Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)

[bonnie]

Let's all remember that we don't know if he was using AP when the accident happened. And even if he was, it is extremely easy to regain control and deny any odd behaviors by AP. I don't even have to think about it and I'll have disabled AP. And this guy was a software engineer, so he understood how systems like this work.

This is for the media: This is 2018. No one in their right mind would get in to a car that you cannot take control of at will. We do not have self-driving cars. AP is only there to help. Even if AP was driving toward a concrete barrier, every single attentive driver out there can regain control easily and avoid the crash. It would be nuts for Tesla to have designed AP to be hard to disengage.

I know headlines need to be made today, but we will have to wait for the official report to draw conclusions.

Exactly. Thank you.

 

[Joelc]

Why would he be in the 85 HOV exit lane if he needs the south bound 101 HOV lane? (Ok, not proven but it appears to me that way).

It's been mentioned previously, but the double HOV lanes start in Palo Alto 6.5 miles north of the 85 HOV split and it's not unusual for non HOV traffic speed to be at a slow crawl or complete stop, especially around that 85 HOV split.

So HOV drivers tend to stay in the #1 lane as long as possible and use #2 HOV as a safety buffer when vehicles in the non-HOV lane (mostly illegal non-HOV, IMO) suddenly jump into the #2 HOV lane.

As I drove by that 85/101 HOV section again this morning, I noticed the solid HOV lanes are very faded.
If you look at the dashcam video I posted earlier, notice the solid HOV lane lines to the left of my car and see how the lines blend and seem to disappear.

 

[Mrcook4590]

There was at least one poster here who corroborated exactly this earlier in this thread: Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)


I don't think anyone is trying to blame AP or find fault in any single thing. We're only trying to determine if AP was a factor in the collision. I think this is very important for the future of autonomous driving and the public's acceptance of it. If the public, or Tesla, or the state agencies that maintain the roads and highways can learn something from this crash to prevent others like it, that's the preferred outcome of this discussion.

Of course you can't blame AP, because AP is not supposed to be fully autonomous or perfect and every Tesla driver knows that they have to stay in control. Walter was a very smart man, a career software engineer, and a technology enthusiast. He understood the limitations of AP as well (if not better) as anyone.

As in most serious crashes, there were multiple failures here that contributed to the cause and the fatality of this crash. I don't think any single factor can be pointed as "blame". In this case, knowing the driver and how he typically used AP, I think AP was a factor. The driver may have been distracted or not paying attention; also a factor. The improperly reset attenuation barrier was also a factor in the severity of the damage and injury to the driver. The lane markings and lack of stripes, rumble strips, or chevron patterns in the gore point are also a factor. The position of the sun may have also been a factor. The position of other cars on the road -- also a factor. I think you get my point.

I am also a software engineer (not at Apple). I do not write software for self-driving cars, but the principles are the same regardless of the type of software. Whenever there is a critical failure in a system, you must identify and rank all the factors that contributed to the failure. Autonomous vehicles are a very challenging problem, because many of the factors are external (i.e. roads, other vehicles, weather, lighting, etc). Most well-designed systems require multiple points of failure to fail in a catastrophic way, and I think that's what happened here. So ... what can we learn from it? We have to identify all the factors and see which of them are practical and feasible to mitigate in future similar scenarios.

Could it be that something as simple as some striping or chevron paint in the gore point could have prevented this? Maybe.
If Caltrans had reset the attenuation barrier prior to the crash, would Walter still be alive? Maybe.
If the vehicle's front radar was programmed to alert an inattentive driver to an upcoming stationary object in the path of travel, could that have prevented this? Maybe.

It's 2018 and autonomous driving is in it's infancy. I remember when Walter first got his new Model X and I rode in it with him for the first time, I was very impressed with the car in general and particularly the technology features. I was jealous. I wanted one, too. Walter was an early adopter of technology like me, and was likely just as excited about the promise of a fully autonomous driving future as I am. Self-driving cars are going to be more and more a part of our lives in the coming years. If one good thing can come out of this tragedy, it would be improvements in the technology or in the physical roads/markings to make it safer and easier for both human and computer drivers in the future.


Last point: I don't think Tesla is being singled out here. It's self-driving technology (and particularly the failures) that have grabbed the public's attention recently. The fatal self-driving Uber crash with the pedestrian seems to be getting a lot more national press coverage than this crash. It was a Volvo, not a Tesla.

Thank you for your insight. It must be difficult reading all of this speculation when he was, in fact, a friend in real life for you. It's too bad another driver did not have a dash cam so authorities could see exactly what happened to prevent future accidents. It might be wise for there to be a traffic camera at this point if there are that many accidents... only after they make this area safer with more blatant signage/indicators of danger, of course!

 

[SMAlset]

Thanks @bhzmark for just calling attention again to Marbrough's post about the bus that tragically collided and lives were lost at 101N and 85. I must have missed it first time around and it's interesting reading from the NTSB's report conclusion standpoint. Same type of attenuator barrier installed there too. Lives lost and many injuries.

I remember this day very well as my husband was passing by it in slow/stopped traffic after it had happened and called me and sent a photo. Like the Tesla's front demolished I was dumbfounded to see a bus laying on top of a concrete wall like that. In this case as I recall the bus driver had been driving from southern California and had just a short way to go for his next stop. Believe driver fatigue might have also been a factor. But from the photo you can see what happens when a large double decker bus impacts the barrier head on.

So here we have the same barrier from a fatal accident two years ago with signage issues. I'll be looking for what determination the NTSB has for the roadway markings in this recent accident.

 

[LMNOP]

It's too bad another driver did not have a dash cam so authorities could see exactly what happened to prevent future accidents.

Who knows ... there may have been. The may have also been witnesses who saw the crash unfold. Seems like CHP and investigators are staying quiet about it for now. I'll probably take a while, but I think we'll ultimately get some answers.

 

[Az_Rael]

After watching the ABC 7 report, it looks like the “navigational” issue was the Autopilot complaint according to the family. I am guessing the owner may have used both terms when complaining, and the service advisor didn’t write the whole complaint out on the service ticket.

Screenshots of the text from the family to the news reporter:

 

[NeverFollow]

Without doing an extensive CVC check, there is a law against passing or driving on the shoulder.
On freeways, the shoulder has a marker which is a solid white line in most areas.

You are not allowed to drive in there except in an emergency, hence the term emergency lane.
The wording is a touch ambiguous which says you must drive in the traffic lanes,
and the shoulder is not a traffic lane.

The way the separating median wall was built,
leaves enough space for an emergency vehicle to pass using this lane.

If the driver of the Tesla was not able to merge into the traffic,
he could have possibly be able to continue driving using the emergency lane
until it would have been safe to merge into the traffic on the right lane.

- I so I wonder if he got back ended by another car and pushed away, before hitting the separation wall?

 

[SMAlset]

Not rear ended since the back of the Tesla showed no damage. See TEG's photo which he took as he passed the accident scene.

Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)

 

[bonnie]

After watching the ABC 7 report, it looks like the “navigational” issue was the Autopilot complaint according to the family. I am guessing the owner may have used both terms when complaining, and the service advisor didn’t write the whole complaint out on the service ticket.

Screenshots of the text from the family to the news reporter:

View attachment 290240 View attachment 290241 View attachment 290242 View attachment 290243

All this is further evidence to support he wouldn't have been using AP there (or would have been hyper vigilant), given that he didn't trust it. He was a software engineer (so knew technology) & from what his family reports, did not trust AP in that area.

I'm looking forward to hearing results of the investigation.

 

[bonnie]

Not rear ended since the back of the Tesla showed no damage. See TEG's photo which he took as he passed the accident scene.

Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)

Last week I was rear ended on I84 in Portland. This was the damage (the other car fared much worse). I don't think we can rule out being rear ended just because we can't see damage. (Nor can we rule it in.)

 

[MXWing]

All this is further evidence to support he wouldn't have been using AP there (or would have been hyper vigilant), given that he didn't trust it. He was a software engineer (so knew technology) & from what his family reports, did not trust AP in that area.

I'm looking forward to hearing results of the investigation.

Rational, but doesn't fit the narrative if someone wants to make some $ in a lawsuit.

Also why would you

1 - Knowingly play Russian roulette to the point of finding there were 3 bullets in a 10 round cylinder.

2 - To use an Apple example - take your iPhone to the "Genius" Bar and ask them to fix an iOS bug that bothered you but also affected every single other iPhone as well. What exactly is the Genius bar kid and the Tesla service tech going to be able to do about software bugs?

I don't want to speak ill of the dead but we have to call a spade a spade - Walter is 100% responsible for what happened.

 

[mongo]

Last week I was rear ended on I84 in Portland. This was the damage (the other car fared much worse). I don't think we can rule out being rear ended just because we can't see damage. (Nor can we rule it in.)


View attachment 290248

@NeverFollow
CHP report called out two other cars involved (both on 101 after Tesla deflected off barrier).

 

[miimura]

I don't want to speak ill of the dead but we have to call a spade a spade - Walter is 100% responsible for what happened.

I agree that the driver is responsible for the collision, but CalTrans' failure to restore the barrier to the proper energy absorbing condition definitely contributed to the severity of his injuries. IMHO, it probably would not have been a fatal collision if the barrier had been restored after the prior collision.

 

[Bluhorizan]

A tragic accident. My condolences to the deceased family and friends. Regarding fire, wondering if 100D vs 90D battery pack is more vulnerable to penetration since it appears to have one group in front of the enclosed frame of the main battery pack?

 

[buttershrimp]

You can most certainly blame AP (assuming it was on in this crash). The driver should be alert at all times with eyes on the road, but when you are given the impression your car car drive by itself for stretches (Who would ever get that impression after activating a feature called "Autopilot"? ) you are likely more prone to let your attention wander compared to someone driving manually. About 5 seconds of distraction was probably all that was needed to allow this crash to happen.

Plenty of blame to pass around (including Caltrans, the driver), but to simply dismiss Tesla has any responsibility because no one "should" ever get in an accident with AP is pretty silly.

I blame the model T, had it not been invented this never would have happened

 

[mongo]

A tragic accident. My condolences to the deceased family and friends. Regarding fire, wondering if 100D vs 90D battery pack is more vulnerable to penetration since it appears to have one group in front of the enclosed frame of the main battery pack?

Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)

Top module was damaged. Pack was so bent on the front that the bottom front module may also be damaged. Normally, a collision would not not reach the pack in this way. High level of penetration due to barrier structure (two vertical sides and 3 cross bars).
Fire was not significant until after the driver was removed.

 

[Swampgator]

Rational, but doesn't fit the narrative if someone wants to make some $ in a lawsuit.

Also why would you

1 - Knowingly play Russian roulette to the point of finding there were 3 bullets in a 10 round cylinder.

2 - To use an Apple example - take your iPhone to the "Genius" Bar and ask them to fix an iOS bug that bothered you but also affected every single other iPhone as well. What exactly is the Genius bar kid and the Tesla service tech going to be able to do about software bugs?

I don't want to speak ill of the dead but we have to call a spade a spade - Walter is 100% responsible for what happened.

We really don't know enough to be able to state Walter was at fault. Someone could have nudged him into the barrier by tapping his right rear bumper, which would send him into the barrier at the correct angle to hit and flip landing exactly where he did. Not likely but possible. Like a pit maneuver.

 

[MXWing]

I agree that the driver is responsible for the collision, but CalTrans' failure to restore the barrier to the proper energy absorbing condition definitely contributed to the severity of his injuries. IMHO, it probably would not have been a fatal collision if the barrier had been restored after the prior collision.

This is new info coming out that I did not hear about. It sounds like Walter would still be alive if the barrier was repaired to the same state as it was before the Prius hit it.

If someone is getting sued here, it's Caltrans.

Whether the suit succeeds or not, I think will come down to where responsibility lies for not fixing a barrier "in case" someone hits it and unfortunately they did. Law is not my area.

 

[mongo]

This is new info coming out that I did not hear about. It sounds like Walter would still be alive if the barrier was repaired to the same state as it was before the Prius hit it.

If someone is getting sued here, it's Caltrans.

Whether the suit succeeds or not, I think will come down to where responsibility lies for not fixing a barrier "in case" someone hits it and unfortunately they did. Law is not my area.

Pic of collapsed barrier from that morning, post #222:
Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)

 

[MXWing]

We really don't know enough to be able to state Walter was at fault. Someone could have nudged him into the barrier by tapping his right rear bumper, which would send him into the barrier at the correct angle to hit and flip landing exactly where he did. Not likely but possible. Like a pit maneuver.

Yes.

I am sorry for Walter's family absolutely.

Tesla should have been left out of this unfortunate tragedy.

Want to know what the biggest completely frieken bullshat clusterfrak of this whole thing is?

Winners:
A civil suit by Walter's estate. Though hard to quantify as a win when you lost a potential husband, father, son, brother, etc
Those against Tesla's mission.

Losers:
California Tax Payers. How else is those Caltrans bums funded?
Tesla Inc.
Tesla Owners
Tesla Shareholders
Autonomous Driving
Walter Huang and his family