Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)

[PhantomX]

I am curious if one of the future AP updates should be a more aggressive monitoring and reminder of hands on wheels? I am thinking vibration feedbacks like the lane departure warning (forgot the exact name since we don't have the X anymore), and also a loud audible warning similar to when the car first starts. Also, I think the frequency should be measured in seconds, rather than minutes. These updates shouldn't bother any existing AP drivers that are following the rules, but should help force those who like to drive hands off put their hands back on the steering wheel.

I do also wonder if future steering wheel needs some kind of touch sensor so there are less chance of fooling the torque sensor.

 

[mongo]

As a FYI, You will want to look up lane splitting. It's not legal in your state so you may not have encountered it. It's not the same as lane sharing.

If a lane splitting motorcycle is going up on my right, my "assumption" is Tesla moves over to the left if the left is clear.

If it's not, it holds position. I'm not testing it though. Autosteer goes off for me in this scenario.

Had a coworker from Cali, so I'm slightly familiar with lane splitting

I like that idea !!!! and we sort of do this now with cars, during traffic. It's a very much appreciated courtesy!

Was a side contemplation of cyclists messing with FSD vehicles, not one to take seriously!

 

[Doug_G]

IMHO the steering torque sensor doesn't really work. You can have your hands continuously on the wheel and still get multiple warnings. You eventually learn to continuously provide a little torque to the wheel. But that is still absolutely no indication of whether you are paying attention or not.

The problem of driver inattention isn't just an autopilot issue. In our province distracted driving deaths are now greater than drunk driving deaths. People are on their damned phones all the time.

Until we have a technology that can continuously monitor driver attention, or completely replace the driver with automation, this problem will be ongoing. Autopilot or not.

 

[bro1999]

So when Chevy Bolt Lane Keep Assist fails to assist you in keeping you in the lane and car falls of a cliff -

Who's fault was it?

It's the driver's fault, because LKA is a safety ASSIST feature (I mean it has assist in the friggin name). It's not advertised as being any kind of (semi) autonomous driving feature that can steer you down the road all by itself like AP; it's advertised as a safety feature. There is no hint by GM that LKA should ever be actively relied on to keep you in the lane as some kind of self driving feature. There will never be a situation where you will go "Geez, LKA F'ed up good! It didn't work like I expected it to when I looked down to send a text mesage!", because there is no point in time you should ever rely on LKA to work. The whole point of LKA is to alert you when your attention drifts for whatever reason. So if you drive off a cliff because LKA didn't keep you in your lane, that's 100% the driver's fault.

tl;dr version: Autopilot is deceptively advertised; LKA (might as well mention SuperCruise to) is properly advertised.

 

[mongo]

IMHO the steering torque sensor doesn't really work. You can have your hands continuously on the wheel and still get multiple warnings. You eventually learn to continuously provide a little torque to the wheel.

Are you saying it works (in terms of sensing when you do apply torque), but isn't effective (in that it doesn't detected your present but non-torquey hands)?

 

[Ketchups]

Was a side contemplation of cyclists messing with FSD vehicles, not one to take seriously!

one can always dream

 

[aznt1217]

You are fatigued because of all the attention, less attention less fatigue

When driving your attention and energy get channeled to your hands, eyes, ears, and feet.
Autopilot alleviates a bunch of these. Instead you can only focus on the visuals and rest your hands. It's not constant it's intermittent.

 

[buttershrimp]

I propose an autopilot kegel muscle sensor, one most have sufficient perineal muscle tone to enable autopilot.

 

[Rumi11]

That looks terrible.

On a related note, who carries a fire extinguisher? I've always had extinguishers in my ICE vehicles but assumed it wasn't need for a non-petrol vehicle.

Wow! I never even thought about carrying a fire extinguisher, but what a great idea!

 

[Rumi11]

A hand-held fire extinguisher isn't likely to do anything of consequence to a Tesla battery pack fire.

So fire extinguishers don't work on battery pack fires?

 

[AudubonB]

No - not with any efficacy.
First, you need a WATER extinguisher, and second you need a very, very large amount of water. I've not a specific amount but I'm guessing somewhere on the order of 250-500 gallons.

 

[mongo]

So fire extinguishers don't work on battery pack fires?

Not for very long. The cells are self heating and can self-dry and reignite (until fully discharged). So continuous quenching is needed v.s. smothering/ extinguishing like a petroleum fire.

Firefighting info:

A 1 3/4-inch handline can flow up to 325 gpm using one firefighter with a 1 1/4-inch smooth bore tip or a fog nozzle. 20. A 2-inch handline can flow up to 400 gpm using two firefighters with high- pressure hose and a 1 1/2-inch tip at 50 psi NP.

 

[GatorGuy]

@bhzmark What exactly do you disagree with?

 

[bhzmark]

@bhzmark What exactly do you disagree with?

Wikipedia article isn't a credible source for unsourced statements in a wiki article.

What is the source that lidar is currently used in any OEM passeger car?

 

[smorgasbord]

Just to correct, that was NOT the same location. It did happen on 101 at a left lane flyover to 85 but way south of the Mt. View location and in south San Jose.

Thanks for the correction.

Has that intersection been brought up to compliance?

 

[TEG]

Thanks for the correction.
Has that intersection been brought up to compliance?

I don't know how you would define "compliance", but it looks like they repainted all the lane markings there, and went back to using barrels:

Again, this is a different 101/85 interchange. Down in San Jose where they rejoin together at the south end of 85.


It looks like the separator line for the "gone area" is black+yellow instead of a worn down white line.

But they still don't have any chevrons or plastic poles in the gore area to make it more obvious that nobody should drive there.

Maybe they want a whole lane there with no plasic poles so that the maintenance trucks can easily park there when they need to do repairs?


Also, some people are against using barrels because:
#1: They make a real mess when someone runs into them.
#2: They are harder (and more expensive) for Caltrans to replace than it is to reset a Smart Cushion.

I don't know anything about the relative driver safety between the different choices, but I will go out on a limb and say that I think the barrels are a lot safer than an already impacted / damaged Smart Cushion. They are also easier to see. They also seem far less likely to cause damage to a battery pack.

I think the lane markings and crash attenuator that were there before the bus crash were a lot harder to see.

It looks like that exit sign on the wall is no longer there. Maybe the bus tore it off and they never replaced it.

@smorgasbord ^^^

 

[McRat]

...
My point with Lane Keep Assist is its touted as a safety feature that tries to keep you in your lane if you drift. ...

LKA on GMs and many other cars:

If you drift to a line, it first warns you. Sound, seat vibration, dash/HUD light depending on system.
Then if you start to cross the line, it makes a minor correction in the opposite direction.
It does not center you in a lane. It warns you before you sideswipe anything, and gives a small safety correction.
Turn signals disable the system or it can be turned off completely.
It is probably more intended to alert drivers that they are nodding off behind the wheel.
If it corrects too many times, it tells you to keep your hands on the wheel. It does not sense your hands though.

First generation was called LDW? Lane departure warning. It did not countersteer, just gave warnings.

No idea whether LKA or LDW would have prevented the accident. The problem is, if you naturally weave because you are playing with your phone, you will end up ignoring the warning given enough time.

 

[JTseng]

You mis-attributed @marcopone 's post to @adjacent

I am afraid the point is that Tesla Autopilot IS NOT SAFE

I had an accident January of this year.
Model S P90DL AP1
I was in motorway’s left lane and suddenly a truck went in my lane.
The system did not react at all!
Because of the very normal road conditions, normal speed, straight road, no rain I was relaxed and my intervention has been slower than normal.
I went into the truck and almost destroyed th front part of my Tesla.

Today I am not driving a Tesla anymore and I am writing this few words because I feel right to take part to this discussion.

The point is : ATTENTION

When AP is engaged every human being attention level will be lower than when you drive yourself!
I thougth much to what happened me and this point is very clear to me.
No way that attention level and reaction time can be equal to self driving!

So, until Tesla’s AP will improve to a reasonable safety functioning - and there is much work still to do - its use should be restricted much more than today.

Best Regards
Marco Merati

Very nice of you to share your experience here. I wonder if you traveling speed was much greater than the truck as you approaching the impact location? The lesson to learn here (for me) is to either slowdown or be ready when passing an adjacent vehicle at higher speed. The other question for Tesla's engineer is the current state of AP's collision avoidance capability?

 

[AWDtsla]

IMHO the steering torque sensor doesn't really work. You can have your hands continuously on the wheel and still get multiple warnings. You eventually learn to continuously provide a little torque to the wheel. But that is still absolutely no indication of whether you are paying attention or not.

My take it on it worse than that. As a GOOD driver, you are always using minimum inputs to steering, affecting stability, consumption, and wear. The current algo forces you to apply torque that you shouldn't need to, just to make the nag go away.

Liability, it's all about liability.

 

[GatorGuy]

Wikipedia article isn't a credible source for unsourced statements in a wiki article.

What is the source that lidar is currently used in any OEM passeger car?

Versus your completely unsubstantiated statement?

Google works just as well for you as anyone.

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