MASTER THREAD: Comprehensive Road-Course Modification Guide — Optimizing the 3 for the track

[juliusb]

I'm keeping -1.5F, -2.0R. Optimal would be OEM specs. That one is a compromise for spirited driving.

I also don't use quick swap feature, since I'm lazy to do it, it gets stuck easy and you have to fix toe there and back. I just go like that street and track. It damages shoulder somewhat, but rubber would lose flexibility faster anyway

So you daily drive and track your M3 with the same and only mild -1.5°F/-2.0°R? What happend to "one needs at least 2.5° front camber for evenly distributed tire wear and temperature?"

For sure you are a very sophisticated and experienced M3-track-master - so how did you find this mild front camber settings and for which tire size and brand?

I dont believe that -3.5 is optimal for the track. At the time I checked that my optimal front was -2.5 based on tire temps at the pit lane.

Ok I see your point and welcome the possibilty for lower camber requirements. But why do you state -2.5°F here, and above just -1.5°F? Typo or different scenario / tire size?

3.5 is really more to fit 295 width front tires. But I don't use 295 anymore and use 275 35 19 everywhere and switching tires from 4S to Cup 2.

Ok thanks! Why did you switch from 295 to 275? Care to share the whole story behind?

Your rear should be higher camber. -2.0 is within oem specs.

Ok, sounds good, but why do you suggest >2.0°R camber to me, but using "only" -2.0°R yourself? Sorry for the confusion...

295x35x18 is a reasonable track tires - pressure gets optimal, heat management is better. It also works well with harder springs

Very good advice, this was the size I planned for my dedicated track tire set with AD09. Sorry for my tenacity - but if 295/35 R18 was/is that optimal, why did you change to narrower 275/35 R19?

If you fancy dedicated track wheels - 295 35 18 and go through typical r-compound options, since they won't last for long anyway. Find what you like

Yes I fancy! Taking into account your testimonial and the other recent posts re camber switching track/street, I may try 285/35 R19 or even 275/40 R18 with 11" wheels to get the maximum steering precision and minimum camber need out of this narrower/cheaper/easier to fit tires. All with Yoko AD09, as they seem to perform better than C2 and run longer/cheaper than A052...

Suspension matters a lot. I found that MPP SS springs are drivable on the bumpy street with 19 inch wheels and is certainly much more fun on the track. I feel like harder than that and daily would be annoying, so its a good balance. It requires MPP spring arm, though

Yes I agree! I planned to install KW V3 coilovers - which would you prefer and why? MPP Sports Coilovers + SS springs, or KW V3 combined with stiffer KW springs?

I like KW cause there are very common in Austria/Germany, a lot of racing teams use them, it is a leading german manufacturer close to my home, and there is a rebound adjustment extension available for convenient access via frunk.

AFAIK MPPs supplier for their own coilover product is KW - so I´m wondering which of this similar solutions gives us the better tuning/package/experience IRL...

UP FUCA eventually got bolts completely fused, so I can't adjust it anymore.
P.S. I sold MPP FUCA for UP since UP allows caster adjustments. It was a mistake. MPP was less adjustable, but reliable

Thanks, after intending to apply UP FUCAs, arms & bushings in the first place, I may switch to MPP for quality and design reasons. It also makes sense to purchase as much as possible from one vendor, and AFAIK only MPP offers DU oil coolers (and maybe HV battery radiators) and Party Cooling Boxes.

Re fused bolts and other stuck components: I painfully learned that lesson with my last Toyota Hilux overlander build: the threads for height adjustment of my very nice Nestle Performance coilovers got stuck after 2 salty winters. Since then I ask my mechanics to apply copper paste or some similiar synthetic alternative to any new movable part to prevent salt-corosion & fusing. Hope that'll do with the KW & MPP parts...

Thanks again for your sharing and patience!

Greetings to Prague - Julius

 

[juliusb]

Guys, reading all of your testimonials and "lazy comments" re keeping track settings for daily use lead to some fine tuning of my own strategy.

Now I may start with a bit smaller width track tires (285 vs. planned 295) and maximum width wheels (11 vs. planned 10.5), for the minimum camber necessary clearing the fenders, but enough for even tire wear and temperatures in track use.

With this milder track-camber settings to start with the urge to switch to street settings should decline.

Combined with tires featuring stiffer side walls (e.g. Conti SC7 vs. Michelin PS4S, or Yoko AD09 vs. A052 or Michelin Cup2) this new simpler approach should work nicely on track & street with less fuss about adjustment swaps...

Thanks for all of your quick and very usefull responses!

Ciao Julius

 

[juliusb]

One more thing re MPP sports coilovers: is it possible to combine the MPP SS springs with the UP height adjustable rear spring arms instead of MPPs non adjustable rear spring arms? As we tend to the lazzy strategy now, it would just be consequent to be able to fine tune/corner balance the rear height without removing the wheels. Another advantage: spring compression and wheel travel stay the same, sounds nice to me. Even considering the hefty extra 1000$ cost...

 

[Collutio]

One more thing re MPP sports coilovers: is it possible to combine the MPP SS springs with the UP height adjustable rear spring arms instead of MPPs non adjustable rear spring arms? As we tend to the lazzy strategy now, it would just be consequent to be able to fine tune/corner balance the rear height without removing the wheels. Another advantage: spring compression and wheel travel stay the same, sounds nice to me. Even considering the hefty extra 1000$ cost...

MPP uses the KW adjustable top seat so you can adjust them if you take the wheel off. They won't play nicely with the UP arms as you'll have two adjusters and not enough room for spring travel. If you're dead set on running the UP arms, perhaps the best option for mix-and-match would be using custom UP springs that match the spring rate of the MPP kit. Sounds like a bunch of effort and money but it might just work.

I'm running about 120mm from ground to battery (because my work has annoying giant speed bumps of doom) and I've found that lowering it 15mm for the track doesn't make enough of a difference to bother with. You may have a different experience, especially if you have to run even higher for daily use.

 

[Mash]

So you daily drive and track your M3 with the same and only mild -1.5°F/-2.0°R? What happend to "one needs at least 2.5° front camber for evenly distributed tire wear and temperature?"

For sure you are a very sophisticated and experienced M3-track-master - so how did you find this mild front camber settings and for which tire size and brand?



Ok I see your point and welcome the possibilty for lower camber requirements. But why do you state -2.5°F here, and above just -1.5°F? Typo or different scenario / tire size?



Ok thanks! Why did you switch from 295 to 275? Care to share the whole story behind?



Ok, sounds good, but why do you suggest >2.0°R camber to me, but using "only" -2.0°R yourself? Sorry for the confusion...



Very good advice, this was the size I planned for my dedicated track tire set with AD09. Sorry for my tenacity - but if 295/35 R18 was/is that optimal, why did you change to narrower 275/35 R19?



Yes I fancy! Taking into account your testimonial and the other recent posts re camber switching track/street, I may try 285/35 R19 or even 275/40 R18 with 11" wheels to get the maximum steering precision and minimum camber need out of this narrower/cheaper/easier to fit tires. All with Yoko AD09, as they seem to perform better than C2 and run longer/cheaper than A052...



Yes I agree! I planned to install KW V3 coilovers - which would you prefer and why? MPP Sports Coilovers + SS springs, or KW V3 combined with stiffer KW springs?

I like KW cause there are very common in Austria/Germany, a lot of racing teams use them, it is a leading german manufacturer close to my home, and there is a rebound adjustment extension available for convenient access via frunk.

AFAIK MPPs supplier for their own coilover product is KW - so I´m wondering which of this similar solutions gives us the better tuning/package/experience IRL...



Thanks, after intending to apply UP FUCAs, arms & bushings in the first place, I may switch to MPP for quality and design reasons. It also makes sense to purchase as much as possible from one vendor, and AFAIK only MPP offers DU oil coolers (and maybe HV battery radiators) and Party Cooling Boxes.

Re fused bolts and other stuck components: I painfully learned that lesson with my last Toyota Hilux overlander build: the threads for height adjustment of my very nice Nestle Performance coilovers got stuck after 2 salty winters. Since then I ask my mechanics to apply copper paste or some similiar synthetic alternative to any new movable part to prevent salt-corosion & fusing. Hope that'll do with the KW & MPP parts...

Thanks again for your sharing and patience!

Greetings to Prague - Julius

So -2.5F is better for the track, but I'm lazy and gradually destroying outer shoulder of cup2 275 35 19.

-1.5F is better on the same size 4S for the street. And that's what I have.

-2.0R is good enough for both cases. You have -1.0R - that is not enough.

295 35 18 is better for the track, but, again, I got lazy - you need even more F camber with them. 295 is better, 18 is better. For the track. Useless on the street.

Suspension hands down MPP has better valving and springs for Tesla than default KW. Both are same dampers with different shimming, springs and rear height adjustable seats. KW made it really poorly since default damper settings is 4 clicks from closed and you have not enough precision for track setup especially with harder springs. I'm pretty much have to use zero clicks on the track.

SuperSport springs with MPP sport are a very good balance on 19" street and 18" track tires. And they ship in EU directly from KW.

I dont really buy steering precision by tire stretching or larger rims. It's marginal at best and you add excessive wheel weight. FLCA improves steering precision way more. CRB improves it under braking. Those things really work big time.

You need MPP rear spring arms for SS springs. It's certainly height adjustable. It's just adjustable on spring stands which come with the suspension kit and not on the arm kit.

 

[moonchild]

I'm thrilled to share a significant breakthrough I recently experienced in resolving a long-standing brake overheat issue that has troubled me for quite some time.

Last Saturday, after enduring numerous track days where my Endless MX87 brake pads were down to only 40% thickness, I made the decision to replace them with SCHAFFEN ZZ42 pads (a Chinese brand). Since then, I didn't experience any noticeable instances of a soft brake pedal during Saturday's track day.

Previously, I had invested significant time and resources into upgrading the front calipers to AP 9665, experimenting with various front brake pads including Red Attack MQ200 and SCHAFFEN ZZ42, frequently changing brake fluid, and even creating custom brake air ducting—all without success in resolving the brake overheating issue
View attachment 1029173View attachment 1029174

Surprisingly, it turned out that the rear brakes were the blind spot all along, as I had not considered that the rear brake pads could also overheat.

Through discussions in a Tesla track enthusiast group, I was informed that the soft brake pedal I had experienced previously was likely due to ceramicization of the brake pads, and the occasional firmness after a few presses was because the pads had become compressed.

Additionally, although the brake overheat warning still appears on the vehicle's display, according to the response I received from Mountain Pass Performance, this warning is merely a calculated estimate and should be disregarded.

I used the brake temperatures recorded in track mode to compare the quality of the front brake pads, and the effectiveness of brake air ducting was a foolish approach.

any more details on the brake ducts? custom carbon fiber intakes? Even if its not effective as you thought it would be its still looks pretty cool

 

[juliusb]

any more details on the brake ducts? custom carbon fiber intakes? Even if its not effective as you thought it would be its still looks pretty cool

They may not be made in China, but you may check them out anyway: made in Germany. Man I love them looks... They are definitely on my shopping list