I would believe that.
In my purely unscientific, but genuinely anecdotal experience of owning a '20 M3P and a '23 M3P - they seem the exact same to me.
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New M3P have lowered suspension?
- Thread starter White_Walker
- Start date
In my purely unscientific, but genuinely anecdotal experience of owning a '20 M3P and a '23 M3P - they seem the exact same to me.
Dan203
Active Member
I just returned my leased 2019 Model 3 Performance and picked up a new 2023 Model 3 Performance. The higher ride height is annoying. I liked that the old one was low and sporty. This one feels more like my 2016 BMW 340i, which I didn’t really care for.
I'm sure I'll get use to it, but I really wish they hadn’t done this.
Also the lack of radar and USS sucks! I couldn’t even use cruise control on my drive home because it needed to "calibrate the cameras". And when I'm parking I get zero indication how close I am to anything. This is my first car in 15 years that doesn’t have parking sensors.
There are some positives. The heated steering wheel is nice and it seems a lot quieter on the highway. But honestly I still wish Tesla would have had a lease buyout option so I could have just kept the old one.
I'm sure I'll get use to it, but I really wish they hadn’t done this.
Also the lack of radar and USS sucks! I couldn’t even use cruise control on my drive home because it needed to "calibrate the cameras". And when I'm parking I get zero indication how close I am to anything. This is my first car in 15 years that doesn’t have parking sensors.
There are some positives. The heated steering wheel is nice and it seems a lot quieter on the highway. But honestly I still wish Tesla would have had a lease buyout option so I could have just kept the old one.
@Dan203 The bigger difference than ride height is that newer Model 3, approximately 2021+, are just overall softer. My 2021 M3P had the "lowered suspension" but it still felt softer (when it was stock) than 2018 or 2020 M3LR that I've driven.I just returned my leased 2019 Model 3 Performance and picked up a new 2023 Model 3 Performance. The higher ride height is annoying. I liked that the old one was low and sporty. This one feels more like my 2016 BMW 340i, which I didn’t really care for.
I'm sure I'll get use to it, but I really wish they hadn’t done this.
Also the lack of radar and USS sucks! I couldn’t even use cruise control on my drive home because it needed to "calibrate the cameras". And when I'm parking I get zero indication how close I am to anything. This is my first car in 15 years that doesn’t have parking sensors.
There are some positives. The heated steering wheel is nice and it seems a lot quieter on the highway. But honestly I still wish Tesla would have had a lease buyout option so I could have just kept the old one.
The 2021+ refinements are nice though. If you're open to modifying the suspension then you can get a setup that's much better than any stock Model 3.
Dan203
Active Member
I'd really like to do something to get me back to the height and feel of the 2019 M3P. I really don’t like how the new one feels. There is just too much body lean in a fast corner. In my old one I could whip around a corner at 50mph like it was on rails. The new one feels like it's going to tip over.
Honestly my new one feels almost identical to my 2016 BMW 340i which I didn’t like either. It had adjustable air suspension and even on the "sport" setting it still sucked.
I don’t mind a slightly harsher ride. I don’t drive that many miles anyway. But I don’t want to be scraping speed bumps or worrying about my front bumper every time I pull up to a curb. All the lowering kits I've seen talk about dropping it over an inch. The current one is only about a half inch higher than my 2019 was based on the specs I could find, so dumping it a full 1-1.5" seems like too much.
Are there any middle ground lowering kits? Something that will only lower it about 1/2" and stiffen it up in the corners?
Honestly my new one feels almost identical to my 2016 BMW 340i which I didn’t like either. It had adjustable air suspension and even on the "sport" setting it still sucked.
I don’t mind a slightly harsher ride. I don’t drive that many miles anyway. But I don’t want to be scraping speed bumps or worrying about my front bumper every time I pull up to a curb. All the lowering kits I've seen talk about dropping it over an inch. The current one is only about a half inch higher than my 2019 was based on the specs I could find, so dumping it a full 1-1.5" seems like too much.
Are there any middle ground lowering kits? Something that will only lower it about 1/2" and stiffen it up in the corners?
I know exactly what you're talking about with the bouncy, mushy stock suspension on 2021+ Model 3. I also remember how numb and boring those F30 BMWs were for that matter, especially compared to older 3 series!
Are you asking for springs? I think the damping changed for 2021+. I don't think you can get the older Model 3 handling just from replacing springs.
The very cheapest option would be getting used takeoff stock dampers + springs from an older Model 3. Probably that would get you what you miss from the older car.
If you want something better, I can say firsthand the Redwood Motorsports "Performance Sport" Öhlins DFV coilovers give an excellent ride and handling balance, entirely better than the suspension on a 2020 M3LR AWD that I recently had for several days as a loaner. The Redwood coilovers support the height you're looking for, I have mine setup at my 2021 M3P's stock height.
https://redwoodmotorsports.com/collections/model-3/products/ohlins-model-3?variant=33187680682087
While you're at it, I highly recommend the Mountain Pass Performance front lower control arm bearings as a complement to any good sporty coilovers for this car. I think they really help with mid-corner steering response.
https://www.mountainpassperformance.com/product/tesla-front-lower-control-arm-bearings-model-3-y/
Those are just what I have experience with.
If the Redwood Öhlins DFV are too expensive, they just came out with a cheaper FPX line that's mostly the same except built around a more affordable damper.
https://redwoodmotorsports.com/coll...-redwood-motorsports-™?variant=39508963983463
@excelsior13 Install cost can vary widely depending where you are (cost of labor / wages). Email or call some shops in your area and ask. I did DiY install with my friend's help.
Two notes on the coilovers. First, I got the optional pillowball top hats. No regrets, I'm glad I got them and so far so good. Logically they are kinda overkill for pure street use. I just wanted to try them anyways.
They add very mild background noise over large bumps and rough pavement. Tire impact noise over such pavement is much louder, so I have to listen carefully to even notice the pillowball noise, but if I listen carefully I can make it out. It's exactly what I expected from pillowballs, no more (and Redwood made sure I knew to expect a little NVH when I added the pillowballs to my order).Even with the pillowballs, my 2021 M3P is still quieter in all noise aspects than that 2020 M3LR loaner I had. (Which itself was fine in my book.)
Second, I got the "remote adjusters" for the front dampers and those I highly recommend for anyone! They make it trivial to adjust the dampers without any tools. Just open the drunk, pull off the upper front panel (pops off no tools involved), and then twist the remote adjuster knobs.
The rear damper adjusters are very easy to reach and turn, so long as you have mobility to lie down next to the car. Again no tools needed.
I can adjust all 4 corners in 1-2 minutes, depending how many clicks I'm counting. So for example I generally keep the car in a setting my wife likes, halfway stiff (16 of 32 clicks), and when it's just me in the car for a longer drive I'll tighten it up to my preferred setting, about 2/3rds stuff (11 of 32 clicks). FWIW the car still handles great in my wife's setting, but I love the super taught feeling from tightening it up further. Feels very sports sedan at 11 clicks.
Note you can tell the Performance Sport springs are firmer than stock. But over any rough stuff or with any speed, it still rides better. It's very well controlled and composed.
Nice that you got r’ done DIY style. Good way to bond with your car!
Fair enough on the install price varying wildly (I’ll have nice Ma$$ pricing for $ure)— I was wondering essentially the level of effort involved in terms of hours…how long did it take you & your bud to get it done?
I’m assuming that all this suspension stuff is completely unrelated to the electric powered nature of Teslas—i.e. that a “regular” performance shop could do it. I haven’t yet researched tesla performance shops in MA.
My other car is an ‘18 Golf R DSG, so I’m really hoping I can get the M3P up to that level of handling awesomeness. Will probably stick with the stock suspension for a bit to level set/get a control.
Thanks for the info!
Dan203
Active Member
@excelsior13 In an expensive part of the country, quotes I got were around $500 - $900. I think I've seen people post $300 on these forums from more affordable parts of the country. Alignment separate.
Yup Model 3 suspension is just car suspension, there's nothing really EV specific about it, any mechanic should be able to work on it. If a shop says something like "we don't work on EV's" when you're just asking about suspension, I wouldn't want them touching my car anyways!
I think the M3P with the Performance Sport Öhlins will exceed the Golf R handling for balance and composure. I can still tell it weighs 4000 lbs but at the same time it feels nothing like 4000 lbs ICE sedan/hatch/wagon. The balance is much more sports car like, despite the dimensions and weight being clearly sedan. Around high speed turns the weight feels practically sucked to the road from under the middle of the car. On tighter twistier roads the composure of the coilovers, the car's weight balance, low cg, quick steering, and Track Mode all come together in an amazing way. If there's one weak spot to this car's handling it's the limited rear suspension travel. Coilovers can't really change that but hitting those rear bump stops when going fast over big dips or bumps is a vastly smoother experience on the coilovers (compared to stock 2021 M3P suspension).
And all this comes without having to do tricks like run crazy stiff rear sway bars just to bring balance to a front-heavy sedan. (I've been there.) So suspension independence and ride quality aren't compromised.
Yup Model 3 suspension is just car suspension, there's nothing really EV specific about it, any mechanic should be able to work on it. If a shop says something like "we don't work on EV's" when you're just asking about suspension, I wouldn't want them touching my car anyways!
I think the M3P with the Performance Sport Öhlins will exceed the Golf R handling for balance and composure. I can still tell it weighs 4000 lbs but at the same time it feels nothing like 4000 lbs ICE sedan/hatch/wagon. The balance is much more sports car like, despite the dimensions and weight being clearly sedan. Around high speed turns the weight feels practically sucked to the road from under the middle of the car. On tighter twistier roads the composure of the coilovers, the car's weight balance, low cg, quick steering, and Track Mode all come together in an amazing way. If there's one weak spot to this car's handling it's the limited rear suspension travel. Coilovers can't really change that but hitting those rear bump stops when going fast over big dips or bumps is a vastly smoother experience on the coilovers (compared to stock 2021 M3P suspension).
And all this comes without having to do tricks like run crazy stiff rear sway bars just to bring balance to a front-heavy sedan. (I've been there.) So suspension independence and ride quality aren't compromised.
Oh man I am so excited about this!
Good thing about waiting a month for delivery is I’ll be out of the zone where I’d need to immediately buy winter wheels/tires—not till thanksgiving!
so I can spend that $$ on suspension instead
Thanks again for your excellent and informative posts!
TM1v2, when you have a moment, I was wondering if you’d considered the offerings from Mountain Pass Performance while you were considering suspension upgrades, and if you had any comments about comparing the 2…they both seem to offer (based on very happy customer reviews) a world of upgrade difference from stock
@excelsior13 I'm a very happy customer of MPP's bushing upgrades, for what that's worth. I've no firsthand experience with their coilovers, or any KW-based suspension, but I also have no doubt that their coilovers are a major improvement over stock too.
First, there's one functional difference: MPP's Model 3 coilovers require lowering the car below the old "lowered suspension" stock M3P height. I think technically you could run enough preload on the MPP's to reach stock height, but you really don't want to do that. It would mess up the ride and handling because the damper body length and stroke wasn't designed for that much extension. If you want to lower anyways, this doesn't matter at all, but if you want to run stock height like me then this isn't ideal.
The Redwood Ohlins DFV coilovers, and the new cheaper FPX ones, fully support stock height. The Ohlins damper bodies are adjustable length. (Probably the FPX dampers are too. I'm guessing the FPX dampers are too. Whereas the KW damper bodies in MPP's coilovers are fixed length. I also suspect the Redwood Ohlins DFV have a longer supported stroke overall, but that's totally a guess, don't take that as a fact.
My own thoughts on lowering, this is just my 2c on it, everyone has their own preferences, priorities, and tolerances: For me and my wife, lowering just doesn't make sense. Even the stock 2021 M3P "lowered suspension" height is already questionably low for our driving. Lowered does look cool, and lowered can have handling benefits on a racetrack or other smooth well-maintained pavement, and might have a very small benefit for highway efficiency as well. But for our roads, where we drive, it doesn't make sense. Huge potholes, nasty moon surface pavement, large speedbumps, steep ramps, gravel and dirt driveways, etc. Not everywhere we drive is like that, but lots of it is.
Also, this car doesn't really come with any camber adjustability. If you lower much you'll need camber-adjustable control arms to bring camber back to street-friendly levels. That's like $1.5k ish for MPP or Redwood parts (front + rear). (I think there are some cheaper options now from lesser-regarded companies without as much Tesla focus as Redwood or MPP.) If you're going to do track days or autox or such you'll want camber adjustability anyways! But for pure street use, I'd rather save that money or spend it elsewhere (wheels, tires). If you lower and skip the camber arms, you will wear through your tires' inner tread excessively quick, and ultimately that will cost you more than just getting the adjustable arms. If the money is not a big deal though then by all means buy some nice pretty control arms from Redwood or MPP, I think they quality parts, and honestly I might trust them more than Tesla's OEM arms! Especially for performance driving. (Tesla has some history of issues with a few of its stock control arms and bushings.)
There are a LOT of folks on these forums who are happy with their lowered Model 3. Some are doing actual track stuff, but many lowered just for the look. Heck many did it with springs on the stock dampers which is something I'd never do on this car. (On cars with good performance damping from the factory, yes I'd be open to it, Model 3 isn't one of those though.) Everyone's priorities and preferences are different, as well as their roads, so don't feel like you need to follow my thinking on this.
Edit: Also, MPP offers a "lift kit" of suspension spacers for $500. When combined with their lowering coilovers it might let you achieve stock height, though I'm not 100% sure about that, maybe it would force you above stock height. I don't know of any big downsides to a setup like that, in fact I think a lot of Model Y folks are happily running the MPP lift kit without issue (for actual lift above stock Y height). Using a lift kit just to get back to stock height wouldn't be my first choice though.
More to come on non-lowering things in a second post...
@excelsior13 Okay, moving on now from the lowering topic! I'm going to split this up into a couple more posts. Most of these aren't intended to sway you, rather just inform so you can figure out how your preferences match up. Also I obviously kinda like geeking out over this stuff.
[ Seriously I think both Redwood and MPP make quality stuff that is well-tuned and well-spec'd for these particular cars. I trust them both, and I think everything each them sells is legit performance parts with their own unique takes. Neither of them likes to do copycat products the way some performance part companies do, and neither of them bothers with bling-only stuff. You won't go wrong either way. ]
There is one other direct functional difference: damper adjustment. Each has their advantages.
Ohlins DFV (whether Redwood's highly customized version or any other Ohlins DFV based suspension) has a single adjustment for compression + rebound damping. So you basically have a preset compression:rebound relationship curve from whoever spec'd the valving (Redwood in this case). Also, as I understand it the DFV adjustment affects rebound more than compression, and that's fundamental to the DFV (i.e. it wouldn't really be possible for Redwood to make the DFV adjustment affect compression more than rebound, even if they wanted to).
Whereas the MPP KW dampers have separate compression and rebound adjustment. The upside of this is obvious, it should give more fine tuning flexibility if you have specific preferences that might not match a preset. I've never had dampers with separate adjustments like that so I really can't say firsthand how much real world benefit you or I might get from them. Certainly the extra customization potential is there though.
There's two minor downsides to dual adjustment though. Nothing major, just worth considering. For one, dialing in two dimensions of damper adjustment might be more than you actually care for. Personally I wouldn't "mind" that aspect, but at the same time I don't feel any need for dual adjustment on my street car (or even if I was still doing casual track days). It's a lot more combinations of settings to try. Personally I'm happy leaving the compression:rebound relationship to Redwood or MPP or someone else with real experience tuning this stuff for these cars. I'm sure MPP gives guidance on recommended compression:rebound paired settings though so ultimately this is probably not a big deal either way.
The other downside is ease of adjustment. It's not just 2x the adjustment knobs. With the KW's some of the knobs are in relatively inaccessible / awkward places, I believe because each damper has knobs on both ends (compression on one end, rebound on the other). You might have to lift the car a bit, or take off a few panels, or turn the front wheels difference to reach into each side, etc. I don't think it's a big deal, you don't have to take apart the suspension or anything like that! But from what I've read it's not as quick or easy as adjusting the Redwood Ohlins.
Two notes on Redwood's ease of adjustment. First, as I mentioned earlier if you want the front adjustment to be tool-free, then you need to get the remote adjusters. Otherwise you'd need to remove the big frunk panel with a socket wrench. (Well maybe you could bend it enough and reach under...my hands wouldn't fit well doing that though.) Second, Redwood's rear damper setup is inverted...and literally the reason for that is to get the DFV adjuster on the bottom, where it's far easier to access than if it were at the top. (If we had struts then there might be other performance reasons for inverted dampers, but no struts on Teslas, literally the only reason Redwood inverted the rears is for that damper adjustment! And it makes sense to me.)
I'm going to split this up into a couple more posts. Most of these aren't intended to sway you, rather just inform so you can figure out how your preferences match up. Also I obviously kinda like geeking out over this stuff. [ Seriously I think both Redwood and MPP make quality stuff that is well-tuned and well-spec'd for these particular cars. I trust them both, and I think everything each them sells is legit performance parts with their own unique takes. Neither of them likes to do copycat products the way some performance part companies do, and neither of them bothers with bling-only stuff. You won't go wrong either way. ]
There is one other direct functional difference: damper adjustment. Each has their advantages.
Ohlins DFV (whether Redwood's highly customized version or any other Ohlins DFV based suspension) has a single adjustment for compression + rebound damping. So you basically have a preset compression:rebound relationship curve from whoever spec'd the valving (Redwood in this case). Also, as I understand it the DFV adjustment affects rebound more than compression, and that's fundamental to the DFV (i.e. it wouldn't really be possible for Redwood to make the DFV adjustment affect compression more than rebound, even if they wanted to).
Whereas the MPP KW dampers have separate compression and rebound adjustment. The upside of this is obvious, it should give more fine tuning flexibility if you have specific preferences that might not match a preset. I've never had dampers with separate adjustments like that so I really can't say firsthand how much real world benefit you or I might get from them. Certainly the extra customization potential is there though.
There's two minor downsides to dual adjustment though. Nothing major, just worth considering. For one, dialing in two dimensions of damper adjustment might be more than you actually care for. Personally I wouldn't "mind" that aspect, but at the same time I don't feel any need for dual adjustment on my street car (or even if I was still doing casual track days). It's a lot more combinations of settings to try. Personally I'm happy leaving the compression:rebound relationship to Redwood or MPP or someone else with real experience tuning this stuff for these cars. I'm sure MPP gives guidance on recommended compression:rebound paired settings though so ultimately this is probably not a big deal either way.
The other downside is ease of adjustment. It's not just 2x the adjustment knobs. With the KW's some of the knobs are in relatively inaccessible / awkward places, I believe because each damper has knobs on both ends (compression on one end, rebound on the other). You might have to lift the car a bit, or take off a few panels, or turn the front wheels difference to reach into each side, etc. I don't think it's a big deal, you don't have to take apart the suspension or anything like that! But from what I've read it's not as quick or easy as adjusting the Redwood Ohlins.
Two notes on Redwood's ease of adjustment. First, as I mentioned earlier if you want the front adjustment to be tool-free, then you need to get the remote adjusters. Otherwise you'd need to remove the big frunk panel with a socket wrench. (Well maybe you could bend it enough and reach under...my hands wouldn't fit well doing that though.) Second, Redwood's rear damper setup is inverted...and literally the reason for that is to get the DFV adjuster on the bottom, where it's far easier to access than if it were at the top. (If we had struts then there might be other performance reasons for inverted dampers, but no struts on Teslas, literally the only reason Redwood inverted the rears is for that damper adjustment! And it makes sense to me.)
Next comparison is not really about functional differences at all, just stuff I found interesting as I learned more about this business of aftermarket coilovers.
First, obviously companies like Ohlins and KW often make their own full coilover kits. KW has their v2, v3 etc as well as higher end racecar stuff. Ohlins has their in-house DFV based Road & Track line, and they also have some in-house racecar level stuff based on their TTX dampers.
Note, when we got our Model 3 and Redwood coilovers, Ohlins hadn't released or even announced R&T for this car yet, and I'm not sure KW v3 was out yet either. So those weren't even under consideration for me. Knowing what I know now about them, and based on the reports I've read here, I would EASILY pick the Redwood Ohlins DFV over the Ohlins R&T, and EASILY pick the MPP KW's over KW v3. The "off the shelf" Ohlins R&T and KW v3 sound very firm, both damper valving and spring rates, with more racetrack emphasis than I or especially my wife would want for our car. Also Redwood and MPP are focused on relatively few cars and even for racetrack use, I would trust their fine-tuning over the off-the-shelf stuff.
So how does a KW or Ohlins damper become an MPP or Redwood coilover? What's actually different? Turns out, there are more differences than I might've guessed. A lot of it you can tell just by carefully comparing product specs and pictures, e.g. Redwood Ohlins DFV vs Ohlins R&T or MPP Sport/Comfort vs KW v3. Also, MPP and Redwood go about it a little differently. (Again no better or worse here, just different methods.)
First, obviously MPP and Redwood fully specify their own valving profiles and spring rates. Buying the off-the-shelf KW v3 or Ohlins R&T won't get you the same ride or handling, they will be significantly different. They won't even necessarily have the same balance, e.g. Redwood's front:rear spring rate ratio is lower than Ohlins R&T, for a more neutral or even playful handling balance (in theory - I haven't experience R&T firsthand).
In MPP's case, I believe most of the kit, or at least the whole front coilovers, are assembled by KW with KW sourced parts. Again that does NOT mean they're the same as off-the-shelf KW's, they're not. It does mean parts like the mounting hardware are pretty much the same, e.g. the front fork legs look identical between MPP KW's and KW v3. So do the adjuster knobs, aside from MPP having a custom color scheme. That is all 100% fine, there's absolutely nothing wrong with those KW parts. There's no functional reason why MPP would need their own mountain hardware or knobs, and KW has a very solid reputation for quality.
In Redwood's case, everything surrounding the core damper body is their own stuff. I don't know if they do machining in-house, but it's all their own custom parts on the outside. And it is second to none in terms of quality. Those billet fork legs, the (annodized?) adjuster knobs, the gold (or red for FPX) rear spring perches, the billet pillowball top hats, the use of Swift springs, etc...it's all second to none, and suspension art. Are those parts functionally better than the KW hardware? I ain't claiming that! Sure looks pretty though. But, of course there is a downside for all this premium-ness...you pay for it. Ohlins in general is more expensive than KW, and Redwood Ohlins DFV are even pricier on top of that (e.g. compared to Ohlins R&T). The end result is Redwood Ohlins DFV are a good bit more expensive than MPP KW. $4k coilovers for a street car is no joke. Are they "worth it?" Yes to me, but obviously you don't need to spend that much for other options like MPP, and I appreciate that MPP (and KW in general!) has targeted a nice intersection of price, quality, and function.
Also, to be clear the KW bits on the MPP's are in no way low end at all. If you compare the MPP KW's (or KW v3) to stuff like Tien's, in my opinion the KW's (MPP or KW v3) clearly look higher end (as they should for the price point).
The new Redwood FPX kit throws an interesting wrench into the value equation though. FPX for Model 3 didn't exist when I was shopping, so again not something I had to consider. You get all that fancy Redwood custom hardware (just red instead of gold), and Redwood's custom valving + springs, for actually slightly less than MPP KW's. (Though Swift springs are an extra cost with FPX.) How much is really scarified with the more affordable FPX damper? I really truly don't know. The unnamed damper manufacturer used in the FPX kits obviously doesn't have the reputation of Ohlins or KW. I trust that Redwood picked something with basic good quality, but if it were at the level of KW or Ohlins, they'd advertise the name... On the upside, in addition to all the Redwood custom goodness, the FPX support stock height if that matters to you.
But wait, there's more! Right around the time when I got my Redwood Ohlins DFV, Redwood became an authorized Ohlins damper builder and servicer. Redwood now does full damper valving and assembly for the Ohlins DFV in house at their shop. And yes that means they can do rebuilds in house now! Prior to this all Redwood custom Ohlins dampers were assembled by Ohlins USA, as mine were. Functionally there should be no difference whether Ohlins USA or Redwood themselves builds up the damper core. Either way it is being valved to Redwood's specs using official Ohlins parts (just as KW builds the MPP dampers to MPP's specs). I think the biggest reason Redwood pursued this is a very practical one: Ohlins USA has been VERY busy and overloaded in recent times, so Redwood's orders were often severely delayed by many months. Bringing the assembly in house makes Redwood less dependent on Ohlins' labor availability, with the nice side benefits of being able to do rebuilds and custom valving in house now.
Besides Ohlins USA, and Redwood now, there are some other Ohlins authorized servicers/rebuilders scattered around the country. I think Ohlins likes to tightly control who is authorized, they don't want random folks building "Ohlins" branded dampers. I can understand why, though not all damper brands are as uptight about it, but KW is in fact even more uptight...
For KW rebuilds (any KW's including MPP's), I believe the only official option is shipping them out to KW in Germany. Now obviously I'd trust KW headquarters to rebuild their own dampers, no question, but that is less flexible and I'm guessing a slower process (with the international shipping) than Ohlins which can be rebuilt in the USA, possibly even locally to you (depending where you are).
Also, the lack of any 3rd party authorized KW servicer probably explains why MPP hasn't pursued assembling or rebuilding their KW's in house - probably KW just doesn't allow that at all. Also, from what I've seen KW has managed to avoid labor and parts shortages during the pandemic better than Ohlins. I don't think KW has given MPP the same level of order fulfillment delays as was happening with Ohlins USA for Redwood's orders. And it does point to KW likely turning around rebuilds promptly (international shipping aside).
Are rebuilds even going to matter in the slightest for any of us just using these coilovers on the street? I don't know. I think it's worth knowing the options in the back of your mind, but I wouldn't worry about it. Ohlins are used as OEM on some cars. I don't know of any KW OEM applications but KW has a top notch reputation for street coilover reliability, I'd trust their reliability just as much as Ohlins.
First, obviously companies like Ohlins and KW often make their own full coilover kits. KW has their v2, v3 etc as well as higher end racecar stuff. Ohlins has their in-house DFV based Road & Track line, and they also have some in-house racecar level stuff based on their TTX dampers.
Note, when we got our Model 3 and Redwood coilovers, Ohlins hadn't released or even announced R&T for this car yet, and I'm not sure KW v3 was out yet either. So those weren't even under consideration for me. Knowing what I know now about them, and based on the reports I've read here, I would EASILY pick the Redwood Ohlins DFV over the Ohlins R&T, and EASILY pick the MPP KW's over KW v3. The "off the shelf" Ohlins R&T and KW v3 sound very firm, both damper valving and spring rates, with more racetrack emphasis than I or especially my wife would want for our car. Also Redwood and MPP are focused on relatively few cars and even for racetrack use, I would trust their fine-tuning over the off-the-shelf stuff.
So how does a KW or Ohlins damper become an MPP or Redwood coilover? What's actually different? Turns out, there are more differences than I might've guessed. A lot of it you can tell just by carefully comparing product specs and pictures, e.g. Redwood Ohlins DFV vs Ohlins R&T or MPP Sport/Comfort vs KW v3. Also, MPP and Redwood go about it a little differently. (Again no better or worse here, just different methods.)
First, obviously MPP and Redwood fully specify their own valving profiles and spring rates. Buying the off-the-shelf KW v3 or Ohlins R&T won't get you the same ride or handling, they will be significantly different. They won't even necessarily have the same balance, e.g. Redwood's front:rear spring rate ratio is lower than Ohlins R&T, for a more neutral or even playful handling balance (in theory - I haven't experience R&T firsthand).
In MPP's case, I believe most of the kit, or at least the whole front coilovers, are assembled by KW with KW sourced parts. Again that does NOT mean they're the same as off-the-shelf KW's, they're not. It does mean parts like the mounting hardware are pretty much the same, e.g. the front fork legs look identical between MPP KW's and KW v3. So do the adjuster knobs, aside from MPP having a custom color scheme. That is all 100% fine, there's absolutely nothing wrong with those KW parts. There's no functional reason why MPP would need their own mountain hardware or knobs, and KW has a very solid reputation for quality.
In Redwood's case, everything surrounding the core damper body is their own stuff. I don't know if they do machining in-house, but it's all their own custom parts on the outside. And it is second to none in terms of quality. Those billet fork legs, the (annodized?) adjuster knobs, the gold (or red for FPX) rear spring perches, the billet pillowball top hats, the use of Swift springs, etc...it's all second to none, and suspension art. Are those parts functionally better than the KW hardware? I ain't claiming that! Sure looks pretty though.
But, of course there is a downside for all this premium-ness...you pay for it. Ohlins in general is more expensive than KW, and Redwood Ohlins DFV are even pricier on top of that (e.g. compared to Ohlins R&T). The end result is Redwood Ohlins DFV are a good bit more expensive than MPP KW. $4k coilovers for a street car is no joke. Are they "worth it?" Yes to me, but obviously you don't need to spend that much for other options like MPP, and I appreciate that MPP (and KW in general!) has targeted a nice intersection of price, quality, and function.Also, to be clear the KW bits on the MPP's are in no way low end at all. If you compare the MPP KW's (or KW v3) to stuff like Tien's, in my opinion the KW's (MPP or KW v3) clearly look higher end (as they should for the price point).
The new Redwood FPX kit throws an interesting wrench into the value equation though. FPX for Model 3 didn't exist when I was shopping, so again not something I had to consider. You get all that fancy Redwood custom hardware (just red instead of gold), and Redwood's custom valving + springs, for actually slightly less than MPP KW's. (Though Swift springs are an extra cost with FPX.) How much is really scarified with the more affordable FPX damper? I really truly don't know. The unnamed damper manufacturer used in the FPX kits obviously doesn't have the reputation of Ohlins or KW. I trust that Redwood picked something with basic good quality, but if it were at the level of KW or Ohlins, they'd advertise the name... On the upside, in addition to all the Redwood custom goodness, the FPX support stock height if that matters to you.
But wait, there's more! Right around the time when I got my Redwood Ohlins DFV, Redwood became an authorized Ohlins damper builder and servicer. Redwood now does full damper valving and assembly for the Ohlins DFV in house at their shop. And yes that means they can do rebuilds in house now! Prior to this all Redwood custom Ohlins dampers were assembled by Ohlins USA, as mine were. Functionally there should be no difference whether Ohlins USA or Redwood themselves builds up the damper core. Either way it is being valved to Redwood's specs using official Ohlins parts (just as KW builds the MPP dampers to MPP's specs). I think the biggest reason Redwood pursued this is a very practical one: Ohlins USA has been VERY busy and overloaded in recent times, so Redwood's orders were often severely delayed by many months. Bringing the assembly in house makes Redwood less dependent on Ohlins' labor availability, with the nice side benefits of being able to do rebuilds and custom valving in house now.
Besides Ohlins USA, and Redwood now, there are some other Ohlins authorized servicers/rebuilders scattered around the country. I think Ohlins likes to tightly control who is authorized, they don't want random folks building "Ohlins" branded dampers. I can understand why, though not all damper brands are as uptight about it, but KW is in fact even more uptight...
For KW rebuilds (any KW's including MPP's), I believe the only official option is shipping them out to KW in Germany. Now obviously I'd trust KW headquarters to rebuild their own dampers, no question, but that is less flexible and I'm guessing a slower process (with the international shipping) than Ohlins which can be rebuilt in the USA, possibly even locally to you (depending where you are).
Also, the lack of any 3rd party authorized KW servicer probably explains why MPP hasn't pursued assembling or rebuilding their KW's in house - probably KW just doesn't allow that at all. Also, from what I've seen KW has managed to avoid labor and parts shortages during the pandemic better than Ohlins. I don't think KW has given MPP the same level of order fulfillment delays as was happening with Ohlins USA for Redwood's orders. And it does point to KW likely turning around rebuilds promptly (international shipping aside).
Are rebuilds even going to matter in the slightest for any of us just using these coilovers on the street? I don't know. I think it's worth knowing the options in the back of your mind, but I wouldn't worry about it. Ohlins are used as OEM on some cars. I don't know of any KW OEM applications but KW has a top notch reputation for street coilover reliability, I'd trust their reliability just as much as Ohlins.
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My god this is awesome.
At work right now earning the $$ for my car, but will POUR over all that excellent info this evening!
I have no desire to lower the car for looks…the form/function slider is all the way over to function in my world.
I’d love to buy you a beverage sir, SALUTE!!!
At work right now earning the $$ for my car, but will POUR over all that excellent info this evening!
I have no desire to lower the car for looks…the form/function slider is all the way over to function in my world.
I’d love to buy you a beverage sir, SALUTE!!!
All the stuff above aside, what actually steered me to the Redwood Ohlins was personal experience with Ohlins DFV. In our car shopping my wife and I tested a Polestar 2 Performance with its factory Ohlins DFV (part of its Performance Package), and we were very impressed with its suspension composure. Neither of us really expected much from that car but we were very pleasantly surprised. The Polestar 2 itself feels fundamentally less sporty than the Model 3 (P2 has more understeer, slower steering ratio, no Track Mode), but with the Ohlins DFV dampers it was vastly better controlled, composed, and even rode better.
I drove these sporty cars hard in our test drives. The Polestar 2 Performance stayed calm, controlled, and completely unphased no matter what I did to it. Whereas the M3P became a sloppy mess in comparison when truly pushed hard over uneven back roads. My wife, who is not into sporty cars or performance driving like me, still clearly felt the difference too. I even liked the Ohlins DFV more than Magneride in the Mach-E GT Performance Edition. (Though the Mach-E GT PE I tested over completely different and mostly unfamiliar roads, so wasn't as direct a comparison.)
So I looked if there were Ohlins DFV for Model 3 and I found the Redwood coilovers. (As mentioned Ohlins R&T didn't exist yet for Model 3, and now that they do, it's clear they're firmer than I or especially my wife would want for this car.)
When it came down to our car purchase decision, I didn't need to ask my wife about "coilovers" which would've been a big unknown to her. Instead I asked if I could put Ohlins DFV, the same kind of suspension the P2 Performance had, on the Model 3 if we got that one. She readily acknowledged the stark handling differences, and that we drive on such roads a lot, and agreed to the upgrade.
Now to be clear, on her own my wife would not be putting any fancy aftermarket coilovers on any car. Modding cars in that manner is not her thing. But she does like to drive fast at times (we blame driving Teslas for that
), including around turns when that's how the road is. So she recognizes the difference.
Now how does this experience relate to MPP KW's? It doesn't. Which coilovers would I like the feel and balance of the most if I had a chance to drive both? Would I even notice much difference between them? I've no idea. I'm sure I'd really like the MPP Sports too (aside from the required lowering).
Besides Redwood Performance Sport and MPP Sports, I am *not* certain I'd truly like any of the other coilover/damper offerings on the market for this car. Those two stand out to me for my taste/preferences/priorities. (Which is that I'm focused mostly handling, but I also don't want to mess up the ride, I don't want racetrack stiff suspension either. And I also don't want to be chasing any unsolvable suspension issues from a poorly thought out kit.)
I drove these sporty cars hard in our test drives. The Polestar 2 Performance stayed calm, controlled, and completely unphased no matter what I did to it. Whereas the M3P became a sloppy mess in comparison when truly pushed hard over uneven back roads. My wife, who is not into sporty cars or performance driving like me, still clearly felt the difference too. I even liked the Ohlins DFV more than Magneride in the Mach-E GT Performance Edition. (Though the Mach-E GT PE I tested over completely different and mostly unfamiliar roads, so wasn't as direct a comparison.)
So I looked if there were Ohlins DFV for Model 3 and I found the Redwood coilovers. (As mentioned Ohlins R&T didn't exist yet for Model 3, and now that they do, it's clear they're firmer than I or especially my wife would want for this car.)
When it came down to our car purchase decision, I didn't need to ask my wife about "coilovers" which would've been a big unknown to her. Instead I asked if I could put Ohlins DFV, the same kind of suspension the P2 Performance had, on the Model 3 if we got that one. She readily acknowledged the stark handling differences, and that we drive on such roads a lot, and agreed to the upgrade.
Now to be clear, on her own my wife would not be putting any fancy aftermarket coilovers on any car. Modding cars in that manner is not her thing. But she does like to drive fast at times (we blame driving Teslas for that
), including around turns when that's how the road is. So she recognizes the difference.Now how does this experience relate to MPP KW's? It doesn't. Which coilovers would I like the feel and balance of the most if I had a chance to drive both? Would I even notice much difference between them? I've no idea. I'm sure I'd really like the MPP Sports too (aside from the required lowering).
Besides Redwood Performance Sport and MPP Sports, I am *not* certain I'd truly like any of the other coilover/damper offerings on the market for this car. Those two stand out to me for my taste/preferences/priorities. (Which is that I'm focused mostly handling, but I also don't want to mess up the ride, I don't want racetrack stiff suspension either. And I also don't want to be chasing any unsolvable suspension issues from a poorly thought out kit.)
@excelsior13 Don't forget the MPP front lower control arm bearings. Very worthwhile for mid-corner steering response, I think. No NVH increase that I could tell from them.
Could also do the MPP front compression rod inserts as well while you're at it. MPP says they mostly help stability under hard braking, which I certainly try to avoid on the street, but I figure the improvement could be worthwhile if we need to panic stop for a deer on a windy road someday. Which is pretty likely.
Also, I've read that the OEM front compression rod bushing is a weak point / relatively common failure for folks who drive their cars hard, and the inserts might reduce its propensity for failure. MPP also sells solid bearings for it now that fully replacing the OEM rubber bushings, but they label the bearings as an MPP.R part ("R" for Race) due to propensity for some increased NVH. Probably the inserts make more sense for a purely street-driven car. I have the inserts, but mostly because that's all MPP had available when I was buying my upgrades. I'm an oddball who wanted pillowballs for my road-only car, so if I were doing it over now, I probably would try the bearings...but I think for most folks who don't track or autox, the inserts make more sense.
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jackmott
Member
Lowering springs are just absolutely garbage in every way unless ALL you care about is the looks. The car will get slower around a track, bottom out more often, wear your shocks out, handle badly. It is just bad. We people who say this come from having tried it when we were younger and eventually regretting it.
Hear us now, believe us later.
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