New: Riversimple Rasa hydrogen car

[WannabeOwner]

I enjoyed the YouTube about it by Robert Llewellyn

Couple of points I found interesting. You pay per month and per mile - bit like a mobile phone contract - deemed to a) be more "modern" than paying for a gallon of fuel and b) incentivises the supplier to work hard on efficient and reliability as they are paying for the fuel as well as the wear and tear on the machine. The car company is paying for the fuel cell on the same basis - "renting" it rather than buying / re-selling it.

From memory it was 15 horse power, deemed to be enough power for normal cruising (thus only about 20% of acceleration requirement). The intention is that the brakes are never used (except in emergency) and with separate motor on each wheel the regen braking would delivery 40KW - which is stored in capacitors. 0-60 was 10 seconds. Perhaps they will build a retro fit upgrade for Ludicrous mode to give it some eye watering acceleration, eh? Maybe there is something in having 4 motors (the YouTube implies that that gives the option for far more regen braking power generation, but I don't know if that would apply to, say, Model S if it had motor-per-wheel) and also capacitors - it seems to me that when a Tesla is 100% charged there is then no Regen available and thus then need to [remember to] change driving style, and also presumably storing in capacitors would have less of a duty-cycle issue than getting lots of charge/drain battery cycles (i.e. chemistry) from the Regen ... but my Schoolboy Science was a long time ago ...

But all that aside, I just can't see how we ever get to a hydrogen-fuelled transport system. Fill the tank with H2, park it at the airport for a couple of weeks vacation,and come back to a half-empty tank ... same thing with storing H2 at "Gas Stations"

EDIT: AndY1 beat me to it ...

 

[miimura]

Overall, I think Hydrogen as a transport fuel is nonsense, but since Fully Charged covered it, I decided to take a look. Like WannabeOwner above, I was intrigued by what was discussed in the episode. To me the most interesting thing is the business model. Their point is that traditional automakers are intrinsically motivated to waste resources. They try to make the most affordable vehicle (low up-front cost) that has poor running costs and relatively high fuel consumption. Traditional automakers and their dealers also make money on maintenance and repairs, so they are not motivated to make something that is durable and has a low running cost. Riversimple takes on the whole burden of the running costs and durability because they charge a fixed monthly fee plus a per-mile fee that covers everything - maintenance, repairs, fuel, and apparently insurance too. So, they are motivated by profit to make a more sustainable vehicle, both in durability and fuel efficiency.

Overall, I think this hold a lot more promise (and market acceptance) for a fleet vehicle like a delivery van than it does for private cars, but it was a lot more interesting to me than I thought a hydrogen powered car could ever be. Everyone should watch the Fully Charged episode above.

 

[S'toon]

So, they are motivated by profit to make a more sustainable vehicle, both in durability and fuel efficiency.

But it isn't a sustainable vehicle in terms of fuel efficiency. The "fuel" is electricity.

However, instead of storing that electricity in a battery, the approach of FCEVs is to take electricity, strip away the hydrogen element of natural gas producing carbon in the production, pressurizing it, and then shipping that hydrogen to a hydrogen station. Basically it replicates the problems with the gasoline ICE systems.

Then, you take that hydrogen once it's pumped into your car, and turns it into electricity via a fuel cell to turn your motor.

This is the opposite of fuel efficiency.

 

[WannabeOwner]

But it isn't a sustainable vehicle ... strip away the hydrogen element of natural gas producing carbon in the production ...

but surely that's only "now", in the future Hydrogen could be made using renewable energy (electrolysis from wind,solar, hydro electricity etc. or Hydrogen directly from Algae, and so on).

I could make the same argument about a BEV - I have PV panels on my roof, but my car will not be charged, at night, using them ... so in all probability, in the near future, the electricity that recharges my battery will be generated from Gas, Nuclear ... or even Coal ... so it's Chicken and Egg: Many people buy electric cars etc. and many companies start making Electricity from renewal sources. The two occur concurrently until, at Nirvana!, all battery & hydrogen cars are powered by energy generated from renewable sources.

That said, I don't think there is any future in Hydrogen - but only because of the difficulty of containing it in a tank (it will leak) and because it requires too much "effort" to prodce, compress and transport

 

[foob]

I love this. It's just so amazingly English. So many good, inventive ideas, with solid engineering, wrapped up in a warm bubble of eccentricity. Add the reliance on a hydrogen economy that never was, and I think it's clear that it's going nowhere but, like lithium-converted Sinclair C5s, there'll be a cult market for these in 30 years.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

but surely that's only "now", in the future Hydrogen could be made using renewable energy (electrolysis from wind,solar, hydro electricity etc. or Hydrogen directly from Algae, and so on).

Sure, but they're trying to make it happen now, taxpayers are funding it now.

When will there be enough excess RE to make a use case for generating hydrogen, a process that is highly inefficient, instead of sending that energy where it is needed to curb power generation from FF? Probably decades.

The money taxpayers are being forced to waste on H2 would be much better spent on expanding the "Smart" grid, and investing in RE generation technologies. It's a travesty that it's not.

 

[mspohr]

Does anybody know how much H2 costs?
It seems that every FCV has some scheme to hide the cost of the fuel.
I can't imagine it will be reasonably priced given the inefficiencies of H2 generation, compressing, transport, etc.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Does anybody know how much H2 costs?
It seems that every FCV has some scheme to hide the cost of the fuel.
I can't imagine it will be reasonably priced given the inefficiencies of H2 generation, compressing, transport, etc.

Yes, at the only station where you can actually purchase H2 in CA, it's $15/kg.

 

[mspohr]

Yes, at the only station where you can actually purchase H2 in CA, it's $15/kg.

So Yggdrasill said it takes about 60kwh to make a kg of H2 so already twice as expensive as electricity.
This source (which is very pro H2) says 1 kg H2 is equivalent to 1 gallon gasoline and will drive a typical car 81 miles (82mi/gal?)... so $15/gal gas?
Hydrogen Fuel Cost vs Gasoline

 

[JohnSnowNW]

So Yggdrasill said it takes about 60kwh to make a kg of H2 so already twice as expensive as electricity.
This source (which is very pro H2) says 1 kg H2 is equivalent to 1 gallon gasoline and will drive a typical car 81 miles (82mi/gal?)... so $15/gal gas?
Hydrogen Fuel Cost vs Gasoline

Well, the Mirai gets an EPA estimated 312 miles, and carries 5kg on board...so that's 62.5mi/kg. Now, that doesn't tell the full story because the Mirai is a hybrid, and contains a traction battery. How far could the Mirai go on H2 if you remove the battery...I'm not sure...but it'll be less than 62.5mi/kg.

 

[miimura]

I believe in the video, the gentleman said that the Rasa can go 200 miles per kg of hydrogen. So, it's a huge improvement over the Mirai, even though it's not an equivalent vehicle. Then again, that's kind of the point. A solo driver doesn't need a vehicle as big and heavy as a Mirai.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

I believe in the video, the gentleman said that the Rasa can go 200 miles per kg of hydrogen. So, it's a huge improvement over the Mirai, even though it's not an equivalent vehicle. Then again, that's kind of the point. A solo driver doesn't need a vehicle as big and heavy as a Mirai.

Well, the 200 miles isn't EPA, so we have no idea how that number was arrived at. The Rasa uses Supercaps and basically 100% electronic breaking...which is most likely how they're getting the 200 mile figure. It won't be getting 200 miles on the Hwy, in other words.

It's definitely more efficient, but that's easy to do when you prioritize efficiency over practicality and safety.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Sure, but they're trying to make it happen now, taxpayers are funding it now

Agree with all you say, and (as said) I'm not a fan of H2, but I think that throwing money (my tax-$ at that ...) at the problem, in the short term, is fine. Otherwise we just wind up with VHS ... or whatever the Petroleum Lobby manages to arm-twist government to agree to ...

We have plenty of other bonkers stuff that annoys me and most folk that I chat with, but I put that in the same "throw money at it for now" pocket.

We have large solar PV arrays on prime agricultural land (we are a small country, its crowded, I don't think we have prime agricultural land to waste); we are very happy to import our food and be at the mercy of foreign powers <sigh>, same as we are with Oil and Gas. But hugely worse than that are the anaerobic digester which (IIRC) need ONE HUNDRED times as much land (to grow the "sugar source"), per kW output, as Solar PV. I can't see any justification for those, except that they attract massive government subsidy ... but who knows, with a couple of decades of R&D hopefully some boffin will shout Eureka.

The analogy I would draw is that when recycling (household waste) was first introduced here we were given pink rubbish bags to put recyclable waste in. We just put them in with the regular, black bag, rubbish. I have no idea if they got separated out - our garbage trucks compress-as-they-go, so at the least it must have been a nightmare to sort through, but either it really was separated or people thought it was! Either way, it got people separating their rubbish. At the same time they started building proper recycling plants ... and then a few years later we were given separated rubbish bins for landfill & recycle waste. Hence why I don't think it is bad to be using H2 long before it is available from renewables, rather than waiting. It may take decades before H2 cars are any good at all ... but I don't think we should wait until renewable H2 is available, we need to start solving the problems with H2, and all the other alternative energy technology, Right Now.

Whilst my money is on H2 never proving to become the front runner, I'm not convinced that we can (physically) make enough batteries for all the cars we need, nor for all the other electricity storage - over here we are throwing (tax-$ !!) money at Battery Barns, on farms where large Solar PV arrays are installed. Haven't found anyone who thinks that is a good / cost effective idea yet, including all the farmser who's eyes display $-signs at the prospect of the subsidies!

 

[Gerasimental]

I saw one of these last weekend and must admit it looked pretty good in person! I was shocked.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

I saw one of these last weekend and must admit it looked pretty good in person! I was shocked.

You have odd taste

I think from a technological viewpoint it's very interesting. I also think it's not going to be competitive, and it's pretty ugly. I own a Leaf of course, so I know attractiveness won't keep everyone away. Cost will, though.

 

[webbrowan]

'@msphor Yes thank you for asking that question! I think if all other things were equal and let's just say that you don't have to buy a house full of hydrogen to make sure that you car has enough fuel to keep running, it would defeat the purpose if prices for Hydrogen aren't realistic for people. It would seem you would have to be rich to be environmentally friendly.