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Next gen Roadster

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Field weakening can let you triple motor speed for a given battery voltage. I don't know if they do field weakening or not, but that's relatively easy to do with a DC motor, if it's connected in such a way that the stator can be separately excited. But the rated RPM is probably not with field weakening enabled.

Not all controllers do this yet. In some cases it's hard to program correctly, in other cases you need extra hardware. For a DC or wound rotor synchronous AC motor, you need PWM to separately control the field strength. These are the easiest. For an asynchronous motor, you need a power converter to transform to higher current at low speeds, and for a permanent magnet motor it's possible to program the motor controller to partially cancel the rotor field.

I attempted to explain in more detail what's going on inside the motor/inverter earlier here and here.

This is the torque and power curves for the Fluence:

courbe-fluence-ze.jpg


They improved the motor controller for Zoe:

courbe-zoe.jpg


The second part of this curve is the ideal curve, and as close to the ideal motor as you can get. This is the perfect tradeoff between torque and speed, and it can't be improved mechanically no matter what you do.

The first part of the curve, where torque is constant, is what many want to improve by adding a gearbox. But if you can push the constant-torque region higher, then you can gear the motor taller - you only need as much torque as you can transfer to the ground anyway.

I believe that for a high performance vehicle, your money, mass and space would be much better spent by improving cooling, transforming down to increase the current, buying higher-current batteries, more motors, etc instead of increasing mass and using up valuable space by adding a transmission.

As I said earlier, there is another aspect to this, and that is efficiency. The efficiency peak of an electric motor is usually somewhere slightly below the first half of the constant-power region. Taller gearing will move it towards higher speed. That might not be ideal, as some range will be lost when driving at low speed. But the sweet spot is rather large, and placed at about 1/3 to 1/2 of maximum speed, so a car geared for 300 km/h would be close to the sweet spot at 100 to 150 km/h. Also, high speed driving is the most problematic for range, at low speeds drag is so much lower that range is much less of a problem.

But for maximum efficiency you might actually want to add a transmission, for example for electric trucks or buses. That would positively impact motor efficiency, but the gain is partially offset by a negative effect on overall efficiency and acceleration due to more mass and slightly higher transmission losses. Weight and space are less critical for trucks and buses.

Example efficiency map from this article. Note that despite the hyperbole of that article, the "substantial" efficiency gains are on the order of 5-10%, and no part of the plot except almost at standstill falls below the 75-80% bracket. The people at Vocis design and sell transmissions so they obviously want EVs to have one too.

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(how do I get rid of that attached image at the bottom?)
 

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More motors also increase mass and take up space. It really depends on where the limits are, is it the pack, is it the motor, inverter, traction?

Yes, but those add power, a transmission does not. You need a higher power battery pack too, of course.

For any currently realistic sports car, the battery pack is the limiting factor, as of today you can't have both high capacity and high performance. You can get around the maximum current rating of the battery pack by adding a power converter and increasing the power of the motor, or by adding a gearbox. Neither method can get around the maximum power rating.

Also, at 210 km/h in a Model S, you're burning off about 0.6 kWh per km, and range would be something like 120 km. At 300 km/h, consumption would be twice that and the battery would be empty in about 12 minutes. I don't see any point in gearing it higher until higher capacity batteries are available, and except for purpose built racers, capacity should be prioritized higher than power. Higher capacity automatically means more battery power for the same cell type.
 
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eledille:


Tesla uses 'plain' AC asynchronous motors - i.e. no permanent magnets to apply field weakening to.
What is this power converter you talk about?

You can do the same thing with an induction motor (= asynchronous AC motor), but in a different way.

The goal is to be able to somehow translate your available battery power into as much torque as possible. The permanent magnet and DC motors start out with a large torque but low top speed and power, and field weakening improves their top end. The induction motor starts out with a bit less torque but better high speed power, but also needs some sort of gearing.

An induction motor has a more or less linear relationship between current and torque, if you increase current by a given percentage, torque increases by the same percentage. The relationship breaks down when the iron cores saturate, i.e. they have reached maximum field strength. At that point, you have to increase the size of the motor to get more torque.

Frequency is linear with speed. There is also an almost linear relationship between voltage and speed. This relationship deviates a a bit from the frequency-speed line at low speed due to losses (somewhat higher voltage than linear is required at low speed). To be able to maintain a constant current (i.e. torque) when speed increases, you have to increase both voltage and frequency by (almost) the same percentage.

That means that you can gear the motor lower by transforming the battery power to a higher current than the maximum rated battery current, because at low speed you don't need all the voltage.

The roadster has such a power conversion device, and Tesla was able to increase torque in their existing design by somewhere around 50% in this way to make up for the loss of the gearbox. I don't know how it works, except that it's a high-frequency switched voltage converter of some kind.

I posted more details here.

Assume that the battery can provide 500 A current at 500 V. You want high starting torque and tall gearing, so let's say you need 1500 A for the motor. You can get your 1500 A by transforming the battery current to 1500 A at 166 V, and your motor will pull three times harder than your battery current alone would allow, but only up to the speed where 166 V is exactly sufficient to push 1500 A through. At that point, you will have to increase voltage and decrease current proportionally, and you've entered the constant-power region of the curve.

Keep in mind that the motor will spend a very short time in the high-current, constant-torque region, so cooling will be less of a problem than it might seem. This only happens at high power and low speed, and that situation doesn't persist for a long time for the cars we're discussing here :)

Note: I edited my previous posting to add a paragraph about power consumption and range.
 
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Thanks eledille for your very informative postings. I've learned something today.
Thanks, and you're very welcome. I just think electric motors are the best, most elegant machines ever, and I can hardly shut up about them even when I should :biggrin:

You're assuming the motor can handle that 1500 amps without melting, it might not be able to, hence the torque multiplication of a transmission might come in handy.
No, I'm not. I'm not trying to prove that Tesla could make MSP or the next gen roadster better by doing this, I think they're already doing it and have chosen MSPs top speed based on the fact that it will empty its battery pack in half an hour at that speed. I think spending money to get more speed would just be silly.

I'm saying that you can design your motor to generate whatever torque you need, there is plenty of space for that, and you can feed it as much current as it can take irrespective of battery amperage, and that this means that you don't need a gearbox. You can, of course, solve the problem with a gearbox, but I argue that you don't have to, and that electric gearing is better.

If they were to fit a DCT to Model S, where would they put it? I don't think there's room for it where the motor is currently located. If you put the motor in the front you would have to add a longitudinal driveshaft. Franz would be furious...

Image of Ford's DCT, supposedly particularly well suited to small cars, like Fiesta and Focus. To me it seems to be about as large as the MS motor.

Let's say we want to compete with Ferrari Enzo and Pagani Zonda. We gear it for 350 km/h and want to double the torque to get 3.5 second 0-100 times. If the motor can't take that much current and there isn't enough space for a larger motor, then we could steal some space from the trunk for the inverters and add a second motor, one for each rear wheel. That would also provide independent power to the wheels, so we could ditch the differential too.

It would certainly be a lot of fun - four minutes at a time :biggrin:
 
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Tesla already uses a transverse gear reduction unit, I think there is room to replace it with a compact two speed unit. I agree that a second motor would be the preferred solution if the single motor is maxed out, and the pack can handle it. I don't see Tesla using any other cell besides the Panasonic units for the foreseeable future, so I wouldn't count on a higher output chemistry for quite awhile.
 
I just think electric motors are the best, most elegant machines ever, and I can hardly shut up about them even when I should :biggrin:
Please don't. :) Your explanations are great! At some point you will reach a limit in terms of current handling - taking your theoretical example of 1500A - what kind of wire / electronics is needed to handle this type of current even for a short period of time? I guess if one can buy a 3000A controller, Tesla should have no problem designing one. But man - the wire to handle that type of current even for short periods of time probably needs to be as big as your thumb!

I know that manufacturers already use voltage boosters for bumping up battery voltage to something higher to improve high speed torque - your typical hybrid these days uses one. I wasn't aware that it was possible to do the inverse and lower the voltage while bumping up the current to improve low-end torque, but it makes sense. Good stuff!
 
You don't need 1500A, watts is the result of amps X volts. The Higher your amps draw the larger the wire most be, and cooling systems. By raising the voltage you can lower the amps to obtain the same wattage. This allows you to run smaller wires and produce less heat both in the Motor, and wiring. Voltage effect the speed at which a motor turns. And amperage affect the torque the motor applies. If you adjust the fixed gear ratio in the gear box you can end up with the same result as the 1500A but drawing less amperage.

The reason why TESLA went with a AC system is because they can vary the frequency to adjust output speed as well as output Horse power. But the side benefit is when you run higher frequencies you can operate on smaller wires then required for a DC system with the same out put. This is seen in Aircraft, they run systems at 400hz A/C, they can produce the same power out of smaller generators, wires, and motors. Resulting less weight.

High amperage causes heat

high voltage causes the electrons to jump increasingly larger gaps causing arcing, and static. Needing more insulation.

high frequency causes the electron flow to behave differently. At low frequency nothing nothing really happens, higher the charge travels off the surface of the conductor ( radar tubes ), even higher you produce radio frequencies, and so on.
 
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I'd also point out that building components that can handle 1500 amps puts you into a different range in costs, weight, and volume. 500amp IGBTs, probably rated 700 amps peak for longevity, are one thing, going to a 1500 amp component, probably rated 1870 amps peak for longevity, might be three times more expensive, not to mention all the other components.
 
Please don't. :) Your explanations are great!
Thank you so much! Wow, people are asking me to keep talking - can't pass up on this opportunity ;)

At some point you will reach a limit in terms of current handling - taking your theoretical example of 1500A - what kind of wire / electronics is needed to handle this type of current even for a short period of time?
The power electronics are extremely efficient and can be mounted directly on a liquid cooled surface, I don't think they will be a problem. The wires will have to be quite thick, but I think the Roadster motor takes up to 950 A, and the wires are surprisingly thin compared to the current they carry. The voltage drop is low (linear with current), the problem is the heat, which is proportional to current squared. To carry 1500 A continuously with a 50 °C temperature rise, you need a copper rod of approximately 3.5 cm diameter.

In practice you can get away with much thinner wires because you will only see maximum current in short bursts. Taking the Roadster as an example, it enters the constant-power region at about 5000 rpm or 70 km/h. It should get to that speed in less than two seconds, and from that point the current will drop.

Just to get some idea of how much a motor would heat up during such a burst I did some very rough calculations:

Assume the motor consists of 25% copper, 75% iron, weighs 100 kg and maximum power is 500 kW - a real monster. We send as much power as possible through it for two seconds from a standing start. Maximum power is impossible to get at first, only maximum torque, so assume that average power is 300 kW for two seconds.

Specific heat in J/(kg °K): Cu = 385, Fe = 449. Its specific heat would be 385 * 25 + 449 * 75 = 43.3 kJ/°K. If it's 50% efficient on average (i.e. poor) in the constant-torque region, it will heat up by (300000 J/s * 2 s * 0.50) / 43300 J/°K = 7 °C. Most of the energy will be dissipated in the copper, but some in the iron too (eddy currents, imperfect magnetization). I think the iron will cool the copper fairly effectively.

If 70 % of the heat loss is dissipated in the copper, and there is zero heat transfer between copper and iron (impossible worst case), then the copper would heat up 22 °C, which is not damaging, high temperature insulation can tolerate temperatures above 150 °C.

I'm on shaky ground now, but given an induction motor and a power converter, I suspect that the torque limit for short bursts is determined by magnetic saturation, and that continuous high power (i.e. very high speed or racing) is limited by motor cooling.

Anybody know how heavy the MS motor is?

I guess if one can buy a 3000A controller

That one should do the trick :)
 
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I have seen the Model-R target date as 2017 in a number of places. Is there a possibility of a Model S based 2 door varient earlier? It seems that there is a market for something that is not the "super car" competitor and would be a tweak to the Model S platform that would be easy to achieve prior to 2017 (easier in many respects to the Model X).
 
I wonder if 400 miles range would be possible
The model S went 400 miles using very little energy to propel the vehicle, with a smaller body roadster it would definitely take less energy to propel the car
i just wonder if Tesla would be able to fit at least an 85kwh battery in the next gen roadster
 
I wonder if 400 miles range would be possible
The model S went 400 miles using very little energy to propel the vehicle, with a smaller body roadster it would definitely take less energy to propel the car
i just wonder if Tesla would be able to fit at least an 85kwh battery in the next gen roadster

If the Roadster comes out in 2017 as people are speculating then that should easily be achievable. That 400 miles on the Model S was with the car driving around 25mph though. Batteries get more energy dense every year so by then, maybe they'll be able to get 85 kWh in a much lighter pack.
 
If the Roadster comes out in 2017 as people are speculating then that should easily be achievable. That 400 miles on the Model S was with the car driving around 25mph though. Batteries get more energy dense every year so by then, maybe they'll be able to get 85 kWh in a much lighter pack.
That would be fantastic, depending on the comfort level of the next gen roadster, long trips can be made with fewer supercharging stops.