kwh) from 74,5kwh? E3D and E5D have both 71 kwh usable capacity?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Buffer removal? I thought the buffer is 4,5% ( 3,4 kwh) from 74,5kwh? E3D and E5D have both 71 kwh usable capacity?

You used the energy screen method which shows your pack capacity since you are definitely below the degradation threshold (in general it gives the min(pack capacity, degradation threshold) ). The energy screen method for full capacity gives the result including the buffer.

You current battery is 71kWh. It started at ~74.5kWh (75kWh? Can’t remember exact number but let’s say approximately within 1kWh) if you had used the energy screen method when new.

So you still remove the 4.5% buffer from that energy screen value.

Your battery has lost about 4kWh capacity. So it has about 67.5kWh usable not including the buffer.

 

[ozke1000]

You used the energy screen method which shows your pack capacity since you are definitely below the degradation threshold (in general it gives the min(pack capacity, degradation threshold) ). The energy screen method for full capacity gives the result including the buffer.

You current battery is 71kWh. It started at ~74.5kWh (75kWh? Can’t remember exact number but let’s say approximately within 1kWh) if you had used the energy screen method when new.

So you still remove the 4.5% buffer from that energy screen value.

Your battery has lost about 4kWh capacity. So it has about 67.5kWh usable not including the buffer.

Hi
Thanks, that could explain the difference. Only problem (maybe big one...) is that the car is 6 months old. I have driven about 5000 miles and I have supercharged it 3 times (mostly charging by night at home). So 4 kWh decline is pretty much. Average should be something like 2,3% per year. That is 5,3% in 6 months

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

only problem (maybe big one...) is that the car is 6 months old. I have driven about 5000 miles and I have supercharged it 3 times (mostly charging by night at home). So 4 kWh decline is pretty much. Average should be something like 2,3% per year. That is 5,3% in 6 months

Not, it's not a problem. 10% in the first year or two is perfectly normal for that battery type (E3D). 5% in six months with 5k miles is also not uncommon. Average over 4-5 years probably is more like 3% per year.

It's perfectly normal for people to have 10-15% capacity loss after about 3 years. Most closer to 10-13%, but plenty with 15%.

It'll be interesting to see how people fare with the new 2170L cells! We should know a lot more in about 6 months (or less) about how they are doing, if people report their results here. Plenty of these vehicles that are coming up on 6 months old so we'll see how they do...


As @eivissa adds below, also important to realize this is a BMS estimate. My best guess is that estimate is nearly always within 2kWh of the actual value. So it seems very likely to me that you have capacity loss (you can report your 100% charge value, but that's equivalent to the energy screen calc you did above - it's going to show ~518km at 100% since it showed ~461km at 89%, assuming the BMS estimate has not changed since your calculation). However, a true 4kWh capacity loss is a lot more uncertain. You can charge to 60% for a while, do some full discharges, let it sleep at 20% as suggested, and it's entirely possible you'll see 1-2kWh of recovery. No guarantees but there's a decent likelihood you'll see some recovery over the course of a week or two.

A 2kWh loss over 5k miles and 6 months would definitely be perfectly normal. Not everyone sees that much, and some people see more, but it's certainly something that is entirely possible and normal.

 

[eivissa]

Hi
Thanks, that could explain the difference. Only problem (maybe big one...) is that the car is 6 months old. I have driven about 5000 miles and I have supercharged it 3 times (mostly charging by night at home). So 4 kWh decline is pretty much. Average should be something like 2,3% per year. That is 5,3% in 6 months

Surely your car doesn't have that level of degradation!

My suggestion would be to charge the car to 100% once and write down the rated km (shown instead of battery percentage). Those km times 137 divided by 1000 is your current guessed capacity by the car. In your case the car should show 518km at 100% SoC which I highly doubt.

Software locked E3D (or E3CD as they are called now), usually show around 535-545km at 100%.

Whatever the number is, you should then daily charge the car to 60% only and also allow the car to sleep for a couple of hours at lower SoC like 20%. After a couple of weeks your numbers should climb again, if they were low anyway.

We have quite a few LR / P E3D Pre-Refresh that only lost 10-15km in two years, mainly using this strategy with limiting daily SoC to 60%.

 

[ozke1000]

Not, it's not a problem. 10% in the first year or two is perfectly normal for that battery type (E3D). 5% in six months with 5k miles is also not uncommon. Average over 4-5 years probably is more like 3% per year.

It's perfectly normal for people to have 10-15% capacity loss after about 3 years. Most closer to 10-13%, but plenty with 15%.

It'll be interesting to see how people fare with the new 2170L cells! We should know a lot more in about 6 months (or less) about how they are doing, if people report their results here. Plenty of these vehicles that are coming up on 6 months old so we'll see how they do...


As @eivissa adds below, also important to realize this is a BMS estimate. My best guess is that estimate is nearly always within 2kWh of the actual value. So it seems very likely to me that you have capacity loss (you can report your 100% charge value, but that's equivalent to the energy screen calc you did above - it's going to show ~518km at 100% since it showed ~461km at 89%, assuming the BMS estimate has not changed since your calculation). However, a true 4kWh capacity loss is a lot more uncertain. You can charge to 60% for a while, do some full discharges, let it sleep at 20% as suggested, and it's entirely possible you'll see 1-2kWh of recovery. No guarantees but there's a decent likelihood you'll see some recovery over the course of a week or two.

A 2kWh loss over 5k miles and 6 months would definitely be perfectly normal. Not everyone sees that much, and some people see more, but it's certainly something that is entirely possible and normal.

Surely your car doesn't have that level of degradation!

My suggestion would be to charge the car to 100% once and write down the rated km (shown instead of battery percentage). Those km times 137 divided by 1000 is your current guessed capacity by the car. In your case the car should show 518km at 100% SoC which I highly doubt.

Software locked E3D (or E3CD as they are called now), usually show around 535-545km at 100%.

Whatever the number is, you should then daily charge the car to 60% only and also allow the car to sleep for a couple of hours at lower SoC like 20%. After a couple of weeks your numbers should climb again, if they were low anyway.

We have quite a few LR / P E3D Pre-Refresh that only lost 10-15km in two years, mainly using this strategy with limiting daily SoC to 60%.

Ok. Thanks.
I have kept SoC always about 77% - 88%. So I'll try that refresh, but first I am going to look that 100% range tomorrow.