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Model 3 Performance Waiting Room
- Thread starter seadog
- Start date
Mine still shows May 2022. Looking very unlikely since no ships have set sail yet.
I'm considering cancelling my M3P order....probably won't but i might just do so.
Reason being, is that I expect that if this comes with the LG M50 (5L) battery (likely) - then it really will hold back the performance model compared to the outgoing 2021 / Q1 2022 M3P which had the Panasonic 82Kwh.
From the power output graph below the LG battery will be entirely limiting the output from any SOC below 100%, the Panasonic used in M3P up until March this year has a lot more headroom and puts out almost full power down to 70% SOC. In fact the Panasonic battery models at 65% or more SOC will be faster than the LG at 100%.
Worse still is that a Long range with acceleration boost, at any state of charge, will be just as fast if not a bit faster (due to smaller wheels) than an M3P that has it's SOC at 60% or below....and this is not just after 60mph, this is likely to be from off the line or any speed.
Considering that most the time the car will only be charged to 80% to preserve battery life, it will be massively down on power to the point that only some cosmetics and slightly better brakesn really differentiate it from a LR with boost.
I'm also going to be changing the wheels as soon as it's delivered so hardly gaining any benefits for the extra £5000 the 'performance' model costs (£3000 if factoring in the boost on a LR). I ordered the performance model purely on performance....
Now there might be some slight difference due to a more powerful rear motor supposedly being in the 2022 Q2 models, however this extra motor power capability is useless if it's entirely limited by the battery maximum output.
What i want to see are some real world 0-60 and 1/4 mile at SOC's below 100% on LG based M3P's - that will be telling for sure.
There is also still a chance that Panasonic 3L (82Kwh) batteries might be used on the performance models still......but from everything I have read - I doubt it.
Reason being, is that I expect that if this comes with the LG M50 (5L) battery (likely) - then it really will hold back the performance model compared to the outgoing 2021 / Q1 2022 M3P which had the Panasonic 82Kwh.
From the power output graph below the LG battery will be entirely limiting the output from any SOC below 100%, the Panasonic used in M3P up until March this year has a lot more headroom and puts out almost full power down to 70% SOC. In fact the Panasonic battery models at 65% or more SOC will be faster than the LG at 100%.
Worse still is that a Long range with acceleration boost, at any state of charge, will be just as fast if not a bit faster (due to smaller wheels) than an M3P that has it's SOC at 60% or below....and this is not just after 60mph, this is likely to be from off the line or any speed.
Considering that most the time the car will only be charged to 80% to preserve battery life, it will be massively down on power to the point that only some cosmetics and slightly better brakesn really differentiate it from a LR with boost.
I'm also going to be changing the wheels as soon as it's delivered so hardly gaining any benefits for the extra £5000 the 'performance' model costs (£3000 if factoring in the boost on a LR). I ordered the performance model purely on performance....
Now there might be some slight difference due to a more powerful rear motor supposedly being in the 2022 Q2 models, however this extra motor power capability is useless if it's entirely limited by the battery maximum output.
What i want to see are some real world 0-60 and 1/4 mile at SOC's below 100% on LG based M3P's - that will be telling for sure.
There is also still a chance that Panasonic 3L (82Kwh) batteries might be used on the performance models still......but from everything I have read - I doubt it.
I get that we are not supposed to charge these to 100% as it extends the battery life however if it gives you better performance why wouldn't you, I've never bought a performance car and thought I'd better not drive it hard as I want the next owner to have all the benefits of buying a new car, I accept that some may think that's a bit of an arsey thing to say but I always have it serviced as it should be so never thought it was an issue. Does Tesla actually state not to charge it to 100% all the time?
It won’t come with a battery that will hold back the performance. It would be false advertising if it changed and you were not informed. Only LR has come with the 5L. I’m not sure what the MYP comes with.
They have an official recommendation not to go above 90% daily, only for a planned long journey should you charge to 100%.
For best battery longevity (and hence potential resale value of your car down the road), it is best to keep it in between 20-80% SOC.
Still even at 90% there is a significant drop in available power on a M3P with the LG battery.
No M3P has come with a 5L. Plus it always takes Tesla a while to optimise new batteries when they release them.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
No, not that I can think of, more sort of "advisory". If you accidentally leave the LIMIT at 100% and charge (e.g. overnight) like that for a few days (i.e. so the car is sat at 100% for "some time") you get a warning on dashboard "Car set to 100%" to remind you.
On those days when I have a long trip I work on the basis of setting off shortly after charging to 100% (or more correctly charging the car, from 90% to 100%, starting 2 hours before departure (it takes about 1h30m) to warm the battery etc.)
I've had Tesla since 2015, that car did 95K miles, and Charge Limit was normally set to 90%. The other family-member cars we have had total another 100K miles. Can't say we've ever had any degradation more than would be expected. Plenty of "Airport taxis" that have been charged to 100% overnight and left sitting like that ... every night ... and frequently supercharged - and done 200K miles and I don't remember stories of them having significant degradation either.
Most of my miles are motorway, so charging to 100% to be able to launch out of my drive!! for the 10 minutes to motorway wouldn't be something I wouldn't routinely do ... but if I had some mates coming round for a look-see then I would (and set the "Launch prep" so everything was nice and tickety-boo when the arrived).
I wouldn't bother setting 80% (or anything else less than 90%) to help battery life. I'm sure it would make a difference on paper, but I'm sceptical it will be enough to notice / significant. I always charge (immediately rather than wait for Off Peak cheap rate) if I arrive at < 20%. But, for me, that's it. If I had to leave the car sitting for many weeks I would set it up to maintain, say, 50% as over a long period that would probably be beneficial ... but a daily limit of 90% means if I need to go somewhere, unexpectedly, I have good range.
Do you need 100% performance every time you set off? Of course could be that you will "need" it at the first set of lights you come to
but for me the need for 100% would be specific occasions, and the rest of the time I've been happy with whatever I got when I floored-it.Thank you WannebeOwner for your post that is very helpful and informative, I also do motorway miles everyday however I will be charging at work so will be driving straight after it getting to 100% however I think I will charge to 90% most of the time and just drop a 100% charge in every now and again just for a bit of fun.No, not that I can think of, more sort of "advisory". If you accidentally leave the LIMIT at 100% and charge (e.g. overnight) like that for a few days (i.e. so the car is sat at 100% for "some time") you get a warning on dashboard "Car set to 100%" to remind you.
On those days when I have a long trip I work on the basis of setting off shortly after charging to 100% (or more correctly charging the car, from 90% to 100%, starting 2 hours before departure (it takes about 1h30m) to warm the battery etc.)
I've had Tesla since 2015, that car did 95K miles, and Charge Limit was normally set to 90%. The other family-member cars we have had total another 100K miles. Can't say we've ever had any degradation more than would be expected. Plenty of "Airport taxis" that have been charged to 100% overnight and left sitting like that ... every night ... and frequently supercharged - and done 200K miles and I don't remember stories of them having significant degradation either.
Most of my miles are motorway, so charging to 100% to be able to launch out of my drive!! for the 10 minutes to motorway wouldn't be something I wouldn't routinely do ... but if I had some mates coming round for a look-see then I would (and set the "Launch prep" so everything was nice and tickety-boo when the arrived).
I wouldn't bother setting 80% (or anything else less than 90%) to help battery life. I'm sure it would make a difference on paper, but I'm sceptical it will be enough to notice / significant. I always charge (immediately rather than wait for Off Peak cheap rate) if I arrive at < 20%. But, for me, that's it. If I had to leave the car sitting for many weeks I would set it up to maintain, say, 50% as over a long period that would probably be beneficial ... but a daily limit of 90% means if I need to go somewhere, unexpectedly, I have good range.
Do you need 100% performance every time you set off? Of course could be that you will "need" it at the first set of lights you come to
I really hope it doesn't come with the LG - I had assumed the reason why they were still shipping the M3P with the panasonic (yet the LR has had the LG for some time) was due to the LG not being able to put out enough discharge power for the M3P. I had surmised this would have been the case when I did some calculations myself a while ago, based on the internal resistance of the LG M50 batteries used (i'm an electronics engineer)...and my fears look to have now been confirmed by posts and data from a very knowledgeable guy on the tff-forum.de forum.
Tesla have been shipping the LG M50 / 5L batteries in the Model Y Performance, but that car has always had the LG in Europe so no one will see any difference. The M3P has always had the Panasonic, but now looks to be changing to the same LG battery as in the Model Y performance (and LR)....and even though it will probably just about meet the 3.1 second (with roll out) acceleration figure - unlike the panasonic models this will literally only be achievable at 100% SOC with a very hot battery. From what I can see, as soon as you drop to even 90% that figure is going to be noticeably impacted, and i also expect that initial addictive 'shove' in to your back seat when you floor it, i.e. the peak power, is going to be noticeably less than the panasonic models - at any SOC.
Now I will say some of this is conjecture - just unless there is somehow a massive jump in motor / inverter efficiency, then the raw numbers for the LG 5L battery pack, the same one that's in the MYP, show it will be holding back the M3P due to limits on it's maximum discharge power.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
That's a good thing to do anyway. A charge to 100% (AND allow it to finish - that can take 30 minutes, sometime more, after 100% is reached) rebalances the cells.
I'll be interested to hear if you can tell the difference between a launch with 100% charge, and one with 90%. I can understand that all the stuff surrounding Battery Prep and Cheater-Stance etc. can make a difference ... and the two-pedal launch-prep ... but when I had the performance in practice I never actually bothered with that, just did stomp-pedal.
Can people (rather than "instruments") actually notice the difference? (I have no idea on that, but I'm curious). I also don't know how much slower we are talking about - is it as much as 0.5s? (which seems a lot as a "number" relatively to 3.1s, but I doubt I would notice much difference, as a passenger, between the two, and even less so if the difference is, say, 0.25s).
For someone taking the car to the track and wanting every last smidgeon of advantage then I can see it being important. But will it be noticeable away-from-the-lights when road-surface, road/tyre temperature , and so on will have an impact - perhaps more significant than the 100% vs. 90% difference?)
With regards to what battery is coming in what, this chart show's the current battery distribution
MIC = Made in China (Gigafactory Shenzhen China)
MIG = Made in Germany (Gigafactory Berlin Germany)
Purple represents the LG M50 (5L) battery, 79Kwh.
Green is the Panasonic 3L battery, 82Kwh
You can see that for Q2 2022 the M3P is slated to be switched to the same LG battery as the M3LR and the MYP/MYLR. It is also rumoured that some Q1 2022 M3P's have already been shipped/shipping with the LG.
MIC = Made in China (Gigafactory Shenzhen China)
MIG = Made in Germany (Gigafactory Berlin Germany)
Purple represents the LG M50 (5L) battery, 79Kwh.
Green is the Panasonic 3L battery, 82Kwh
You can see that for Q2 2022 the M3P is slated to be switched to the same LG battery as the M3LR and the MYP/MYLR. It is also rumoured that some Q1 2022 M3P's have already been shipped/shipping with the LG.
It's that initial shove in to your back seat that you will notice - that is mainly made up of the peak output torque which falls off after a second or 2.....if the battery BMS is inherently limiting the maximum discharge power you will certainly feel the difference compared to the panasonic models.
This has been seen when comparing a 2020 vs a 2021 M3P in the US....on the 2021 facelift they limited the peak power output on flooring it but increased the sustained power a bit after that....this resulted in smoother acceleration but less initial shove in to your seat.
I am expecting that the LG battery discharge limits will result in another drop in that initial 'push you into your seat' shove when you floor it.
This was expected, the M3P to start using M50 in Q1, but not sure any appeared. Tesla seemed to delay this, possibly related to the LR having to wait for AB to become available, which took longer than expected and not a good sign.
The 5L is a smaller battery so the advertised ranges would have to drop too. I don’t think we will be seeing the 5L on the M3P yet. If as mentioned the MYP is using it and that has a more powerful motor then I’m a bit sceptical of those graphs. I’ve seen them a while back so they may be even preproduction numbers.
The M3P range dropped quite a while ago now, in what we thought was preparation for using the smaller capacity M50 battery.
Still very sceptical of the graphs as this battery is being used with a more powerful motor in the MYP. Looks like early data from an unoptimised battery.
The data is based on multiple logs from ScanMyTesla.
The data from the Panasonic models has been established over a long period of time.
The data for the LG M50 battery is taken from the MYP and MYLR/M3LR, over what period of time I don't know but the chart was posted end of March....now this is not to say there definitely won't be some improvements in the M3P BMS discharge profile, but I don't expect there will be vs the same battery in the MYP.
Twice the internal resistance of the Panasonic batteries is the primary limiter in the maximum discharge power of the LG M50 cells. It's the same reason why the LG M50 battery packs can't sustain 250KW supercharging on a V3 supercharger for more than a few seconds, unlike the panasonic's which will flat line (hold) charging at the 250kw up until about 20% SOC, the LG drop's quickly as they will otherwise internally overheat - and this is after the recent update to improve charging performance on the LG M50 pack.
Unless there is some new version of the M50 cells being used in the M3P packs - then they will have the same power limitations of the MYP batteries.
The more powerful motors look to not being fully (if at all) utilised - but Tesla have a habit of their technology not being synchronised....like more powerful motors than the battery being used at the time can power.....only later being utilised when better battery technology comes out. I suspect improvements into the motor power are in preparation to the transition to the 4680 cells on the MY and later M3. Tesla are also going to drop the older rear motors, rather than have one type for the MYP and another for the M3P - just for manufacturing cost of scale reasons.
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