TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

Nissan Asks “How Much of a Premium Would You Pay For a 150-Mile EPA-Rated LEAF?”

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by RobStark, Jan 29, 2014.

  1. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,898
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    In preparation for the launch of the next-gen (let’s say 2016 Model Year for now) Nissan LEAF, the automaker is trying to get a feel for the following:

    1. What’s the level of demand for a 150-mile version of the LEAF?
    2. What’s the right price premium to set on a 150-mile LEAF?
    3. Should we do 2 versions of the LEAF differentiated only by range or should the 150-mile version be the only one offered?
    Here’s the real shocker…

    When Nissan posed the “price premium” question to current LEAF owners, the highest amount listed by Nissan was…only $5,000. Zing!!!

    Read more at http://insideevs.com/nissan-asks-how-much-of-a-premium-would-you-pay-for-a-150-mile-epa-rated-leaf/
     
  2. gaswalla

    gaswalla P4201/85/airsusp/pano/19i

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2012
    Messages:
    1,190
    Location:
    San Diego
    it doesn't matter how big of a batter they offer if the batteries still degrade in the heat like the current generation.
     
  3. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,898
    Location:
    Los Angeles
  4. gaswalla

    gaswalla P4201/85/airsusp/pano/19i

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2012
    Messages:
    1,190
    Location:
    San Diego
    yes.. that's what they say... prior to this generation launch, they also said heat wouldn't be a factor in battery degradation. Fool me once, shame on you... Fool me twice...
     
  5. ggies07

    ggies07 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,248
    Location:
    Ft. Worth, TX
    Oh man, can anyone answer it or is it something they only sent out to LEAF owners?
     
  6. Kipernicus

    Kipernicus Model S Res#P1440

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,171
    Location:
    Belmont, CA
    I think this is interesting and Nissan should go for it. A $40k+ Leaf with 150mile range and Chademo fills in the gap nicely. Next step up would be $50k+ model E 200 mile range and supercharger access.
     
  7. RobStark

    RobStark Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2013
    Messages:
    2,898
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Everybody knew/knows first generation EVs are the 20 lbs $2,000 cell phones of the 80's. It is a little naïve to believe they would be as polished as ICE cars the first generation.

    Every EV early adopter is a beta tester. Whether you signed up knowingly or naively.

    - - - Updated - - -

    This particular survey is for Nissan LEAF owners but I am sure they are doing market research with other subgroups like Volt Owners, Tesla intenders, and those generally interested in EVs.

    But it is important to get a feel of what current LEAF owner thinking is, the people that actually put money where there mouth is and bought a LEAF at a Nissan dealer. Not just people telling survey takers they plan on buying an EV in the next three years or sometime in the future. A lot of those people will never actually buy a new EV, they just what to sound environmentally conscious and know what the "right answer" is for the survey.
     
  8. ggies07

    ggies07 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,248
    Location:
    Ft. Worth, TX
    I can see that, although I certainly will be buying an EV in 3-4 years so I wish I could give my opinion. hahaha.
     
  9. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    4,491
    Location:
    Maine
    Right, Nissan wants to know whether they could make two models or could just upsell one.

    But a big question to me is "Would we just have extra capacity or would you use it?" According to my favorite simplified relationship:
    Capacity ~ range ~ performance ~ charging current ~ 1/discharge current.
    That is, if you double the capacity you can:
    - near double the range (long range implies highway speed driving where weight is less of factor)
    - kick ass
    - charge faster (higher I and therefore higher mph)
    - expect somewhat improved battery life (although it may depend a bit on how much ass-kicking you do).

    My answer is that a solid 150 mile (e.g. Tesla 60kWh) is worth about $8k over a similarly equipped Leaf IF
    - that includes a motor and inverter that makes use of the extra capacity to enhance performance. (I drive a Prius, but it'd be easier to persuade Mrs INATM to ride in a BEV instead of her Volt.)
    - I can pay $2k/$2.5k later to join a national fast-charging network that's free for life.
    In other words, I don't really know, I'm waiting for the Tesla Gen 3.
     
  10. 100thMonkey

    100thMonkey Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2012
    Messages:
    914
    Location:
    Seattle area
    #10 100thMonkey, Jan 29, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2014
    hmm, I own a Leaf and I have not gotten this survey... though they hear from me probably more than they wish on their facebook page. I'm going to flip this around and ask, "can the Leaf survive if Nissan doesn't increase the range substantially, without raising the price?" Nissan so far seems too pleased with itself for being able to sell quite a few Leafs with it's 20ish kW's of range. we are now seeing the 4th year running without any change in capacity, just incremental improvements in efficiency. It would appear that they think there is a long term market for their 100 miles of downhill, back to the wind, range, something that is more like 70 ish miles on a good day and as bad as 45 on a cold, windy, rainy day. there are a lot of modest mouses around here who are willing to make this work for principles sake, but I think that market is limited and will be short lived. Seattle is one of their hottest markets, and I can tell you the mood around here is swiftly shifting as the charging ques grow long and their CHAdeMO plugs keep breaking. I think Nissan needs to offer 150 miles as the base and an upgrade to 200 miles to stay even close to competitive. the closer Tesla's E comes to being a reality, the steeper a hill the Leaf will have to climb. Tesla's charging network is hitting the ball out of the stadium. It feels a lot like game over for just about every other EV on the market, honestly.

    I like the Leaf, probably will have to Lease another one in 2015 when the current lease runs out, to get us into X/E territory. I do hope Nissan gets it's act together. I have to agree with the previous poster that Nissan really has a credibility issue right now that dampens enthusiasm. I was told, under no uncertain terms, that the Leaf had been thoroughly tested, near Phoenix Arizona, under extreme heat and that after 6 billion in R&D, that the dealer was absolutely sure the battery was up to the task. I live in a cool climate, so in a way it's no biggy, but the fact is, the battery can't handle extreme heat, doesn't even handle moderate heat all that well, and how that effects me is in the value proposition, the residual value of the Leaf is terrible! Along with having poor resale value, the market is going to require proof of the new leaf's "heat resistance" before believing the same story as before. Nissan will need to do another round of great Lease deals to get this new battery out on the road, then after a couple of years and lots of user data, people may trust Nissan again... but by then, Tesla will have likely eaten Nissan's lunch, unless Nissan does something major to improve the value proposition!
     
  11. constraint

    constraint Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2012
    Messages:
    131
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Tesla has really proven the concept of bigger batteries and liquid cooling. By having bigger batteries, your motors and inverters can be sized for great performance. You also have the ability to handle so many what if scenario (cold, need to detour my route, pickup someone at airport before going home).

    There are a lot of people (mostly in warmer climates than MN) that are happy with their 75 mile range, but the reality is that range is a major reason why the Leaf is only a niche. IMO 150 mile EPA range should be the base because if it was an option you know Nissan is going to keep the same 80 KW motor which will mean 0-60 times in the 14 second range when you double the weight of the current pack.
     
  12. ggies07

    ggies07 Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,248
    Location:
    Ft. Worth, TX
    Im being selfish here, but I hope Nissan can make it have at least 100 actual mile range for mid $20,000. If I cant afford the Gen 111 in 3-4 years when I need a new car, then im looking to Nissan. But if they cant, then Nissan is prolonging the adoption of EVs. Im not poor or cheap, but have a kid and a high mortgage with a long distance to work. So its going to suck if I have to buy another ICE and wait till 2025 to get an EV.
     
  13. DuncanWatson

    DuncanWatson Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    284
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    I would go for a 150 mile leaf and think it should be the only option in new models. If Nissan has this available in 2016 when my ford focus lease expires, then I will likely be a leaf owner.
     
  14. Rifleman

    Rifleman Now owns 2 Model S's!!!

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    936
    Location:
    Harrison Ohio
    as ugly as the Leaf is, if a 150 mile EPA range leaf was available for 40k when I leased my Volt, I would be driving that instead of a Volt right now.
     
  15. yobigd20

    yobigd20 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2012
    Messages:
    5,793
    Location:
    Skaneateles, NY
    I'd only drive one if they paid me to drive it. Reverse lease lol
     
  16. andrewket

    andrewket 2014 S P85DL, 2016 X P90DL (soon 100)

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    5,042
    Add liquid cooling and same here. I bought the Volt because there really wasn't another solution, not because I was in love with the extended range approach.
     
  17. TexasEV

    TexasEV Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2013
    Messages:
    3,760
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    The response is not surprising, as Leaf owners by virtue of purchasing the car have said a <80 mile range meets their needs. They should survey people who did NOT buy a Leaf because of its limited range, to see how much more they would pay for twice the range.
     
  18. renim

    renim Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2013
    Messages:
    449
    Location:
    Oz
    this makes the nissan's taxi NV-200 so much better...

    just a thought (84 + 210) / 2 = 147miles EPA range
    So its exactly midpoint between today's Nissan LEAF and today's Tesla S-60

    Nissan provides an honest Lease, always lease an EV if possible as the manufacturer owns the residual value and EVs are not liked by dealerships in general, particulary dealerships outside the brand. Ie a BMW dealership won't pay at auction for a used Tesla what Tesla supports the price at. Similary a Toyota dealership won't pay for a LEAF at auction what a Nissan dealership would, but a Nissan dealship might pay for a Toyota Corolla similar to a Toyota dealership.
     
  19. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
    Messages:
    15,848
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Exactly. I have a story that illustrates this point very nicely.

    A fellow I know started a software company some years ago. The first version was DOS and was very popular. Business was going very well.

    Then he got the idea that maybe he should write a Windows version. So he surveyed his customers. The answer came back as a resounding NO. Everyone liked the product the way it was.

    He thought about it for a bit, and decided to do the Windows version anyway. When he released it, his sales TRIPLED overnight.

    Beware of market research.
     
  20. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Messages:
    15,487
    For me it depends on the numbers. I wouldn't drive it for $20 a day.
     

Share This Page