MASTER THREAD: Comprehensive Road-Course Modification Guide — Optimizing the 3 for the track

[buckets0fun]

Anyone ever run into this?
Added white line caster bushings and now I’m making contact with endlink on UP Sway bar in the front.
I know it’ll probably stop if I add more bar but the car doesn't need it in the front imo.

what about shorter end links? can you disconnect both end links and check to see if you can get away with a shorter one?

 

[wzj998]

It’s likely the warning is mostly preventing drivers from boiling stock fluid first, and then slicking the stock pads second. Having replaced both, I think you are good to ignore the [electronic] warnings. I have not heard of anyone damaging the stock P calipers themselves from heat.

I attempted to complete current lap after receiving an overheating warning on the central screen yesterday. While the brakes were able to support the completion of the current lap, I noticed that the brake pedal became softer on the subsequent lap. Therefore, it seems that the brake overheating warning on the central screen (not turning yellow but displaying warning text) cannot be ignored. My brake fluid is Endless RF650, and both the brake pads and discs have been modified. I even DIYed air conduct for the front brakes. However, I can only sprint continuously for 2-3 laps at most. Should my next step be upgrading to larger calipers? I want to continue using 18-inch wheels, and it seems convenient to stick with the 355mm brake discs. Would 355mm discs be too small?

 

[buckets0fun]

I attempted to complete current lap after receiving an overheating warning on the central screen yesterday. While the brakes were able to support the completion of the current lap, I noticed that the brake pedal became softer on the subsequent lap. Therefore, it seems that the brake overheating warning on the central screen (not turning yellow but displaying warning text) cannot be ignored. My brake fluid is Endless RF650, and both the brake pads and discs have been modified. I even DIYed air conduct for the front brakes. However, I can only sprint continuously for 2-3 laps at most. Should my next step be upgrading to larger calipers? I want to continue using 18-inch wheels, and it seems convenient to stick with the 355mm brake discs. Would 355mm discs be too small?

When did you last change the fluid? What was the reason you picked RF650 and not SRF? What pads and what discs? Do you have temp readings from your calipers and/or discs? Where are your cooling ducts channeling air into? — you’ll want all of this info before randomly spending money.

I and many others can ignore this warning, without aftermarket brake ducting/cooling.

 

[Vines]

I attempted to complete current lap after receiving an overheating warning on the central screen yesterday. While the brakes were able to support the completion of the current lap, I noticed that the brake pedal became softer on the subsequent lap. Therefore, it seems that the brake overheating warning on the central screen (not turning yellow but displaying warning text) cannot be ignored. My brake fluid is Endless RF650, and both the brake pads and discs have been modified. I even DIYed air conduct for the front brakes. However, I can only sprint continuously for 2-3 laps at most. Should my next step be upgrading to larger calipers? I want to continue using 18-inch wheels, and it seems convenient to stick with the 355mm brake discs. Would 355mm discs be too small?

I understand the RF650 to have better performance at first but its wet boiling point is lower than SRF. From what I have heard RF650 is good for dedicated racecars where you refresh the fluid a couple times a year at least.

SRF is more useful for up to a year or at least a half, since its wet boiling point is so high. I would change the fluid to fresh fluid and try another track day if your RF 650 has been in there 3 months already before spending other money.

 

[wzj998]

I understand the RF650 to have better performance at first but its wet boiling point is lower than SRF. From what I have heard RF650 is good for dedicated racecars where you refresh the fluid a couple times a year at least.

SRF is more useful for up to a year or at least a half, since its wet boiling point is so high. I would change the fluid to fresh fluid and try another track day if your RF 650 has been in there 3 months already before spending other money.

Someone told me that it might be because I'm still using the factory brake fluid line:
When the brake fluid temperature rises, the line softens. As a result, after applying the same pressure, the line expands to some extent, reducing the actual clamping force on the caliper. This could lead to a perceived decrease in braking effectiveness by the vehicle's system, triggering a brake overheating warning.
Does this possibility hold true? If so, would replacing the factory fluid line with a steel braided line solve the issue?

Also, I regularly replace a portion of my RF650 brake fluid after a few track days, and this brake fluid is commonly used in our area.

 

[Vines]

Someone told me that it might be because I'm still using the factory brake fluid line:
When the brake fluid temperature rises, the line softens. As a result, after applying the same pressure, the line expands to some extent, reducing the actual clamping force on the caliper. This could lead to a perceived decrease in braking effectiveness by the vehicle's system, triggering a brake overheating warning.
Does this possibility hold true? If so, would replacing the factory fluid line with a steel braided line solve the issue?

Also, I regularly replace a portion of my RF650 brake fluid after a few track days, and this brake fluid is commonly used in our area.

Steel braided lines will help and are a good upgrade for a track-driven car. It sounds like you say that you bleed the brakes after every few track days, which I interpret to be every couple of months.

I would bleed them before every track day, and refresh the fluid entirely every 3 months. Does the problem go away after new fluid is put in and old fluid totally replaced?

 

[Dangerous Fish]

I attempted to complete current lap after receiving an overheating warning on the central screen yesterday. While the brakes were able to support the completion of the current lap, I noticed that the brake pedal became softer on the subsequent lap. Therefore, it seems that the brake overheating warning on the central screen (not turning yellow but displaying warning text) cannot be ignored. My brake fluid is Endless RF650, and both the brake pads and discs have been modified. I even DIYed air conduct for the front brakes. However, I can only sprint continuously for 2-3 laps at most. Should my next step be upgrading to larger calipers? I want to continue using 18-inch wheels, and it seems convenient to stick with the 355mm brake discs. Would 355mm discs be too small?

You need to tell us exactly how you have modified your brakes - what pads, discs etc. you are using.
You can put bigger calipers/rotors under 18" rims if that's the route you want to take (not necessarily Tesla 18" rims though).
How much track driving do you intend to do?

 

[Mash]

If you keep heatshields on, it wont warm up rubber hose. If not, its a possibility, but none of that relevant to when the alert happens.

 

[wzj998]

If you keep heatshields on, it wont warm up rubber hose. If not, its a possibility, but none of that relevant to when the alert happens.

It's unfortunate news. Just yesterday, I replaced all the factory brake lines with steel braided ones and bought four bottles of brake fluid for replacing them.
I've also purchased temperature stickers and a temperature gun. I'll use them to monitor the actual temperatures of various components the next time I go to track.

 

[wzj998]

I'm thrilled to share a significant breakthrough I recently experienced in resolving a long-standing brake overheat issue that has troubled me for quite some time.

Last Saturday, after enduring numerous track days where my Endless MX87 brake pads were down to only 40% thickness, I made the decision to replace them with SCHAFFEN ZZ42 pads (a Chinese brand). Since then, I didn't experience any noticeable instances of a soft brake pedal during Saturday's track day.

Previously, I had invested significant time and resources into upgrading the front calipers to AP 9665, experimenting with various front brake pads including Red Attack MQ200 and SCHAFFEN ZZ42, frequently changing brake fluid, and even creating custom brake air ducting—all without success in resolving the brake overheating issue

Surprisingly, it turned out that the rear brakes were the blind spot all along, as I had not considered that the rear brake pads could also overheat.

Through discussions in a Tesla track enthusiast group, I was informed that the soft brake pedal I had experienced previously was likely due to ceramicization of the brake pads, and the occasional firmness after a few presses was because the pads had become compressed.

Additionally, although the brake overheat warning still appears on the vehicle's display, according to the response I received from Mountain Pass Performance, this warning is merely a calculated estimate and should be disregarded.

I used the brake temperatures recorded in track mode to compare the quality of the front brake pads, and the effectiveness of brake air ducting was a foolish approach.

 

[wzj998]

I'm thrilled to share a significant breakthrough I recently experienced in resolving a long-standing brake overheat issue that has troubled me for quite some time.

Last Saturday, after enduring numerous track days where my Endless MX87 brake pads were down to only 40% thickness, I made the decision to replace them with SCHAFFEN ZZ42 pads (a Chinese brand). Since then, I didn't experience any noticeable instances of a soft brake pedal during Saturday's track day.

Previously, I had invested significant time and resources into upgrading the front calipers to AP 9665, experimenting with various front brake pads including Red Attack MQ200 and SCHAFFEN ZZ42, frequently changing brake fluid, and even creating custom brake air ducting—all without success in resolving the brake overheating issue
View attachment 1029173View attachment 1029174

Surprisingly, it turned out that the rear brakes were the blind spot all along, as I had not considered that the rear brake pads could also overheat.

Through discussions in a Tesla track enthusiast group, I was informed that the soft brake pedal I had experienced previously was likely due to ceramicization of the brake pads, and the occasional firmness after a few presses was because the pads had become compressed.

Additionally, although the brake overheat warning still appears on the vehicle's display, according to the response I received from Mountain Pass Performance, this warning is merely a calculated estimate and should be disregarded.

I used the brake temperatures recorded in track mode to compare the quality of the front brake pads, and the effectiveness of brake air ducting was a foolish approach.

Why this thread feels like soft advertisement? I don’t think anyone in this forum will buy the brake pads I’m currently using. The purchase method must be very complicated and not cost-effective. AP? Endless? Everyone know them. Red Attack?? I never said they were good.
But the problem now is that after this post is moved to a reply, I can't edit it. The key is to use rear brake pads with adequate performance, it doesn't matter which brand you choose.

 

[juliusb]

@subieworx: first thanks a lot for all of your informative posts. Currently I am studying this and other TMC threads to prepare for my own future 2022 P3D track/daily build. It should perform well on Nürburgring and several other tracks in middle Europe. Thus following questions:

I am at -4.2 with the MPP arms. Run Model Y lower control arms and you get more camber as they are longer than the Model 3.

Which MY front lower control arms (FLCA) did you apply? OEM or any aftermarket brand?
How much camber did the longer MY FLCA alone add?
What is the miminum possible combinated camber of this duo for daily/street use?

You can definitely get more camber with the UP arms as I had almost 5 at one point.

Which combination gave you the fastet/most convenient conversion from track to daily settings: MPP FUCA+MY FLCA or just the UP FUCAs?

UP claims "quick camber change functionality allowing for ultra precise changes between race camber and street camber (=2° swap) in under 5 minutes using just an Allen wrench and a floor jack". Did that swap work for you like that IRL as claimed?

I have had some issues with the ball joints wearing out on the UP arms.

After how many hours/days of track use did this wear occur?
Is this a commonly known week spot of the UP FUCAs, and if yes, how much more durable should the MPP FUCAs be?
Did you get free replacement ball joints from UP?

Thanks in advance! Cheers Julius from Salzburg, Austria

 

[juliusb]

@Mash first big cudos to your sophisticated track-weapon and sharing your experience with the Tesla community. As mentionend before, I am collecting infos to prepare my own build, therefore:

I tried daily high front camber on 4s and cup 2 - not enough front grip and wears inner edge.

1. What is your typical camber front/rear for acceptable and optimal daily/street tire behaviour?

2. If using the UP FUCAs and -3.5° front camber for track use, would the 2° quick-reducing-feature resulting in -1,5° be suitable for daily use, including some courageous mountain road drives (of course within reason)?

Currently I tend to aprox. -3.5° front/-2.5° rear for track use and fender clearance for the big tires, and aprox. -1.5°/-1° for daily/street use with following tire/wheel combos:

1. dedicated daily non-track winter/snow/slush tires in 245/45 R18 100V on 18x9: Conti WinterContact TS 870 P
2. all seasons for daily use from Oct. til April and maybe track use if snowy/very wet/very cold in 245/45 R18 100Y on 18x9: Conti AllSeasonContact 2
3. dedicated wet tires for track, and daily use from April til Oct. in 265/40 ZR18 101Y on 18x10: Conti SportContact 7
4. V1 dedicated dry/moist track use (no DD) in 285/35 R19 103W on 19x11: Yoko AD09 cause cheaper and longer lasting vs. A052
or
4. V2 dedicated dry/moist track use (no DD) in 295/35 R18 103W on 18x11: Yoko AD09 - wider but smaller OD vs. V1=285/35 R19

In Salzburg/Austria and surrounding we may have snowy/slushy road conditions in winter, therefore all seasons alone without real winter tires would be a bit to risky...

Your take on my planned combo and settings? Of course I would add all the necessary UP or MPP FUCAs, arms, bearings etc. to reduce tire wear and enhance grip & safety.

Thanks a lot in advance! Ciao Julius

 

[juliusb]

... of course everybody is appreciated to response to my questions, so go ahead if you like to share!

Thanx Julius

 

[Mash]

@Mash first big cudos to your sophisticated track-weapon and sharing your experience with the Tesla community. As mentionend before, I am collecting infos to prepare my own build, therefore:


1. What is your typical camber front/rear for acceptable and optimal daily/street tire behaviour?

2. If using the UP FUCAs and -3.5° front camber for track use, would the 2° quick-reducing-feature resulting in -1,5° be suitable for daily use, including some courageous mountain road drives (of course within reason)?

Currently I tend to aprox. -3.5° front/-2.5° rear for track use and fender clearance for the big tires, and aprox. -1.5°/-1° for daily/street use with following tire/wheel combos:

1. dedicated daily non-track winter/snow/slush tires in 245/45 R18 100V on 18x9: Conti WinterContact TS 870 P
2. all seasons for daily use from Oct. til April and maybe track use if snowy/very wet/very cold in 245/45 R18 100Y on 18x9: Conti AllSeasonContact 2
3. dedicated wet tires for track, and daily use from April til Oct. in 265/40 ZR18 101Y on 18x10: Conti SportContact 7
4. V1 dedicated dry/moist track use (no DD) in 285/35 R19 103W on 19x11: Yoko AD09 cause cheaper and longer lasting vs. A052
or
4. V2 dedicated dry/moist track use (no DD) in 295/35 R18 103W on 18x11: Yoko AD09 - wider but smaller OD vs. V1=285/35 R19

In Salzburg/Austria and surrounding we may have snowy/slushy road conditions in winter, therefore all seasons alone without real winter tires would be a bit to risky...

Your take on my planned combo and settings? Of course I would add all the necessary UP or MPP FUCAs, arms, bearings etc. to reduce tire wear and enhance grip & safety.

Thanks a lot in advance! Ciao Julius

I'm keeping -1.5F, -2.0R. Optimal would be OEM specs.
That one is a compromise for spirited driving.

UP FUCA eventually got bolts completely fused, so I can't adjust it anymore. I also don't use quick swap feature, since I'm lazy to do it, it gets stuck easy and you have to fix toe there and back. I just go like that street and track. It damages shoulder somewhat, but rubber would lose flexibility faster anyway.

I dont believe that -3.5 is optimal for the track. At the time I checked that my optimal front was -2.5 based on tire temps at the pit lane. 3.5 is really more to fit 295 width front tires. But I don't use 295 anymore and use 275 35 19 everywhere and switching tires from 4S to Cup 2.

Your rear should be higher camber. -2.0 is within oem specs. 295x35x18 is a reasonable track tires - pressure gets optimal, heat management is better. It also works well with harder springs. I can't recommend specific rubber - i only used with Tesla 4S, Cup 2, A052. Last one is fast, but sketchy to drive to the track if there is any chance if the rain. Also it lasts single EV track day before it noticeably starts losing traction. I use daily 4S if it's wet day - works great. If it's a dry day I swap to cup2 and let it cool down mid stint.

4S is usable until 0C. I'd stick to whatever stock winter tires (I have stock 20 inch for that) and use 4s as a daily or wet track - my size feels right. If you fancy dedicated track wheels - 295 35 18 and go through typical r-compound options, since they won't last for long anyway. Find what you like.

Suspension matters a lot. I found that MPP SS springs are drivable on the bumpy street with 19 inch wheels and it certainly much more fun on the track. I feel like harder than that and daily would be annoying, so its a good balance. It requires MPP spring arm, though.

P.S. I sold MPP FUCA for UP since UP allows caster adjustments. It was a mistake. MPP was less adjustable, but reliable.
P.P.S. Front suspension parts from MPP are worthy. Rear probably inserts for the subframe and caster, toe arms only.

 

[superflyrolla]

Agreed, the quick camber change on the front arms from both companies is a marketing gimmick. Getting your toe back where you want it before/after every race day would be a major headache and your rear alignment would still need attention.

After 5 winters in a Tesla, I also would not suggest driving in snow and salt with aftermarket suspension. I’ve done it and had multiple issues. Damping adjustment knobs that wouldn’t turn, FUCA bolts seized in the arms, corroded top hat threads, adjustable toe/camber arms need to be taken apart and cleaned every spring. It can be done, but I’m not doing it again.

 

[Collutio]

...

Suspension matters a lot. I found that MPP SS springs are drivable on the bumpy street with 19 inch wheels and it certainly much more fun on the track. I feel like harder than that and daily would be annoying, so its a good balance. It requires MPP spring arm, though.
...

I agree about the suspension, I'm running MPP SS springs and have a set of 18" wheels with Michelin Primacy tyres for daily use. I find the comfort-focused tyres cancel out the change from sports to supersports springs more or less, and the firmer damper settings makes up for the reduced feel in the tyres. They are down on outright grip but I'm not pushing hard on the road and it's great having enough comfort and efficiency for road trips, and only being an alignment and wheel swap away from a track beast.

 

[Mash]

Agreed, the quick camber change on the front arms from both companies is a marketing gimmick. Getting your toe back where you want it before/after every race day would be a major headache and your rear alignment would still need attention.

After 5 winters in a Tesla, I also would not suggest driving in snow and salt with aftermarket suspension. I’ve done it and had multiple issues. Damping adjustment knobs that wouldn’t turn, FUCA bolts seized in the arms, corroded top hat threads, adjustable toe/camber arms need to be taken apart and cleaned every spring. It can be done, but I’m not doing it again.

I had no issues with MPP FUCA, camber, toe arms and KW dampers. I cleaned threads when I adjusted them. Rear camber is less of an issue, -2.0 works fine for street and track. Unless UP have changed nuts and bolts on their FUCA since 2021, I can't recommend it.

 

[Lindenwood]

Agreed, the quick camber change on the front arms from both companies is a marketing gimmick. Getting your toe back where you want it before/after every race day would be a major headache and your rear alignment would still need attention.

After 5 winters in a Tesla, I also would not suggest driving in snow and salt with aftermarket suspension. I’ve done it and had multiple issues. Damping adjustment knobs that wouldn’t turn, FUCA bolts seized in the arms, corroded top hat threads, adjustable toe/camber arms need to be taken apart and cleaned every spring. It can be done, but I’m not doing it again.

I, too, quickly found the extra 90-120 minutes a month tweaking alignments back and forth was not worth the modest (~20%…?) loss in tire life running 3+ degrees of front camber (and ~2.5 out back). In 100k miles I might have to buy 5 sets instead of 4, but in that same time I’d also spend dozens of extra hours under the car.

(I am still very happy with my MPP arms, of course! I’m just part of the #noshim club now ).

Also…I, too, am currently wrestling with a seized height adjustment ring after my 2nd winter on adjustable coilovers . Currently in monster-truck mode until I get some time over the next few weeks to remove it to take it to the bench.

 

[Collutio]

I, too, quickly found the extra 90-120 minutes a month tweaking alignments back and forth was not worth the modest (~20%…?) loss in tire life running 3+ degrees of front camber (and ~2.5 out back). In 100k miles I might have to buy 5 sets instead of 4, but in that same time I’d also spend dozens of extra hours under the car.

I made myself up a little run sheet and a tool kit that only contained what I needed, as well as a little table of how many turns to correct the toe front and rear. It takes me about 45 minutes to change from one setting to another including changing wheels, so I second your '90 minutes a month' in case anyone else is wondering.