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MX crash on I-101 2018/03/23 (out of General)

anticitizen13.7

Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
Dec 22, 2012
3,638
5,761
United States
Also: An Update on Last Week’s Accident

In the moments before the collision, which occurred at 9:27 a.m. on Friday, March 23rd, Autopilot was engaged with the adaptive cruise control follow-distance set to minimum.​

This omits the full context. Additionally:

The driver had received several visual and one audible hands-on warning earlier in the drive and the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision. The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider with the crushed crash attenuator, but the vehicle logs show that no action was taken.
 

Sudre

Active Member
May 30, 2012
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In the moments before the collision, which occurred at 9:27 a.m. on Friday, March 23rd, Autopilot was engaged with the adaptive cruise control follow-distance set to minimum.

and??? the rest???

"The driver had received several visual and one audible hands-on warning earlier in the drive and the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision"
Obviously this driver was doing something very odd besides driving..... but what does that have to do with GM?
 

zmarty

Member
Jun 25, 2017
220
655
Kirkland, WA
Tesla Blog: An Update on Last Week’s Accident

"In the moments before the collision, which occurred at 9:27 a.m. on Friday, March 23rd, Autopilot was engaged with the adaptive cruise control follow-distance set to minimum. The driver had received several visual and one audible hands-on warning earlier in the drive and the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision. The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider with the crushed crash attenuator, but the vehicle logs show that no action was taken."
 

Sudre

Active Member
May 30, 2012
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6,715
Tesla has confirmed that autopilot was engaged during this weeks crash. I suspect a red day Monday.

Tesla confirmed that the driver had their hands off the wheel for 6 seconds before the car hit the barrier and did absolutely nothing. Tesla is trying to be nice as they should be and I will stop and be nice too.... but think about that for a bit. 5 long seconds... clear view... but nothing.

edit: off not on...
 
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zmarty

Member
Jun 25, 2017
220
655
Kirkland, WA
Tesla confirmed that the driver had their hands on the wheel for 5 seconds before the car hit the barrier and did absolutely nothing. Tesla is trying to be nice as they should be and I will stop and be nice too.... but think about that for a bit. 5 long seconds... but nothing.

That's not what they confirmed: "The driver had received several visual and one audible hands-on warning earlier in the drive and the driver’s hands were not detected on the wheel for six seconds prior to the collision. The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider with the crushed crash attenuator, but the vehicle logs show that no action was taken."
 
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dandurston

Member
Jul 16, 2015
406
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Victoria, BC, Canada
From my reading of Tesla's blog on the accident, there were no warnings for the driver to take back control just prior the accident. The driver got warnings earlier in the drive, but going into the accident, Autopilot was simply on and the driver could have noticed the approaching barrier, but didn't and neither did Autopilot.

I'd be interested to know if Autopilot somehow got confused into thinking that was a lane - where an alert operator would have time to correct, or if those final five seconds were normal driving and then a random swerve.
 

EinSV

Active Member
Feb 6, 2016
4,330
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NorCal
Other parts of the blog post confirm that Tesla cars with AP are saving many lives:

“Over a year ago, our first iteration of Autopilot was found by the U.S. government to reduce crash rates by as much as 40%. Internal data confirms that recent updates to Autopilot have improved system reliability.

In the US, there is one automotive fatality every 86 million miles across all vehicles from all manufacturers. For Tesla, there is one fatality, including known pedestrian fatalities, every 320 million miles in vehicles equipped with Autopilot hardware. If you are driving a Tesla equipped with Autopilot hardware, you are 3.7 times less likely to be involved in a fatal accident.

Tesla Autopilot does not prevent all accidents – such a standard would be impossible – but it makes them much less likely to occur. It unequivocally makes the world safer for the vehicle occupants, pedestrians and cyclists.

No one knows about the accidents that didn’t happen, only the ones that did. The consequences of the public not using Autopilot, because of an inaccurate belief that it is less safe, would be extremely severe. There are about 1.25 million automotive deaths worldwide. If the current safety level of a Tesla vehicle were to be applied, it would mean about 900,000 lives saved per year. We expect the safety level of autonomous cars to be 10 times safer than non-autonomous cars.”

An Update on Last Week’s Accident
 
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Do It

Member
Feb 14, 2018
86
543
WA
An Update on Last Week’s Accident

I wish the update had more information. In previous autopilot related fatalities (Brown in FL and a Chinese diver hitting a stationary truck) the autopilot functioned according to design – it followed the lane correctly but did not react to stationary objects which was by design. However, this time it seemed that autopilot did not follow the lane correctly. Autopilot had navigated this stretch of road tens of thousands times so the failure this time must have been due to some unusual circumstances and I wonder what that might have been.
 
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30seconds

Active Member
Feb 28, 2013
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I doubt that Tesla was sitting on this news. First it is likely material so they would have to get it out. Second, they could have got it out yesterday since the market was closed today.

The bigger issue is why didn’t Autopilot see the barrier
 
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KLC13

Member
Oct 2, 2016
210
897
Toronto
From my reading of Tesla's blog on the accident, there were no warnings for the driver to take back control just prior the accident. The driver got warnings earlier in the drive, but going into the accident, Autopilot was simply on and the driver could have noticed the approaching barrier, but didn't and neither did Autopilot.

I'd be interested to know if Autopilot somehow got confused into thinking that was a lane - where an alert operator would have time to correct, or if those final five seconds were normal driving and then a random swerve.

I agree. As much as I appreciate Tesla, I feel this is a play on words. I would have been a lot more assured if the blog post said 'AP was showing warnings moments prior to the collision' but instead they say AP warnings were shown 'earlier in the drive'.

If AP was not actually showing visual or audible warnings moments prior to the collision, then I'm not sure why providing this 'earlier in the drive' information is relevant to the accident. AP could have shown a warning 5 km before the accident spot but that doesnt help Tesla's case. Also saying that the driver had 5 seconds of no hands on wheels may not help if AP never prompted the driver to put their hands on the wheel in those 5 seconds. Just my thoughts after reading that update.

Edit: However if the intent of the Tesla post was to convey that AP warnings were shown and for full 5 seconds driver didnt respond to the warnings before the accident, then this is a non-issue for the company. If that is the case then the post may have to be re-written to make it clear.
 
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X Yes?

Member
May 5, 2016
424
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San Diego
The bigger issue is why didn’t Autopilot are the barrier[/QUOTE]
Agree with you on this. But think Tesla knew quite quickly the data they are reporting now. They seemed to have reams of info on all the "safe" miles logged on this stretch. Friday, after close of business, is their preferred time for bad news.
 
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sundaymorning

Active Member
Jul 26, 2013
3,464
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Orange County
I agree. As much as I appreciate Tesla, I feel this is a play on words. I would have been a lot more assured if the blog post said 'AP was showing warnings moments prior to the collision' but instead they say AP warnings were shown 'earlier in the drive'.

If AP was not actually showing visual or audible warnings moments prior to the collision, then I'm not sure why providing this 'earlier in the drive' information is relevant to the accident. AP could have shown a warning 5 km before the accident spot but that doesnt help Tesla's case. Also saying that the driver had 5 seconds of no hands on wheels may not help if AP never prompted the driver to put their hands on the wheel in those 5 seconds. Just my thoughts after reading that update.

Edit: However if the intent of the Tesla post was to convey that AP warnings were shown and for full 5 seconds driver didnt respond to the warnings before the accident, then this is a non-issue for the company. If that is the case then the post may have to be re-written to make it clear.

When I use AP, my hands are always on the wheel. When the car veers off course even one tad bit, I’m ready to retake control. This car needs a pilot, a pilot can’t control the vehicle when their hands are off the wheel. The difference between aviators and drivers is that drivers have much less time to react, hence, hands on wheel is vital!
 
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KLC13

Member
Oct 2, 2016
210
897
Toronto
When I use AP, my hands are always on the wheel. When the car veers off course even one tad bit, I’m ready to retake control. This car needs a pilot, a pilot can’t control the vehicle when their hands are off the wheel. The difference between aviator and drivers is that drivers have much less time to react, hence, hands on wheel is vital!

Thanks. I honestly dont know what the official Tesla documentation says regarding having hands on the wheel. I thought it said that the owner should be prepared to take control at anytime. I believe this requirement of taking control anytime (if true) is perhaps what the Tesla lawyers will use to argue their case.
 

Oil4AsphaultOnly

Supporting Member
Mar 14, 2015
1,976
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Arcadia, CA
From my reading of Tesla's blog on the accident, there were no warnings for the driver to take back control just prior the accident. The driver got warnings earlier in the drive, but going into the accident, Autopilot was simply on and the driver could have noticed the approaching barrier, but didn't and neither did Autopilot.

I'd be interested to know if Autopilot somehow got confused into thinking that was a lane - where an alert operator would have time to correct, or if those final five seconds were normal driving and then a random swerve.

Not to pile onto this line of thought, but did AEB get applied or was that disabled because of autopilot?
 

sundaymorning

Active Member
Jul 26, 2013
3,464
18,270
Orange County
Thanks. I honestly dont know what the official Tesla documentation says regarding having hands on the wheel. I thought it said that the owner should be prepared to take control at anytime. I believe this requirement of taking control anytime (if true) is perhaps what the Tesla lawyers will use to argue their case.

This is why Tesla made it a point to remind its drivers to always have their hands on the wheel when AP is engaged. They have gone out of their way to make the car give warnings, and in some instances, would stop the vehicle if it doesn’t detect engagement from the driver. This is why Level 3 autonomous will detect your eyes, the Tesla is not at level 5 self driving yet, so hands on wheel is imperative.
 
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