I still don't know why you aren't installing a Wall Connector. Would use 6/2 instead of 6/3, so cheaper. Wouldn't need a 50A GFCI, so cheaper. Wouldn't need a receptacle, so cheaper. Surge arrestor? For lightning spikes?Well, if that's what it takes to get the job done (2k), I don't mind paying it, but I get different responses from each electrician. Another guy stopped by yesterday afternoon, he didn't mention GFI, permit or surge protector. I do know the code requires GFI and permit. He said it will add to the cost but can be done if I want to. So sounds like not everyone follows the code. So far I received 6 quotes and all have different suggestions and rates. Only two recommended permits. Even the reputable ones said permit is just money grab by the govt. But again, once they finish the project and get paid, its not their problem anymore. lol
And I did see a column that asks 'if any repair/custom electrical work have been done and if yes, all required permit was pulled?' when we purchased our home and in the paperwork submitted by the seller. So moving forward, it's gona come back and bite me if I don't get the permit I guess during a future transaction. That would be the main reason to get a permit and for insurance claims purposes just in case.
GFI is supposed to be a good thing, but read so many people complaining about it tripping the circuit unnecessarily and being a total hassle.
How about Surge protector? Is it required or recommended? We are following NEC 2017, and I don't think its required yet?
I just bought a RVMate splitter from Amazon as a temp solution until I install the nema 14-50 outlet. It doesnt have a swtich and hence kinda risky, all it takes is one accidental overloading especially with multiple people( some totally lazy and irresponsible) in the house.lol
I am totally happy with the 24A, 24 miles/hr charging speed using the dryer outlet as I have M3 standard. Fully charges overnight and hence the 14-50 doesnt really makes much difference other than the convenience factor.
I dont want to buy another active/passive splitter like DryerBuddy or similar unit as I read mixed reviews about it. Failing after 9 months of successfull use and now you are back to square one after spending $300+ already. Luckily I bought my splitter unit from HD and they have 90 days return poilicy unlike Amazon or any online seller. So I got my money back on returning it last week, not gona make the same mistake again.
Still wating on 2 more estimates from electrciians who suggested using permits. Most likely will pick one of them. I have another one scheduled for tomorrow. Will update soon.
Updated estimate :
- Installation of 50A 2 pole GFCI Breaker Switch for electric charger in the Main Panel.
- Run 6/3 Romex wire up to 100 feet from the Breaker Switch in the Main Panel to the garage where the new EV charger will be installed.
- Miscellaneous, all necessary wiring connectors, screws, anchors, straps, fasteners, tie-downs, nuts, bolts, etc.
- Cut and Patch drywall in all necessary areas for access to run the wire. *We patch it smooth, but we do not paint.*
- Installation of new surge arrestor.
- Installation of the new EV charger at the newly installed Receptacle.
- (*EV charger price is not included in total price*)
- Permit price is included in total price.
- Installation of a Junction box, and cover.
Total: $2,000 Installed with permit. All other miscellaneous parts, materials, and labor included.
I received $1625 quote from another reputable guy but with no permit GFCI or surge protector. I guess $400 extra to make it code complaint reasonable?
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Nema 14-50 or Nema 14-30 dryer outlet
- Thread starter nitynity
- Start date
I still don't know why you aren't installing a Wall Connector. Would use 6/2 instead of 6/3, so cheaper. Wouldn't need a 50A GFCI, so cheaper. Wouldn't need a receptacle, so cheaper. Surge arrestor? For lightning spikes?
davewill
Active Member
Here's the deal. The 14-50 outlet and GFCI breaker will work fine. There is a non-zero chance that at some future time, the GFCI breaker will malfunction and you will have to replace it, but it's not something to stress over. Almost all of the problems that have ever been reported here have involved 120v GFCI outlets, not 240v GFCI breakers.
The other thing to do if you decide on this approach is INSIST on a Hubbel/Bryant outlet. Even if you have to go out and buy the outlet yourself to get them to install it. Do not let them install the Leviton outlet under ANY circumstances.
I would urge that the wire installed be suitable for a 60a circuit (#6 THHN or #4 NM-B) as it should not add much to the install cost, just in case you change your mind someday about faster charging and a wall connector. However, if you don't want do that, everything will still be fine.
I have two EVSEs, one on a 6-50 (40a, 12yo) and one on a 14-50 (50a with 60a capable wiring, 5yo) outlet and they've been completely reliable. I installed this way because neither install was intended for a Tesla. If I were doing it today, I'd use a wall connector, but I don't expect to need to change them until one of the EVSEs breaks down.
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Eric33432
Member
The 30% tax credit will net you $300. That is for EVSE, including its installation. If you install the Tesla Wall Connector, you will save on the cost of the GFCI, and the wire (6/2 instead of 6/3), and the Hubble receptacle. At least $200 savings, probably a bit more. Right there you have a free Tesla Wall Connector! No brainer! Unless you don't pay Federal Income tax or have AGI over $300,000. If your AGI is over $300k, you probably would not be worried about this cost anyway, would you.
Can't you tell we all really want you to install a TWC!
If you bought your Tesla Mobile Connector in 2023, you can get 30% tax credit on that, and probably could take the tax credit for "installing it" by installing the 14-50, so that is $300. The 30% tax credit is limited to the cost of installing EVSE up to $1,000. If you bought it prior to 2023, not sure if you can take the tax credit.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
This is my suggestion too, although OP should realize that Romex will only allow a 50A breaker while #6 conductors in flex conduit will allow a 60Amp breaker (both presuming the service panel can handle the load and no adjustments or corrections apply.)
I'm equivocal about permits, although the electrical company I work for pretty much follows the latest NEC to the letter. We do not quote work with permits unless they are unavoidable, but we are happy to permit any job if the customer wants one. From our standpoint, the permit is cheap and easy to order, but it forces us to waste the better part of a work day waiting for an inspector to show up to answer any questions. Whether a permit is pulled or not, we do the exact same workmanship and attention to NEC. Inspectors vary in competency; I'll guess that 90% of them in my locale know what they are doing in general, but probably a fair fewer number where EVSE installations are concerned. Inspectors learn to focus on a few things either dear to their hearts, or to their supervisors. in a recent inspection of a Habitat for Humanity new home we wired, the inspector checked two things: that all the fan boxes had grounding, and that receptacle outlets did not exceed the maximum allowed distance between them. I could not help but laugh at the foolishness when I heard about it later.
Regarding CYA, an inspection does NOT in and of itself provide liability protection by the local government. In fact, the small print of inspections is crystal clear that the inspector shoulders no responsibility for their assessment. Moreover, poor workmanship is #1 in safety issues and the inspector is VERY unlikely to ever notice. S/he is not going to measure torque tightening, or even note the wire gauge. S/he most certainly is not going to know if an adjustable Amps EVSE has been set correctly, or know that a 14-50 circuit has to be derated because it will be used for EV charging, or question the quality of a listed receptacle.
If I was an informed homeowner, I would look for a good electrician and probably skip the permit. As a counterpoint for the OP, we would reject customers that would likely result in only 1/6 of quotes turning into work. The time wasted is just too high. In return, our EVSE work is typically about 1/2 of the price quotes OP has received. The irony is that OP would likely reject our quote as too low, and therefore suspicious.
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I reached out to the electrician to give me a quote for a wall connector with 6/2 cable.
Based on my math, the difference would be under $350, still short of $125 for the wall connector as it costs $475 on Tesla site.
Assuming I will get the tax credit, regardless, which option I choose.
I purchased the Tesla on December 2022. So I’m not quite sure if I can still claim for the rebate or the tax credits for installation. But I didn’t install it until 2023 January though at my previous place.
Lol. I wouldn’t turn down a quote just because it’s too low. At my last property I paid $475 for the install in Texas. But the panel was in the garage itself so there wasn’t any long wire pull
needed. Neither did I use a GFCI outlet but I did purchase the Bryant commercial grade receptacle. I used it without any issues for six months before I sold the property.
That’s why I was surprised to See all this expensive quotes and extra code requirements in Maryland. At the end of the day it’s all about peace of mind. I could find someone to get it installed for $1200 or even less without Permit or any of the other criterias. But I won’t be able to claim the tax credit. But at that amount it’s not a big deal.
Eric33432
Member
I can't say you will get the 30% tax credit for a Tesla Mobile Connector purchased in 2022. Can't say you will get a 30% tax credit for a receptacle installed in 2023 for a mobile connector, whether it is in Texas or Maryland.
Not sure why you say you won't get or could care less about the tax credit, unless you do not pay tax of course.
But if you do pay tax, and AGI under $300k, I can say you will get a $300 tax credit for an EVSE such as a Tesla Wall Connector purchased in 2023, and the installation of said connector if the total of these come to >$1,000.
Another advantage of the Wall Connector is: it is, well, just better looking, has a place to store the cable, etc.
I meant If the permit and GFCI install costs me $600+ more why would I worry about a $300 credit since I heard, you need to pull a permit to claim the credit?
Again with IRS who knows if I qualify or not it’s more like gambling with my situation. I did purchase a wall mount for mobile connector and for hanging the wire as well. So I am all good there.
My another concern would be in case if I choose to get a non Tesla EV in the future can I still use the wall connector ? that’s another reason I want to go with a nema outlet so I can use it for all kind of EVs without having to purchase extra hardwares.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Yes, in one of three ways:
- Your future car has a NACS port
- You buy a Tesla -> J1772 adapter
- You buy the universal WC
Eric33432
Member
I bought my first TWC in 2022 for my Model X, and can't claim any tax credit for that, but I'm claiming the credit this year for a Tesla Wall Connector, and the MC cable, I bought for the little black M3 RWD Tessie we got back in September. My accountant said all I need is the receipts. Said nothing about needing a permit. I seriously doubt that the IRS cares, perhaps others can chime in.
If the IRS ever disputed it it would not be a big deal. Just pay the tax. If I were you I would claim the tax credit even if you just install the receptacle for the mobile connector.
Looks like this last quote is very good. Hope you make a decision soon.
I keep the mobile connector in my Model X for road trips, along with a Tesla extension cord made by Lectron. Got it included with the MX Tessie back in the day. Have used it a lot but I visit two different close friends in out of the way places where the closest supercharger is maybe 40-50 miles away. Have the adaptors to charge from dryer receptacles, NEMA 6-50 welding receptacle, and NEMA 5-15 and 5-20. It has come in very handy in these situations, and once I forgot it, and it was a hassle not having it when I got to my destination. Now it stays in the Frunk so it can never be forgotten.
Unless you think you will buy another EV during 2024 (or a Volkswagon EV, they seem to be holding out switching to NACS), I would just go with the standard Tesla Wall Connector. Or if you want to let any friends or family with CCS cars charge when they visit you, maybe go with the Universal WC.
This article says you can also claim the cost of a permit as part of the cost of installing ab EVSE but it does not say that to qualify for the tax credit that you MUST get a permit.
The EV Charger Tax Credit Gets A 10-Year Extension—And A Few Upgrades
A recently expired federal tax break for electric vehicle (EV) chargers got new life under the recently passed Inflation Reduction Act—a move that will give taxpayers up to $1,000 in a tax credit. The section 30C tax credit–officially referred to as the Alternative Fuel Vehicle Refueling Property
www.forbes.com
The reason why is that the Leviton 14-50 (and 6-50) outlets use half size steel contacts to the plug blades, which are less conductive than the full size brass contacts used in other 14-50 (and 6-50) outlets. Less conductivity means higher resistance and heat generation, which is the usual cause of melted outlets. Tesla Mobile Connector plug heads do have heat detectors that cause a reduction in charging amperage when too hot, but that means that you may be limited to a lower charging amperage on a Leviton outlet than on some other outlet.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
To be fair, someone dissected one and it appears the contacts are nickel or tin plated brass (it was not magnetic), although the screw and rest of the wire clamp appears to be steel.
NEMA 14-50 outlet installed
However, the half size contacts are still a problem and by far it was the outlet that appears to be reported to have the most overheating problems.
bo3bdar
Member
@nitynity Just curious why you would not go with the most obvious solution of the Dryer Buddy? It's the cheapest and simplest option for your scenario.
teslamotorsclub.com
The auto version automatically disconnects the car when the dryer is running. The car won't care. No plugging/unplugging or flipping switches.
Dryer Buddy Review
Just a quick review for anyone looking to buy a Dryer Buddy. I purchased one instead of having a new outlet installed in my garage. My laundry room opens up into my garage so I didn’t have to worry about the cord being able to reach my car. I mounted it to the wall using drywall anchors and...
teslamotorsclub.com
The auto version automatically disconnects the car when the dryer is running. The car won't care. No plugging/unplugging or flipping switches.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
If you read the earlier posts, he already tried something similar (a $150 manual switch from AC Works) and it failed eventually and he does not want to risk more money on a similar device, especially if it was going to cost him hundreds of dollars (which your examples seems to be also).@nitynity Just curious why you would not go with the most obvious solution of the Dryer Buddy? It's the cheapest and simplest option for your scenario.
Dryer Buddy Review
Just a quick review for anyone looking to buy a Dryer Buddy. I purchased one instead of having a new outlet installed in my garage. My laundry room opens up into my garage so I didn’t have to worry about the cord being able to reach my car. I mounted it to the wall using drywall anchors and...
The auto version automatically disconnects the car when the dryer is running. The car won't care. No plugging/unplugging or flipping switches.
I suggested earlier in the thread a similar product that was actually UL listed (the NeoCharge) but OP was not interested either.
I'm curious how a manual switch can fail so quickly as presumably it would be at least designed for a daily actuation (which shouldn't be too hard to design for, there are plenty of dirt cheap light switches that can do that).
For example, here's a 30A double pole switch, which is only $16.77 at Home Depot:
Leviton 30 Amp Industrial Double Pole Switch, White R62-03032-2WS - The Home Depot
Edit (actually need the DPDT version) which is $54 at Amazon:
Amazon.com
It's rated for 50k cycles minimum (that's 68 years of switching two times a day):
1288
Didn't know such a thing existed, but apparently it does, so theoretically you can just install that and another 14-30 outlet (for the EVSE) and you can have something that appears to be code compliant. It seems someone did exactly that in the Amazon reviews:
Amazon.com
It seems the AC Works brand has a 5 year warranty, and not sure if the OP ever tried contacting them for warranty coverage:
AC WORKS® brand Limited Warranty
From the same google results of searching for a double pole switch, the AC Works switch cable seems to use a Merz Changeover switch (or a clone), $40 at the site I found:
https://www.automationdirect.com/ad..._-a-_switches/rotary_cam_switches/z451-2.h08b
Those types of switches from Merz are also rated for 50k cycles for the 32A versions (higher amp versions are rated 30k cycles). The clone must be really bad to fail with only a few months of usage.
https://enertronic.es/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Catálogo-Merz.pdf
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Another update from the electrician for TWC installation
Total price for Tesla wall connector will be $1,900.
Yes, 6/2 wire can be used, but some inspectors want us to use 6/3 wire.
We cannot really argue with hoco inspectors.
We will be using 2 pole 60 amp breaker switch for wall connector and 2 pole 50 amp GFI breaker switch for plug type.
Price difference between 2 pole 50 amp GFI breaker switch and 2 pole 60 amp breaker switch is $100, so I reduced that amount from the total price.
I would personally recommend wall connector for tesla brand
Doesn’t make any sense only difference is $100.
Total price for Tesla wall connector will be $1,900.
Yes, 6/2 wire can be used, but some inspectors want us to use 6/3 wire.
We cannot really argue with hoco inspectors.
We will be using 2 pole 60 amp breaker switch for wall connector and 2 pole 50 amp GFI breaker switch for plug type.
Price difference between 2 pole 50 amp GFI breaker switch and 2 pole 60 amp breaker switch is $100, so I reduced that amount from the total price.
I would personally recommend wall connector for tesla brand
Doesn’t make any sense only difference is $100.
I did a research on all these items and most of the time it’s hit or miss. There are mixed reviews and people complaining It fails eventually within a year. There is no guarantee how long these items will last on daily usage.@nitynity Just curious why you would not go with the most obvious solution of the Dryer Buddy? It's the cheapest and simplest option for your scenario.
Dryer Buddy Review
Just a quick review for anyone looking to buy a Dryer Buddy. I purchased one instead of having a new outlet installed in my garage. My laundry room opens up into my garage so I didn’t have to worry about the cord being able to reach my car. I mounted it to the wall using drywall anchors and...
The auto version automatically disconnects the car when the dryer is running. The car won't care. No plugging/unplugging or flipping switches.
Even if it lasts 2-3 years, it still costs money to fix it when it breaks. So I rather do something as a permanent fix and forget it.
The AC works adapter I used cost me $275 for total installation. But I got the $150 back on returning it. Thanks to Home Depot generous 90day return policy. If I would’ve bought something similar from Amazon, or somewhere else, I would have been out of luck. Also, I understand that this type of spring loaded switches may not be ideal for daily usage.
It eventually got stuck, and it wouldn’t flip to one position. I didn’t bother calling the manufacturer because I wasn’t interested in a replacement and take another chance.
There are several other varieties available in Amazon but again it has negative reviews, and no response from the manufacturer when the owner asked for a refund. So I was hesitant to look into any of those options. As of now I am only out $125 and I don’t want to make it $500+ moving forward lol
Eric33432
Member
Is this the same electrician in your "Second Electrician" post?
Curious if you decided to go with inspection? I thought Sabebush had some interesting comments regarding that, which mirror my experience in dealing with reputable electricians.
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Eric33432
Member
I do think your comments regarding Dryer Buddy, etc., are correct. It is always best to have a dedicated circuit if it is possible. Sometimes it is not economically possible, or someone is renting or will be moving soon, etc., so there is still a place for such devices depending on circumstances.
Good luck with whatever you do!
The first electrician quoted me 2K for Nema outlet and now $1900 for TWC.
The second guy is at $1345. I think I would just go with him and get it over with.
There is another guy coming this afternoon for a quote. The appointment was scheduled two weeks ago so we will see how that goes before I make a final decision.
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