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Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)
- Thread starter mookhead
- Start date
You are implying the possibility of fantastic scenarios which have not happened - abrupt violent maneuvers beyond the capability of a human driver to stop.
Drivers have steering and braking override. I've done Autosteer testing on roundabouts in the dead of night with no traffic around. AP does not override my control of the wheel.
Can you share your educational and professional experiences that makes things so "clear" on Tesla's liability?
Cruise control was invented in 1948 <---> Level 4.99999999999 Autonomy in 2024
The legal liability for Cruise Control and Level 4 Autonomy is ALWAYS to the driver.
There comes to a point of annoyance where I spend an extra minute to figure out if someone is actually a Tesla owner that has used AP substantially enough to speak intelligently on the subject . I think I'm 10 for 10 at this point.
It's like having 10 people tell everyone about how making kids work when they all virgins.
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That's not correct. If a product is defective, then the manufacturer has liability. A manufacturer can't wash their hands clean of responsibility by claiming that they sold their product "as is" and don't know if it works properly. Note that saying that Tesla has liability is not the same as saying the driver has no liability. Both can be liable at the same time. Also, the fact that the driver can (and should) be ticketed for the behavior of AP (ie can't argue to the cop that 'AP did it') doesn't mean that Tesla doesn't have civil liability (and possibly even criminal liability if they were extremely reckless in their product design-- though criminal liability is unlikely).
I think part of the issue here is that the "gore area" is so long. In many other cases you would see the whole triangle, and view the lines on both sides as "double white lines".
But in the case of the highway 85 left offramp, the gore area has slowly grown to become just as wide as a lane and people may not have noticed it is part of a really long triangle.
But in the case of the highway 85 left offramp, the gore area has slowly grown to become just as wide as a lane and people may not have noticed it is part of a really long triangle.
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If you left a blender running, left the house for hours and in the meantime the motor catches fire and burns the house down - is Oster liable?
It "might" have design considerations that would try to shut the motor down at a certain temperature but if it didnt - you did not use the product in its intended design and parameter.
AP insist YOUR HANDS MUST BE ON THE WHEEL. Whether you do or not, it is not Tesla's liability.
Civil liability is a completely different standard in both punishment and preponderance of evidence needed for judgment. I hope Tesla is not unlucky enough to get 12 people like you who argue on emotional reasons "they are reckless because I think they are reckless" versus "Is this negligence or not?".
The NTSB did not find there was a defect in the Model S that Mr. Brown was driving in Florida that crashed into the white trailer truck. They said the system operated as it was designed. They did conclude that because the driver was able to keep his hands off the steering wheel for a long time, that the AP system should have some type of warning built in to reduce risk of it happening again. There were no fines/penalties filed against Tesla. Tesla is not reckless in their product design.
What kind of car are you driving BTW?
Question - Were you around on the TMC forums when AP2 was initially rolled out? Back when people were experiencing unexpected false braking incidents, and other issues? Did you see all those posts, and how critical owners were being of Tesla. Both in not being upfront about how beta it was, and how it was so beta that it shouldn't have been released. It wasn't just the lane-steering element of AP, but other elements as well.
That lack of knowledge about what it was like on TMC in those days is probably why you didn't understand what I was getting at. Or the fact that I wrote it at 3am in the morning, and maybe it didn't come across like I expected.
I was trying to make a fairly middle of the ground argument that was neither pro-Tesla or Anti-Tesla. Did you realize that? That the Tesla approach has some good things, and some bad things about it.
Anyways,
Tesla doesn't have just one type of customer.
They have some customers like me who want the bleeding edge. I don't mind writing long emails to some company about things it does wrong. I have a pretty good understanding of how it works. I'm not going to run into any firetrucks anytime soon.
Then they have people who just want something that works like it's supposed to. Who don't want the "SURPRISE" moment when their car lusts for a truck. The people who don't want their wives or husbands yelling at them. There are quite a few videos on TMC where the passenger is yelling at the driver, and the driver is going "It wasn't me. It was AP".
EV-lutioin
Active Member
Exactly. And the lack of painted chevrons... or diagonal lines or something.
No chevrons. I would drive over them to get a speed boost and would start tossing banana peels out the window from reflex.
Tam
Well-Known Member
Not true!
Tesla calls that kind of "defective" as "It works as designed."
There were quite a few reports of low speed collision damages caused by summon but owners still had to pay for all those damages.
Tesla's liability for summon damages has been zero!
Slightly off topic: But Caltrans sometimes does weird stuff. Like, they would repave a highway but will leave some sections unpaved. This 85/101 split is like that. They paved the road leading up to the split, but left this small section. I am confident that if they repaved it, it would have better lane striping, perhaps Chevrons on gore points , and better signage. Can everybody on this thread complaint on the district 4 maintenance page to repave this portion ? I have already done this and have recently gotten good responses in other freeways.
Ultimately this comes down to interpretation.
Some people are of the "give me liberty or give me death" type. They typically call themselves engineers.
Some people are "this product must protect me even from my own stupidity" type. These people are generally known as lawyers.
Historically what happened is:
Tesla changed it to add more nag warnings, and moved to a more timer based system. Versus just being based on the confidence of the line recognition/following.
The NHTSA was satisfied with the changes Tesla made after the accident.
Tesla owners took up various positions on it. Most seemed to be okay with having more nags, and some were so opposed to it that they vowed to never do a firmware upgrade. That they paid for a feature, and they weren't going to give it up. I upgraded since I felt like Tesla had to because they were between a rock and hardplace at the time. Sometimes it's best to just play nice.
Clearly MobileEye viewed it as reckless, and was a big part of the breakup well before Tesla wanted to.
The media largely portrayed it as reckless.
Now it seems to be round two where I don't think the reckless argument will get much traction.
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Oh, been there done that. I had a "auto" lane change once where the car stepped on the throttle, jerked over, then had to quickly brake because the guy in the other lane wasn't going that fast. My husband in the passenger seat was startled/scared as he was happily texting on his phone at the time. I got an earful. The protocol after that was I would tell him "hold onto your potatoes!" right as I selected the blinker so he would know we were going for a ride, LOL.
10.5 has been a nice relief. Even with my short tenure on AP 2.5, I have had it scare me a few times even with my hands on the wheel and alert.
EV-lutioin
Active Member
I'm confused, you agree with me about painted chevrons, but disagree with me about painted chevrons??? I promise I don't work for the paint industry.
mkspeedr
Member
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