Model X Crash on US-101 (Mountain View, CA)

[TEG]

I think they had responded with like "we were busy in another part of the state due to a storm."

I am sure that there are employees that feel terrible that they can't reset these things quickly enough (before the next crash.)
Some people would point to insufficient budget to properly maintain all the safety equipment.

Perhaps they need to come up with some other type of barrier that "self resets" since things aren't working out as intended.

The front of the crash cushion is designed to skewer the vehicle so it holds it and prevents it from bouncing into traffic.
If the compression mechanism is already spent then it effectively becomes the tip of spear that the vehicle ran into.

 

[FlatSix911]

The problem is not the weather or budget... it is the California Department of Transportation negligence.

 

[nuts]

The problem is not the weather or budget... it is the California Department of Transportation negligence.

How is this negligence of the DOT?

 

[FlatSix911]

How is this negligence of the DOT?

They did not reset the crash cushion barrier in a timely manner... simple really.

 

[mattack4000]

Or the guy can simply look up at the road

 

[TEG]

Or the guy can simply look up at the road

Crash cushions are put in places like that because they are hard to see and it is known that many people will mistakenly crash in that spot over time. It is also such a fine pointed solid tip of a dividing wall that it is really really dangerous to hit that at speed without something (other than the car) to absorb all that energy.

You can place all the blame on the driver if you like, but I think it is an unreasonable assumption that every driver can see well enough and be paying close enough attention all the time they happen to drive by a location like that. By the way, he was driving into the morning sun (making it hard to see the road in general), the lane markings were very much worn down, and I think the warning sign on the gore point was also torn away from a previous crash there.
Reminder: other people died hitting that same gore point before.

 

[mattack4000]

I drive by the same spot everyday, among many other people. It must be a miracle that we are not dead. Matter of fact, I use the autopilot through that section daily.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

I drive by the same spot everyday, among many other people. It must be a miracle that we are not dead. Matter of fact, I use the autopilot through that section daily.

Another person that doesn't get it.

Yes, 99.999% of those that pass through there make it just fine. But when you have several thousand vehicles passing per day, it would be negligent and not up to proper highway safety standards to not have mitigation equipment at such a dangerous location.

Proper highway design has greatly increased safety over decades, and part of that is protective barriers for when things go wrong.

In this case, the energy absorbing device was used previously by someone in a Prius several days or weeks prior to this accident. CalTrans failed to reset the device, something that takes under an hour IIRC, despite having a facility about a mile away from the site. That left that location FAR more dangerous as the safety device then became a spear, making it lethal.

And that is why California taxpayers will be party to an incoming lawsuit, if they aren't already.

This isn't that hard to understand, is it?

 

[SMAlset]

Back in the news with NTSB news. From Washington Post article sounds like he was playing a video game at this stretch of 101 despite knowing the autopilot tendency at that juncture. Also found it interesting that his wife must have told/admitted to investigators that Tesla told him it wasn’t full-self driving yet and that you needed to pay attention and have hands on wheel to take over.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2020/02/11/telsa-running-autopilot-repeatedly-veered-toward-spot-where-apple-engineer-later-crashed-died-federal-investigators-say/

NTSB to release something later this month.


NOTE: Sorry to see the WP article may not be accessible in full due to their subscription request. I was able to read it in full through Apple News if you have that available.

 

[SMAlset]

So far the other news articles I've read this morning are just repeating info that had already come out early on about the 101 Mt. View accident and guess these publications haven't gone through the documents the NTSB released today yet like the Washington Post did (on the iPhone usage and wife's comments about Tesla's telling him about using Autopilot). Haven't looked for those documents yet but guessing on the NTSB website.

The WP article also mentions that the NTSB has also released some documents in the Delray Beach, FL accident with the truck driver that pulled out into the roadway without clearing it and the Model 3 driver who had apparently no choice but to strike the vehicle (from what I've read today). We should keep these accidents separate but wanted to alert members that those documents were also released.


OK, here's the NTSB webpage for today's news on the two Tesla accidents. It mentions where you can read the documents that have been added to the NTSB Docket. To save time if you search by Date and Decending you can read the latest info posted from 2/8/20 and 2/7/20.
NTSB Opens Public Docket for 2 Ongoing Tesla Crash Investigations

Here's the NTSB's 101/Mt. View Docket: Accident ID HWY18FH011 Mode Highway occurred on March 23, 2018 in Mountain View, CA USA Last Modified on February 11, 2020 16:02 Public Released on September 09, 2019 13:09 Total 56 document items

 

[SMAlset]

For anyone interested in how "bug reports" are tracked down at Service, the Tesla service center witness accounts under the Witness Group Chairman's Report are interesting to read. A lot of documents to go through and some are quite lengthy read.

One of the accident scene witness reports is rather graphic (Shane Engelman, motorcyclist).

 

[mattack4000]

Why do cars have no speed governors since every state has a speed limit. The person in control needs to bear responsibility. Your thinking is why our insurance is so high and lawyers make out like a bandit in this country.

Another person that doesn't get it.

Yes, 99.999% of those that pass through there make it just fine. But when you have several thousand vehicles passing per day, it would be negligent and not up to proper highway safety standards to not have mitigation equipment at such a dangerous location.

Proper highway design has greatly increased safety over decades, and part of that is protective barriers for when things go wrong.

In this case, the energy absorbing device was used previously by someone in a Prius several days or weeks prior to this accident. CalTrans failed to reset the device, something that takes under an hour IIRC, despite having a facility about a mile away from the site. That left that location FAR more dangerous as the safety device then became a spear, making it lethal.

And that is why California taxpayers will be party to an incoming lawsuit, if they aren't already.

This isn't that hard to understand, is it?

 

[SMAlset]

If you can't access the WP story or the NYTimes which has it as well, both are subscription based, I did find it on Reuters: Tesla driver in fatal crash had reported problems before with 'Autopilot' feature

The WP article included other info I didn't see in the Reuters story and I haven't been able to read the NYTimes.

The NTSB documents do show the iPhone 8's Apple CrashReporter Logs some of you might like looking through. For me it's kind of like trying to understand Tesla's logs .

 

[FlatSix911]

If you can't access the WP story or the NYTimes which has it as well, both are subscription based, I did find it on Reuters: Tesla driver in fatal crash had reported problems before with 'Autopilot' feature

The WP article included other info I didn't see in the Reuters story and I haven't been able to read the NYTimes.

The NTSB documents do show the iPhone 8's Apple CrashReporter Logs some of you might like looking through. For me it's kind of like trying to understand Tesla's logs .

Mic drop and hold the phone...

During the final 18-minute Autopilot segment of the trip, the system did not detect his hands on the wheel about one-third of the time and the system issued two visual alerts for hands-off driving operation and one auditory alert. The NTSB said Huang had been using an Apple-owned iPhone during his trip and records show evidence of data transmissions.

Logs recovered with Apple’s assistance show a word-building game application “Three Kingdoms” was active during Huang’s fatal trip. The NTSB said “most players have both hands on the phone to support the device and manipulate game actions” but added the log data “does not provide enough information to ascertain whether the Tesla driver was holding the phone or how interactive he was with the game at the time of the crash.”

 

[VikH]

Mic drop and hold the phone...

During the final 18-minute Autopilot segment of the trip, the system did not detect his hands on the wheel about one-third of the time and the system issued two visual alerts for hands-off driving operation and one auditory alert. The NTSB said Huang had been using an Apple-owned iPhone during his trip and records show evidence of data transmissions.

Logs recovered with Apple’s assistance show a word-building game application “Three Kingdoms” was active during Huang’s fatal trip. The NTSB said “most players have both hands on the phone to support the device and manipulate game actions” but added the log data “does not provide enough information to ascertain whether the Tesla driver was holding the phone or how interactive he was with the game at the time of the crash.”

Thanks for posting.

So damn sad. Reading the witness reports - random strangers use fire extinguishers and pulling the guy from the burning car. These people put their life at risk to save this guy so he could play a game on his phone. What a bunch of bullsh!t.

 

[SMAlset]

Thanks for posting.

So damn sad. Reading the witness reports - random strangers use fire extinguishers and pulling the guy from the burning car. These people put their life at risk to save this guy so he could play a game on his phone. What a bunch of bullsh!t.

Not much different though from people texting, reading emails or on phones (without in car connection) or doing other distracting things while driving. The hardest part I have understanding is knowing that section of road had a problem with reading the lane lines, why not be in a different lane using Autopilot or at the very least be paying closer attention as you approach that spot and ready to take over.

 

[dhanson865]

Reminder: other people died hitting that same gore point before.

Just a quick terminology correction:

people die hitting crash barriers (crash barrier or crash attenuator or impact attenuator), other types of barriers, or walls, gore points are just a shape on the ground that can't hurt anyone or anything.

in this case the crash barrier was called a "smart cushion", though I won't argue if you think that term is a misnomer.

A gore (modern British English: nose), refers to a triangular piece of land. Etymologically it is derived from gār, meaning spear.

Gores on highways are categorized as two types: the theoretical gore and the physical gore. The physical gore is the unpaved area created between the highway mainline and a ramp that merges into or diverges from the mainline.

The theoretical gore is the marked area of pavement resulting from the convergence or divergence of the edge lines of the mainline and ramp. Theoretical gores are commonly marked with transverse lines or chevrons (much as ghost islands) at both entrance and exit ramps. These help drivers entering the highway to estimate how much time they have to match the speed of through traffic, and warn drivers improperly exiting the highway right down the middle of a gore that they are about to run out of road. Gores at exit ramps occasionally feature impact attenuators, especially when there is something solid at the other end of the gore.

 

[TEG]

OK, sure. Hitting the pointy fixed object at the end of the gore point...

 

[TEG]

I drive by the same spot everyday, among many other people. It must be a miracle that we are not dead. Matter of fact, I use the autopilot through that section daily.

Hopefully you weren't "trolling" and trying to bait someone (like me) into an endless debate just for the sake of argument.

When I see people make statements like that it seems naive to me.

Sure, we can't expect society to protect everyone all the time from every possible hazard, but I think we have done the right thing to expect reasonable amounts of safety precautions for the roadways.
Are you someone that is upset that you had to pay extra for seat belts and air bags in your car, because you are "such a great attentive driver" that you would never get in a crash?
Even the best driver in the world could run into a dividing wall in a gore area if something unforeseen, outside of their control, were to happen.
Even if they were paying close attention and looking right at that hazard they could (for instance) blow a tire, break a suspension component, or have a car in the lane beside them turn into them and push them into the barrier.

It just seems prudent to me to have properly functioning "crash cushion" devices in sections of high speed freeways that look basically like this:

 

[banned-66611]

Data shows Tesla owner experienced repeated glitch days before deadly 2018 crash

"On March 23, 2018, a glitch in Tesla's Autopilot technology contributed to the death of Walter Huang in Mountain View, California. As Huang's Model X approached a left exit on US Highway 101, the software apparently got the lane lines mixed up. The car steered to the left, putting itself in the space between the diverging lanes. Seconds later, it crashed into a concrete lane divider at 70 miles per hour. Huang was taken to the hospital but died soon afterward."

It seems that he was in the habit of playing games on his phone during his commute, another sign that the nagging isn't working. He had experienced this glitch before but this time failed to correct it.

The government also gets some blame for not replacing the crash attenuator fast enough.