Nissan Leaf

[vfx]

Or, like the bored US "Maytag repairman" commercials, they may find there is nothing to work on.

With all the delivery delays from the manufacturer, I hope they get whatever it is worked out.

 

[AndrewBissell]

On Monday I was called by two different car salespeople from different dealerships about test driving respectively LEAF and the iMiev.

It feels hard to believe we have reached this point. I am being chased by dealers wanting to sell me their EV product, just like they woud to shift a gasoline car. I have a choice of products.

It felt like a watershed moment.

 

[TEG]

With all the delivery delays from the manufacturer, I hope they get whatever it is worked out.

What I heard was that a Japanese subsidy is set to run out in the next two months, so they diverted most of the output to JDM (Japanese Domestic Market) until those credits go away. It probably doesn't hurt that they save on shipping since the one operational factory is in Japan right now. They probably want to push as many US orders as they can into the cars that will eventually come from the Tennessee factory.

(Edit: the above is an unconfirmed rumor...)

 

[benji4]

Right now there is a big battle to sell EVs in Japan between Tesla, Mitsubishi (iMiev), and Nissan (LEAF). Plus, the base price of the cars is way higher here to start out with because of the high yen so of course this is where you want to sell them now if you can.

Yes, the Roadster, even being a US car, has the lowest mark-up in Japan over the other ones. This is something that Elon feels passionate about -- people anywhere should be able to buy the cars at the same prices.

Roadster: $149,000 (37% premium over US)
iMiev: $48,000 (60% premium over US)
LEAF: $45,000 (38% premium over US)

I don't mean that Telsa is trying to sway potential LEAF buyers, but rather the race is to sell cars first so they can get clients the money back (and thus sell cars in the first place at these high prices). The LEAF however -- I have not seen a single one yet, either on the road or in a dealership. Definately they are having some production problems with that, it should have been here by now.

Mitsubishi here is stock with iMievs, you can probably walk into the dealer and drive out with one the same day. And amazingly, so is Tesla. Tesla has 2 new cars in their showroom, 2 demo cars you can buy, and another car or two in storage somewhere. They sell them as they can right off the lot, and then get more in. Not tons of sales mind you, but they are selling at a faster rate than the original plan of 2 cars sold here per month.

So definately the Japan cash-back plan is making the focus here right now. When that runs out, all the left over cars will probably get put onto a boat (or a plane as is the case with the Roadster!).

 

[benji4]

By the way --- no typo on the fact the iMiev costs more in Japan than the LEAF. You may be asking yourself why that could be.... The reason is partly government and coroporate kick-backs I think... you see many, many iMievs on the street, but they are being driven by big companies and government agencies as fleet vehicles mainly. I see one or two at least everyday, sometimes I see whole garages full of them. Something is going on there that is just not right, and if you are an individual buyer, right now you'd be getting a LEAF of course, but.... it's not here yet really.

When the LEAF finally does arrive in numbers (or even arrives?) I guarantee the price of the iMiev gets put more into range with market prices, what it costs to make it, and what it's really worth. When it first came out, it actually sold for about $60,000 and they gave the government just enough time at that price to buy a whole fleet of them then. It was dropped to about $50,000 around a year ago where it still stands, presumably because that's when LEAF pricing got announced and Mitsubishi wanted to milk a few more cars. That ends as soon as Nissan can get their car on the street.

 

[mpt]

Good review in the NY Times:

Feeling Empowered for One Oil-Free Weekend

I liked their quote:

The triumph of the Leaf is that it’s desirable on its own merits, regardless of what you think about carbon footprints or energy independence — no sanctimony required.

 

[vfx]

Goshen:

But the first electric cars were awful. They were selling for $100,000. Who's going to buy that?

 

[qwk]

Goshen:

That is a very ignorant thing to say.

 

[JRP3]

Yes that's surprising coming from Goshn considering he's such an EV advocate, though to the general public a $100K EV is not an option which probably was his actual point, not that the car was awful. Of course Musk did say the LEAF battery was under engineered so there may be bad feelings.

 

[qwk]

Yes that's surprising coming from Goshn considering he's such an EV advocate, though to the general public a $100K EV is not an option which probably was his actual point, not that the car was awful. Of course Musk did say the LEAF battery was under engineered so there may be bad feelings.

Yes, there is probably some animosity from that.

A few years from now we will all know if Nissan's battery tech is up to par.

It's going to be interesting to compare Tesla and Nissan pack longevity.

 

[JRP3]

Might be a difficult comparison since Tesla has a size advantage and will therefor probably have shallower DOD than the smaller LEAF pack in normal use. The Tesla pack should last longer for that reason alone.

 

[William3]

Everyone here seems to think that the Roadster pack will outlast the Leaf pack. I find it interesting that Nissan's battery warranty is DOUBLE that of Tesla's. If you guys are right then Nissan is in for a world of hurt. When is a pack considered "done"? 80% of original range?

 

[JRP3]

80% of original capacity is generally accepted as "done". To be clear I am not convinced the Tesla pack will last longer, I'm just saying it has an advantage with it's larger size. I think on equal sized packs the Nissan chemistry might be longer lived.

 

[qwk]

Everyone here seems to think that the Roadster pack will outlast the Leaf pack. I find it interesting that Nissan's battery warranty is DOUBLE that of Tesla's. If you guys are right then Nissan is in for a world of hurt. When is a pack considered "done"? 80% of original range?

Nissans warranty is very vague. It's going to be interesting once the car is a few years old and range gets diminished what and if they cover anything.

 

[JRP3]

I also think Nissan has hedged it's bets by specifying power output of the pack, not capacity. So range could be less than 80% of original but performance could still keep the pack free from warranty issues.

 

[JRP3]

GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS
The Lithium-ion battery (EV battery), like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual capacity loss with time and use. Loss of battery capacity due to or resulting from gradual capacity loss is NOT covered under this warranty.

http://nissan-leaf.net/2010/11/16/follow-up-nissan-leaf-battery-warranty/
Guess that takes care of their warranty issues dealing with capacity.

 

[Lloyd]

Well I guess they wont cover anything unless you can prove a defect. Can't park it in heat or cold, cant charge it every day...... Interesting Tesla insists that you keep the battery 'topped off' . I believe that Nissan needs a better charge controller.

LITHIUM-ION BATTERY
This warranty does not cover damage or failures resulting from or caused by:
* Exposing a vehicle to ambient temperatures above120F (49C) for over 24 hours.
* Storing a vehicle in temperatures below -13F (-25C) for over seven days.
* Leaving your vehicle for over 14 days where the lithium-ion battery reaches a zero or near zero state of charge.
* Physically damaging the lithium-ion battery or intentionally attempting to reduce the life of the lithium-ion battery.
* Exposing the lithium-ion battery to contact with a direct flame.
* Charging the lithium-ion battery full on a daily basis despite the lithium-ion battery keeping a high state of charge level (98-100%).
* Immersing any portion of the lithium-ion battery in water or fluids.
* Opening the lithium-ion battery enclosure or having it serviced by someone other than a Nissan LEAF certified technician.
* Neglecting to follow correct charging procedures.
* Use of incompatible charging devices.
* Consequential damage caused by the failure to repair
an existing problem.

GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS
The Lithium-ion battery (EV battery), like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual capacity loss with time and use. Loss of battery capacity due to or resulting from gradual capacity loss is NOT covered under this warranty.

 

[JRP3]

Tesla needs the pack "topped off" because that's the only way pack balancing can occur. With fewer, larger format, possibly more closely matched cells the Nissan pack may not need to be balanced as often, and undercharging actually prolongs the life of lithium cells. They also don't have to worry about thermal runaway so they don't need aggressive liquid cooling like Tesla. Most people don't have to worry about 24 hours in 120F heat or a week of -13F.

 

[EVNow]

Yes that's surprising coming from Goshn considering he's such an EV advocate, though to the general public a $100K EV is not an option which probably was his actual point, not that the car was awful. Of course Musk did say the LEAF battery was under engineered so there may be bad feelings.

Yes - he is talking about the mass market. BTW, I've noticed that Ghosn is not precise when speaking in English.

 

[evan]

That "fake valve cover" did slightly raise some eyebrows when first unveiled.
Whatever the motivation, Nissan responded that they wanted to make the car look "familiar" under the hood.

Nothing is new

Looking forward to getting a closer look at the Leaf!