Multi-Rider Doubles MPG: How would you make the 3 shell attract extra riders?

[Skotty]

In my experience, the overwhelming reason why people don't car pool more is simply because everyone is coming from wildly different places on wildly different schedules. There is really no way to fix that. You can make smaller more efficient cars for the lower number of occupants, but that is very unpopular in the United States.

There's some value to the idea of facing seats towards each other (if it were somehow possible), but I have to think at least some women wouldn't like the idea. Skirts and dresses. Maybe if there was a table inbetween.

 

[22522]

I have yet to be able to take anything from @22522 seriously...Gotta be some kinda troll but I just don't understand the joke

It is probably thoroughness. The original post presents data from a National Lab and data on human factors from Henry Dreyfuss Associates. The Ford Model T Experience Curve had Boston Consulting Group written all over it.

I also have a tendency to take things at face value. Totally miss the public face, private face stuff.

If you really care about carbon footprint you find a way to attract 3 or more people to a single vehicle. So this thread is the most carbon footprint relevant thread on this forum. It is better if the vehicle is efficient. I don't see anything better than a model 3 any time soon.

 

[cronosx]

I don't think he is joking, is just speculating, just not about the model 3 but in general what could be done to lower the db

 

[JeffK]

I think a simpler answer to this question and the thread is... you can't or shouldn't worry about it too much.

Road noise from the tires, noise from other cars, noise from the HVAC, etc adds up, plus a normal conversation is 60-80 dB anyway. Even if you had a soundproof box that dampened all vibrational noise from the tires you'd be adding weight to the car and cause a potentially unsafe environment where you cannot hear a siren. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a super quiet car.

In addition not everyone keeps perfect hearing as they age so you're going to need to speak up anyway.

Let's look at a simple statistic posted by in the original post. The average number of people in a car is 1.6. This means that for the most part there is one, maybe two people in the car at any given time on average. So, why focus on a conversation between the front and back seats when all you really need is ability to converse between the two front seats...

 

[22522]

The average number of people in a car is 1.6. This means that for the most part there is one, maybe two people in the car at any given time on average...

The 1.6 could be a chicken and an egg problem.

There are two kinds of data here. Dreyfuss data (look him up) and Stuff we say data. 53 dB is Dreyfuss data.

 

[Alketi]

Two-two-five-two-two, can you explain, why amongst all the possible variables such as common destination/similar starting location/similar hours/willingness to be together in close quarters, that you believe interior cabin noise is the most important factor that determines the rate of ride sharing?

 

[22522]

Two-two-five-two-two, can you explain, why amongst all the possible variables such as common destination/similar starting location/similar hours/willingness to be together in close quarters, that you believe interior cabin noise is the most important factor that determines the rate of ride sharing?

Sure. If you ran an experiment and held constant: 1) destination, 2)starting location, 3) hours, and 4) participants/willingness to be in close quarters, then looked at the effect of other parameters on participation that would be a start.

As background I had used a 2009 Honda Fit Sport as the prototype Minimum Viable Product. Replaced it with a 2012 base Honda Fit with leather seats and larger diameter tires to eliminate harsh buzzy ride and dog hair issues. Added rear axle with roll bar from Sport to eliminate body roll. Added lots of dynamat. I was all set. That set of folks relocated.

Then I looked for a candidate, discovering a Ford Taurus with a red sideswipe exiting at my exit. Saw this same car in the lot at work. Established contact with all of the listed parameters held constant. This chart shows 40% participation going to 10% then to 90%. All with the parameters you mentioned held constant! (Quality of the audible playlist also held constant.)

The discovery is that the car matters. The car is the only thing that was changing!

The quality of the media delivery in the car matters. The quality of the conversation is influenced by background noise. That matters. Vehicle safety and status matters (Tesla has that covered). Here is a summary chart showing that ride sharing resulted in an over 2x capital investment in transportation. There is a very real audience/parlor expense effect.

This works with 2 people. When we add a third there is a noise barrier that isolates. Maybe learned helplessness for the rider. They get less value, and participate less. A key step to delivering value is an environment that encourages [normal voice] communication. Background Noise Eliminates normal voice communication.

I hope this answers the question. The front passengers are experiencing noise levels approaching the normal voice threshold only in the luxury cars that delivered 90% participation.

 

[22522]

As additional information, Honda and BMW have supplied several different loaner vehicles including a non luxury Chevy Impala and others. Participation tracks with noise level more than with luxury. Lower background noise = better participation. There seems to be a noise wall between front and rear passengers in a 2016 Jeep Patriot loaner... There may be active noise cancellation helping the front. It is the highest trim with auto start etc.

 

[deonb]

You can do what you want to the car - the main obstacle to carpooling is that people very seldom simultaneously:

a) Depart from the same origin
b) Travel to the same destination
c) At the same time

And oh, if you do try and shove me in a car every day with 3 chatty coworkers that all face each other - I'll start riding a bike instead. A VW diesel one if they make one.

 

[Garlan Garner]

My ears face forward so ...

Really? I don't see that often.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

With all due respect, let's let them get the car made before going overboard with things that suit our own individual desires. We all have different things that are important to us...that's human nature. We all want to see those things brought to the forefront in everything we consider. What we have to remember, in my humble opinion, is that this is a fledgling car company that is trying to take on the auto juggernauts and finally has a car that most of us think can do just that. Let's let them do just that and bring this product to market in the way they feel is best. Let's face it, nobody here on this forum understands Tesla's competitive marketplace and their role within it better than the folks at Tesla.

Can't wait to see what they give us.

Dan

 

[Garlan Garner]

With all due respect, let's let them get the car made before going overboard with things that suit our own individual desires. We all have different things that are important to us...that's human nature. We all want to see those things brought to the forefront in everything we consider. What we have to remember, in my humble opinion, is that this is a fledgling car company that is trying to take on the auto juggernauts and finally has a car that most of us think can do just that. Let's let them do just that and bring this product to market in the way they feel is best. Let's face it, nobody here on this forum understands Tesla's competitive marketplace and their role within it better than the folks at Tesla.

Can't wait to see what they give us.

Dan

Then what do we do for 18 months? I could have had 2 kids by the time this car gets delivered. Lets speculate until we puke.....LOL

 

[kzod]

Two-two-five-two-two, can you explain, why amongst all the possible variables such as common destination/similar starting location/similar hours/willingness to be together in close quarters, that you believe interior cabin noise is the most important factor that determines the rate of ride sharing?

+1/ I agree with the other poster. This is either a joke or a sign or a singularly (mis)focused brain. tuto's response is to have an experiment that neglects all of the most important criteria. If my wife and I lived in the same house (oh yeah we do) and are going to the same place we WILL in fact take the same car. Sometimes we'll even go in my convertible with the roof and windows down. Not so easy to speak above that amount of noise but we manage. Never once has she said that it's too loud inb my car and decided to meet me where we are going in her car.
So your posts come down to imaginary Utopian dreams. The problem is hat most people beside wanting a big luxurious car, also want a BIG luxurious house with a big green lawn. This leads to people living farther and farther from where they work. The odds tthat you and your co-workers all live down the block from each other is extremely small. The original city concept of a place where people can live work and shop all within their community was the best solution to today's troubles, but is outdated because nobody else wants that.

 

[22522]

You can do what you want to the car - the main obstacle to carpooling is that people very seldom simultaneously:

a) Depart from the same origin
b) Travel to the same destination
c) At the same time

And oh, if you do try and shove me in a car every day with 3 chatty coworkers that all face each other - I'll start riding a bike instead. A VW diesel one if they make one.

If the commute does not make your work (career) and home life markedly better you should not do it. A car with planned content can improve lives in many dimensions. We are big fans of Musk/SpaceX and Tesla. With 500,000 people charging at home there 10 million people hours per year spent pluging in each year (unless Tesla has already solved this).

Our morning commute focused on finding a way to make that charging hands free, apartment safe and no clutter at 5 to 10% better efficiency than inductive chargers. [up to 10 kW 94% efficient from input/wall to the battery bus at lower price than inductive chargers]. That is like getting 5-10% more miles per gallon than provided by other low clutter inductive chargers.

Focused teams can make a difference.

 

[22522]

My ears face forward so if I was in a rear seat facing backwards I don't know that I'd actually hear the front seat better. Second, what if I'm driving children who should be seen and not heard. Won't they be a distraction to the driver who should be better focused on the road?

I'd assume for even smaller children rear facing car seats would need to face forward in the seat while still facing the rear of the car.

How do people complain about the driver's poor driving skills from the backseat if they can't see the road?

With rear facing seats and the acceleration of a Tesla, won't the rear passengers be launched uncomfortably against the seat belt?

If conversations are of such great concern, can you achieve this more inexpensively with microphones in the front that output to the rear speakers and similarly in the back to the front?

Sun visors with acoustically reflective back sides might do what you suggest at lower cost.

Will prototype and see if they help.

 

[AustinPowers]

I just can't wrap my head round what you are trying to say. Most of it sounds like incoherent thought patterns to me, sorry. Kind of like some genius (or Sheldon Cooper - which at least he would say is the same) mumbling ideas about.

The way I see it, and as quite a few here have said, the main problem with commuting by car is that people don't depart from the same location to go to the same destination.
That is why we have such a great public transport system. Train stations gather all the people from one starting location and "distribute" them to their respective destinations in an effective and quite ecological manner.

And even if I drove to work by car (which I wouldn't dream of doing) and even if I had three or four colleagues with me, I would not want them to talk all the time as it would make me mad. Those stickers on buses "don't talk to the driver while he is driving" are there for a reason you know

 

[22522]

I just can't wrap my head round what you are trying to say.

...
Train stations gather all the people from one starting location and "distribute" them to their respective destinations in an effective and quite ecological manner.

Sure. What I am trying to say is that, in the United States at least, trains are not effective or ecological.

Particularly if you look at how smart phones have reduced the cost of queuing, privately owned model 3s can get the commuting job done with a lower societal and environmental cost - less carbon footprint... Probably without changing the load factor at all. The table that starts this thread uses some 20 something mpg car value. This link gives an S a value twice that in many places. The 3 should be even better.

Is Driving a Tesla Better for the Environment? It Depends... [INFOGRAPHIC] - ValueWalk

If you make it hugely more beneficial to ride to and from work with another human being, the Model 3 is a horizon job better than trains. (Will check math later).

 

[JeffK]

Sure. What I am trying to say is that, in the United States at least, trains are not effective or ecological.
...
If you make it hugely more beneficial to ride to and from work with another human being, the Model 3 is a horizon job better than trains. (Will check math later).

No math needed, trains don't go to my work, my home, or to the grocery store so they are no good for day to day travel (for me).

Riding to work with another human being poses a great problem for people like me because it infinitely increases the likelihood that I will eventually want to strangle that person. It also dramatically increases my level of stress and is probably not healthy in the long run. Speaking of health, if a statistically greater number of people were commuting together everyday it might also impact how fast disease spreads in world.

If it was a close friend then that's another story... although I don't have friends, so I'm just guessing.

 

[22522]

No math needed, trains don't go to my work, my home, or to the grocery store so they are no good for day to day travel (for me).

Have you tried riding the bike to the store with a trailer (Bob)?

 

[JeffK]

Have you tried riding the bike to the store with a trailer (Bob)?

The roads around me are not 100% safe for bicycles, especially in the winter.