Model X Side Mirrors

[Benz]

How much time will NHTSA still need to approve/allow side view camera's (instead of side view mirrors)?

Tesla Motors, and a bunch of other car manufacturers, collectively applied/requested that (in 2013?).

 

[chickensevil]

How much time will NHTSA still need to approve/allow side view camera's (instead of side view mirrors)?

Tesla Motors, and a bunch of other car manufacturers, collectively applied/requested that (in 2013?).

It is the government, so likely 1 year after it would have been the most useful... Someone will instead come up with another solution, and then the government will mandate it required even though it is already outdated by that point. Or in the case of the internet and GOSIP it would be 10 years too late and would be completely outdated...

OSI Protocol Suite vs. GOSIP

 

[ericspecullaas]

also keep this in mind a mirror is much more simple than a camera the advantages of a camera is that it can see in the dark better and it can see things we cant like heat spots like something standing in the road. I really dont see them changing it any time soon and for good reason a $2 piece of glass is cheaper and easier to make then a camera.

 

[Nubo]

also keep this in mind a mirror is much more simple than a camera the advantages of a camera is that it can see in the dark better and it can see things we cant like heat spots like something standing in the road. I really dont see them changing it any time soon and for good reason a $2 piece of glass is cheaper and easier to make then a camera.

The camera, in conjunction with digital signal processing, can provide vastly better visual, spatial, and collision-avoidance information. It allows the display to move closer to the center so that the driver doesn't have to take their eyes so far away from the road ahead. $2 sounds nice and is the way we've always done it. But, how much does an accident cost? How much does the wasted energy cost due to aerodynamic drag?

 

[ElSupreme]

The camera, in conjunction with digital signal processing, can provide vastly better visual, spatial, and collision-avoidance information. It allows the display to move closer to the center so that the driver doesn't have to take their eyes so far away from the road ahead. $2 sounds nice and is the way we've always done it. But, how much does an accident cost? How much does the wasted energy cost due to aerodynamic drag?

I bring this up every now and then. Mirrors are 2-way devices. You can see behind you, and people can see you in your seat. This allows people outside the vehicle to tell if you are paying attention or not. I doubt that this ability is even considered when people talk about changing regulations. But a camera does not provide that same ability.

I'm on the fence about whether or not rear cameras are better than mirrors. You definitely get better field of view, and can have computer assists, and most likely better low light visibility; coupled with the improved aero and layout ergonomics. But you have more distortion, worse point of reference, less acuity, and the two-way viewing that mirrors provide.

 

[JRP3]

I bring this up every now and then. Mirrors are 2-way devices. You can see behind you, and people can see you in your seat.

I'm not sure I've ever consciously seen someone's face in their side mirrors.

 

[bonnie]

I bring this up every now and then. Mirrors are 2-way devices. You can see behind you, and people can see you in your seat. This allows people outside the vehicle to tell if you are paying attention or not. I doubt that this ability is even considered when people talk about changing regulations. But a camera does not provide that same ability.

Good point and one I admit I had not considered. As a Roadster driver, I am constantly looking to see who actually sees me - including their side view mirrors. If I don't see them look at me, my assumption is they did not see me (and sometimes I assume they didn't see me anyway, just to be safe).

I've mentioned this before on the forum as part of Roadster Defensive Driving, so not just in response to your post ...

I want cameras. But I'll have to think about this.

 

[chickensevil]

See I always assume they don't see me regardless. The most stressful lane change is into a middle lane when someone else is on the other side. I am always afraid they are going to feel like merging at exactly the same time... which has happened to me a couple times which might be why I am so afraid of it... but the risk here is that you merge into each other and I have had a couple near misses. Usually the angling is too far off to even try to use their mirror to see if they are paying attention.

If I am beside them in a lane I feel so much safer, because at least then, one the assumption that they aren't paying any attention I am always on the look out for them to just try to merge into me (signal or not) and then just hit the breaks. Unless you are a terrible driver you usually have enough time to slow down before they would actually hit you.

Maybe I am a small minority, and I am doing it wrong... but I am already looking at so many things when trying to drive, paying attention to THEIR mirrors is not something I even consider.

 

[bonnie]

I'm not talking about my lane changes. I'm talking about their lane changes. Sit in a Roadster for an afternoon and you'll understand. You're small, you're staring at their exhaust pipe, and 9/10, people start to change lanes without realizing you're right next to them. If they try to merge into me, sure I could hit the brakes. Have you seen traffic here? I have cars right on my tail and either side of me. I'll be rear ended AND sideswiped. Bah.

I always watch to make sure they've noticed me.

 

[chickensevil]

I'm not talking about my lane changes. I'm talking about their lane changes. Sit in a Roadster for an afternoon and you'll understand. You're small, you're staring at their exhaust pipe, and 9/10, people start to change lanes without realizing you're right next to them. If they try to merge into me, sure I could hit the brakes. Have you seen traffic here? I have cars right on my tail and either side of me. I'll be rear ended AND sideswiped. Bah.

I always watch to make sure they've noticed me.

Hard to miss a giant SUV though...

 

[Benz]

I'm not talking about my lane changes. I'm talking about their lane changes. Sit in a Roadster for an afternoon and you'll understand. You're small, you're staring at their exhaust pipe, and 9/10, people start to change lanes without realizing you're right next to them. If they try to merge into me, sure I could hit the brakes. Have you seen traffic here? I have cars right on my tail and either side of me. I'll be rear ended AND sideswiped. Bah.

I always watch to make sure they've noticed me.

You would not have the same feeling if you would be driving a Tesla Model X, right?

 

[Nubo]

I bring this up every now and then. Mirrors are 2-way devices. You can see behind you, and people can see you in your seat. This allows people outside the vehicle to tell if you are paying attention or not. I doubt that this ability is even considered when people talk about changing regulations. But a camera does not provide that same ability.

I see your point. As a bicyclist, I do find myself using motorist's side-views to get some indication of what they're up to. In particular, cyclists are at high risk of being "doored" when people swing open the door of a parked car. Road planners often place bicycle lanes within the "door zone", and motorists are scanning for CARS. The sight of a bicyclist often passes right through their mental filters as the door swings wide...

 

[bonnie]

I'm not talking about my lane changes. I'm talking about their lane changes. Sit in a Roadster for an afternoon and you'll understand. You're small, you're staring at their exhaust pipe, and 9/10, people start to change lanes without realizing you're right next to them. If they try to merge into me, sure I could hit the brakes. Have you seen traffic here? I have cars right on my tail and either side of me. I'll be rear ended AND sideswiped. Bah.

I always watch to make sure they've noticed me.

Hard to miss a giant SUV though...

You would not have the same feeling if you would be driving a Tesla Model X, right?

True - but the behavior from when I drive my Roadster remains when I drive my Jeep. Or any other vehicle. The Roadster has definitely improved my defensive driving, out of necessity.

 

[aronth5]

Many good points in this thread. One that doesn't get mentioned enough is how many people rely entirely too much on mirrors. Whenever I see someone looking only at their mirrors I assume they may not see me and drive more defensively. To the extent cameras can help with blind spots I'm all for them but IMO it is a lot more difficult to design the UI for cameras then people think.

 

[chickensevil]

From my own personal driving habits I am always trying to scan around me constantly checking mirrors to keep a tab on those around me. A lot of this is for if I male a lane change I can do so without necessarily needing a visual check over the shoulder because I already know the car is there and should wait. I also use my rear view mirror just as much to keep tabs on everything.

However in most cases I will still do a quick visual check in heavy traffic or whatever just in case. But I say all that to say that just because someone is scanning just the mirrors doesn't mean they don't know you are there.

From that perspective of driving I can picture cameras sticking the screens in an easier to keep tabs on location which is why it seems like a welcome change to me.

I also try to be really defensive on the road watching out for others... Mostly because I don't want anything to happen to my baby

 

[fengshui]

In another thread about the width of the car, it was reported that the MX will have mirrors:
Model X width - Page 3

 

[GabrielB]

I get the argument about a camera not being a "two way" device, and as a past motorcycle rider and small sports car driver (I always tell my kids and others to check their blind spots for a motorcycle - a car your mind will pick up anyway while looking for a bike), I fully understand not being seen and looking for the driver (or truck driver) in their side view mirror. However, the idea of the side-view camera system (and autonomous driving) is that the system is ALWAYS watching, and will alert you that someone or something is there.
My Corvette had a Head-Up-Display, and it was great to be able to see critical info while watching the road ahead. "I imagine" that a side view camera system would have displays on either side of the wheel (HUD?) and an alert would flash on those displays if you were to activate your turn signal or try to change lanes into something.

Another thing, is that when you check your mirrors you usually are glancing for a moment - a snap shot - the camera is always looking, and who knows, maybe the system could estimate the rate of speed of whatever is coming up from behind. Now the car's attention span is significantly better than the typical driver. A few cars already have frontal crash avoidance/brake systems. Perhaps we might see something new soon as well.

 

[chickensevil]

That a great point, at the very least it would combine with blind spot detection to alert you about the issue and you can get a much wider angle from a camera than you can from a mirror both up and down and left and right. You will also not need to adjust the angle anymore since they will be fixed position, so they can point the cameras in exactly the most optimal position to pick up whatever you need to making this a very safe car. And, should they combine them with the mobileye type technology, but for the side cameras, and also the rear camera you could almost get a full 360 around the car to support the autonomous driving.

 

[Nubo]

One thing that occurred to me is that drivers with far-sightedness or presbyopia may find themselves unexpectedly at a disadvantage. With a display at dash distance, one may need glasses to see clearly things that are seen easily in a mirror without glasses. Between the lack of tactile feedback (flat panel vs knobs), and LCD mirror displays, I'm definitely going to need glasses to drive this vehicle effectively.

 

[EchoDelta]

One thing that occurred to me is that drivers with far-sightedness or presbyopia may find themselves unexpectedly at a disadvantage. With a display at dash distance, one may need glasses to see clearly things that are seen easily in a mirror without glasses. Between the lack of tactile feedback (flat panel vs knobs), and LCD mirror displays, I'm definitely going to need glasses to drive this vehicle effectively.

Yup! True!

Fortunately for me this is not the case; but I'm also the sort that looks at what people do through their mirrors.


I'd like it to be a best of both worlds- mirrors and cameras.
Mirrors unfolded at low speed and urban settings, giving me all the advantages they have and reliability - but can be folded when I'm quasi alone on highways where aero drag sucks the most
Cameras *always on* (on the base stalk of the mirror?) doing image processing to alert of pedestrians, busy lanes, incomings, etc, integrated into the user experience depending on my actions (as overview views, flashing colored lights, beeps, etc) and optionally (on demand , or on alert) as a "live view straight from the camera" (ideally with superposed image processing - people silhouette highlight, obstacle highlight, distance overlays).