NASA Announcement for the Moon

[Cosmacelf]

It’s as if Boeing actually did not want to win the contract...

True. Without knowing more, that's the most likely explanation.

 

[Grendal]

It’s as if Boeing actually did not want to win the contract...

My guess is they fully expected for NASA to let them win because they are Boeing. However, under Bridenstine, whoever was allowed to run this assessment thought they were allowed to give a truthful assessment. Perhaps because of all their other issues, Boeing is in a weak enough position that this assessment is yet another way for the government to shame Boeing into making some improvements. SpaceX is just doing what they do and they showcase what real innovation and serious goals can achieve over plodding along with steady profit focused maneuvering. Tesla has the same strategy. Actually make compelling alternatives that make your competitors look shamefully boring in comparison.

 

[Grendal]

SpaceX is chosen as one of the companies to build a lunar lander.

The #Artemis generation is going to the Moon to stay. I’m excited to announce that we have selected 3 U.S. companies to develop human landers that will land astronauts on the Moon: @BlueOrigin, @Dynetics & @SpaceX.

The @SpaceX human lander design is a single-stage solution with Starship, their fully reusable launch and landing system designed for travel to the Moon, Mars and beyond. The proposal included an in-space propellent transfer demonstration and uncrewed test landing.

Jim Bridenstine on Twitter

 

[Nikxice]

SpaceX is chosen as one of the companies to build a lunar lander.



Jim Bridenstine on Twitter

That's an interesting combination of companies. Fantastic news that NASA is officially recognizing SpaceX's Starship!
B.O. already has a prototype, but their total time in Space can be measured in minutes. Although, to Bezos credit landing is their speciality.
I have to admit, never even heard of Dynetics. Just looking them up the first thing I noticed is that they're based in Huntsville AL. Who's your daddy!

 

[Grendal]

That's an interesting combination of companies. Fantastic news that NASA is officially recognizing SpaceX's Starship!
B.O. already has a prototype, but their total time in Space can be measured in minutes. Although, to Bezos credit landing is their speciality.
I have to admit, never even heard of Dynetics. Just looking them up the first thing I noticed is that they're based in Huntsville AL. Who's your daddy!

BO is the "National Lander." Meaning that they teamed up with bigger and older companies to give them the experience factor they were lacking to move forward.

 

[Cosmacelf]

I was amused that Bridenstine felt he had to justify the award to SpaceX. Frankly, they are the most experienced company in this group.

Elon needs to learn to ask for more money! I would bet that they could have asked for 50% more and NASA would have given it to them.

So, it sound like these are just initial development contracts that will last all of ten months? And then NASA may riff a contractor or two?

 

[ecarfan]

Elon needs to learn to ask for more money!

For sure. I was shocked to learn that NASA awarded SpaceX a paltry $137 million. In the world of manned space flight beyond Earth orbit that’s pocket change. But I think that Elon was trying to make a point; SpaceX can do what other companies do for a fraction of the cost. Which of course Bridenstine is fully aware of.

But still, building a Starship with life support capabilities for weeks and the ability to land on the Moon and then return to Earth should be worth a lot more than what SpaceX got.

Of the 3 companies I would say SpaceX is clearly way ahead in terms of proven technology and demonstrated expertise. But they still have a long way to go to achieve a Moon landing and safe return using a vehicle that has yet to fly.

 

[mongo]

For sure. I was shocked to learn that NASA awarded SpaceX a paltry $137 million. In the world of manned space flight beyond Earth orbit that’s pocket change. But I think that Elon was trying to make a point; SpaceX can do what other companies do for a fraction of the cost. Which of course Bridenstine is fully aware of.

But still, building a Starship with life support capabilities for weeks and the ability to land on the Moon and then return to Earth should be worth a lot more than what SpaceX got.

Of the 3 companies I would say SpaceX is clearly way ahead in terms of proven technology and demonstrated expertise. But they still have a long way to go to achieve a Moon landing and safe return using a vehicle that has yet to fly.

It's only for the preliminary design development, not the fully built system, nor any flights:

NASA’s commercial partners will refine their lander concepts through the contract base period ending in February 2021. During that time, the agency will evaluate which of the contractors will perform initial demonstration missions. NASA will later select firms for development and maturation of sustainable lander systems followed by sustainable demonstration missions. NASA intends to procure transportation to the lunar surface as commercial space transportation services after these demonstrations are complete. During each phase of development, NASA and its partners will use critical lessons from earlier phases to hone the final concepts that will be used for future lunar commercial services.

https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/...velop-human-landers-for-artemis-moon-missions

 

[Cosmacelf]

Yes, Blue Origin got more money, but they have to waste it, I mean, spend it on various politically connected sub contractors.

 

[e-FTW]

Note the names on the National Team. And the Dynetics bid is multiple contractors.

 

[ecarfan]

It's only for the preliminary design development, not the fully built system, nor any flights:

Thanks for correcting me. My error!

 

[Grendal]

Scott Manley on the Moon proposals. Very good at summing up what is known.

And an article on Space News:
NASA selects three companies for human landing system awards - SpaceNews.com

 

[ecarfan]

Great analysis by Scott based on what little we know about the three proposals.

This image caught my attention, as it relates to an earlier discussion in this thread about the issue of a Starship landing on the lunar surface and potentially digging itself into a hole due to loose regality being blasted away by the landing engines. It seems SpaceX has a solution, using small engines nearer the nose of the spacecraft for the final descent to the surface. Pretty cool solution!

 

[ecarfan]

One aspect of Scott’s explanation of the SpaceX proposal that I did not understand: the Starship design shown has no visible heat shielding or canards for reentry aerobraking into Earth’s atmosphere, so how does the crew get home? I could not follow what he was saying about that.

 

[Cosmacelf]

One aspect of Scott’s explanation of the SpaceX proposal that I did not understand: the Starship design shown has no visible heat shielding or canards for reentry aerobraking into Earth’s atmosphere, so how does the crew get home? I could not follow what he was saying about that.

I don’t remembering him giving an answer. Isn’t that what lunar gateway is all about? These designs were just for lunar landing, I don’t know if any of them had earth return capability.

 

[Grendal]

I don’t remembering him giving an answer. Isn’t that what lunar gateway is all about? These designs were just for lunar landing, I don’t know if any of them had earth return capability.

Exactly. This is a specialized Starship specifically for landing on the Moon. It will always be space bound. The reality is this money is for R & D with emphasis on the D. So it is a way for NASA to give some money to SpaceX for Starship development.

 

[ecarfan]

I don’t remembering him giving an answer. Isn’t that what lunar gateway is all about? These designs were just for lunar landing, I don’t know if any of them had earth return capability.

I thought these landers were for the much hyped and totally underfunded mission to get humans on the Moon in 2024, before the Gateway is built.

Exactly. This is a specialized Starship specifically for landing on the Moon. It will always be space bound. The reality is this money is for R & D with emphasis on the D. So it is a way for NASA to give some money to SpaceX for Starship development.

So it will go to the Moon direct — no Gateway required — and then it will lift off from the Moon and rendezvous with another spacecraft that will return the crew to Earth, and this Starship will remain in orbit somewhere?

 

[mongo]

So it will go to the Moon direct — no Gateway required — and then it will lift off from the Moon and rendezvous with another spacecraft that will return the crew to Earth, and this Starship will remain in orbit somewhere

Thoughts:
Maybe this is the new Gateway?
More likely:
Refuel lander from Earth reentry Starships. Transfer the crews at ISS. Could use Dragons for reentry on early missions and let Starships return uncrewed for validation.

 

[SwTslaGrl]

I think the SLS and Orion will carry astronauts to the moon orbit and back.

From Everyday Astronaut's SLS vs Starship article:

"For Artemis III to get to the Moon in 2024, it will need to use the Block 1 SLS. The lander will need to fly on a separate commercial rocket... NASA created a set of requirements so contractors can bid for the lander contract. In doing so, they hope it is a quick process to meet their ambitious timeline to get astronauts on the Moon by 2024."

SLS vs Starship: Why Do Both Programs Exist?

 

[e-FTW]

RIght, this Starship lunar lander will be thrown to LEO and need to be refuelled (twice) and then rendez-vous with Orion, gather the humans, go to the moon, land, take off and go to an orbit where it drops off the humans. And then stay in orbit permanently for more trips like this.

Honestly doubt this design will be retained by NASA. But the development money can’t hurt.