Ontario EV incentives upped to $14K... and decreased to $3k for Tesla

[sandpiper]

Thank you for taking the time to send your online message about electric vehicles, climate change and incentive programs. I appreciate your sharing your concerns with me.

With a growing population and expanding urban regions, transportation emissions pose one of our province's greatest challenges in achieving our ambitious greenhouse gas pollution reduction targets. By making it easier for people to switch to an electric vehicle, we are taking an important step in our fight against climate change while ensuring our province remains productive and efficient.

As the issue you raised falls within the area of responsibility of my colleague the Honourable Steven Del Duca, Minister of Transportation, I have forwarded a copy of your correspondence to him. Minister Del Duca, or a member of his ministry staff, will provide you with a response.

Once again, thank you for contacting me. Please accept my best wishes.


Kathleen Wynne
Premier of Ontario

c: The Honourable Steven Del Duca

Let me translate from bureaucratese:

Thanks for offering me your two bit opinion. This was received by one of my flunkies, so please now allow me to assign said flunkie the task of responding with a form letter that is intended to feign genuine concern and interest.

Blah blah blah... generic paragraph about happy green stuff, love environment, climate change.

Please allow me to dump this into the inbox of another flunkie working for another department. Said flunkie will respond with another form letter in due course, expressing both interest and concern with very high levels of feigned sincerity. We hope that will make you go away. We know that you won't vote for us anyway.

Generic sunshiney closing.

N.O. Name Flunkie
Intern for the Deputy Assistant to the 12th sub-secretary in charge of walking Kath Wynne's dog.

c. Nobody who cares.​

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Let me translate from bureaucratese:

Thanks for offering me your two bit opinion. Although this was received by one of my flunkies, please now allow me to assign said flunkie the task of responding with a form letter that is intended to feign genuine concern and interest.

Blah blah blah... generic paragraph about happy green stuff, love environment, climate change.

Please allow me to dump this into the inbox of another flunkie working for another department. Said flunkie will respond with another form letter in due course, expressing both interest and concern with very high levels of feigned sincerity. We hope that will make you go away. We know that you won't vote for us anyway.

Generic sunshiney closing.

N.O. Name Flunkie
Intern for the Deputy Assistant to the 12th sub-secretary in charge of walking Kath Wynne's dog.

c. Nobody who cares.​

So funny and true....thank God for Twitter.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

I believe it should be an effective program-apply whatever poli buzzword you see fit.

Norway's incentive plan is effective. 1 in 5 cars sold are EV's. Copy it.

Any divergence from Norway's proven best practice must be "special interest" influence.

Norway’s Best-Selling Car

During much of 2014, Tesla’s Model S was Norway’s best-selling vehicle. Not best selling electric car, but best-selling vehicle overall.
Sales of the Model S have gone gangbusters since its introduction in Norway. In the year and a half since its debut, in the country that’s famous for hosting the 1994 winter Olympics and being home to the popular Netflix show Lilyhammer starring Sopranos veteran Steven Van Zandt, the Model S has been setting records—and pleasing thousands of customers.

Why Norway Loves the Tesla Model S

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Here's what happened in BC...so blatant it's disgusting. Check profiles on everyone in this tweet:

Blair Qualey on Twitter:

Christy Clark on Twitter:

CEV For BC on Twitter:

NewCarDealersAssn BC on Twitter:

Vancouver Auto Show on Twitter:

So both ON and BC incentives were suddenly and unexpectedly "enhanced" days before their respective auto shows.

Who thinks I'm a paranoid conspiracy theorist now?

 

[Duckjybe]

Here's what happened in BC...so blatant it's disgusting. Check profiles on everyone in this tweet:

View attachment 113721

Blair Qualey on Twitter:

Christy Clark on Twitter:

CEV For BC on Twitter:

NewCarDealersAssn BC on Twitter:

Vancouver Auto Show on Twitter:

So both ON and BC incentives were suddenly and unexpectedly "enhanced" days before their respective auto shows.

Who thinks I'm a paranoid conspiracy theorist now?

Well...you seem to really distrust politicians.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Well...you seem to really distrust politicians.

Actually, I've been very trusting of politicians-my TMC history will support that.

I distrust lobbyists...they are many and seemingly very busy at the moment in Canada.

My tone changed precisely with ON EVIP announcement, clearly excluding Tesla-then amplified with BC announcement, clearly excluding Tesla.

Add in GM et al. assault on Tesla in the US and I think we should all be taking a closer look.

Thank you for posting this - people forget there are other things going on besides the 'calls to action' in various states. Tesla does have a big picture plan and they're working quite hard. But in the meantime, we have to stay on top of the rapidly changing landscape in various states. Dirty tricks abound. And that's one place where owners can help a great deal. Tesla fully recognizes that without owners amplifying the issues in Indiana last week, the unacceptable amendment would have been passed instead of being sent on 'for further study'.

GM is about to open up attacks in some new states. They're not stopping their barrage. As soon as I can get more actual details, I'll share. (I would love to be a fly on the wall at their offices when this stuff is discussed .... I wish I could understand better their motivation. A few years ago, they scoffed at Tesla as not worth their time. Now they're focused on them. I seem to smell fear. It seems personal to them ...)

[oh hey, GM ... I see you there, reading this thread I'm watching you, too!]

Cheers!

 

[Paul Carter]

Ok... Posted in BC Owners. I hope Ontario Owners and other fellow Canadian's can help follow suit.

re-tweet this please.


MSRP cap not fair. Costly CleanTech needs incentives to make people leap into an EV. Don't prevent, it pays forward!

Tesla Owners Club BC on Twitter:

in response to CEV for BC @CEVforBC
Any #cleanenergy vehicle with MSRP over $77,000 is no longer eligible for the @CEVforBC incentive, effective March 2, 2016 @NCDA_BC

 

[beeeerock]

From Global on March 2...: “We’re also targeting the fund to people who need the support when they buy affordable electric vehicles, those that sell for $77,000 or less,” says Clark’s statement.

OK... I'm no economist or accountant, but I'm not as stupid as my ex-wife says either... correct me where I'm wrong... Buy a Tesla at $100,000. Pay PST at 10% (we're in the luxury tax range now!) and if Government gives a $5,000 rebate, they (gov't) still pocket $5,000. Compare this to a 'lesser' EV priced at $35,000. PST at 7% is just short of $2,500. Apply $5,000 rebate and government is out-of-pocket by $2,500.

If the rebate triggers someone to buy the Tesla in the example, they just offset the out-of-pocket loss to government for TWO smaller EV purchases.
When I've talked with Tesla Vancouver, I've heard them express their astonishment at how many trade-ins are Toyota Prius or Ford Escape etc... not exactly indicative of the 1-percenters the government clearly thinks buy the car. If the goal is to get EV's on the road and *replace* ICE, capping the rebate is hardly the way to do it. A Tesla will replace a daily driver for virtually all uses... a typical short range EV might work for back and forth to the office, but you won't be taking it to the ski hill or away on vacation - meaning it doesn't replace an ICE, but instead simply supplements one.

I'm serious when I ask where I'm wrong about this, because I'd like to take if further with government... unless I'm clearly off-base with my understanding.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

NEW THREAD RE: MSRP CAP TO ENTIRE TMC COMMUNITY HERE:

3/4: MSRP EV Incentive Cap hits second province in Canada (now in BC). Please help

I've retweeted.

Can't stress enough that EVERYONE here can help. Just a simple retweet starts to get the message out, even if you don't live in British Columbia. Doesn't matter. Help out our neighbors to the north.

Here's why capping incentives on MSRP is so wrong (if you're not already aware): Someone with a very high income will qualify for full rebates when purchasing a fleet of Leafs for their business - but the person who has scrimped and saved to buy a Tesla will not qualify for any rebate, simply because the MSRP is high.

A much more fair way to do it is income-based. Those who make less money qualify for more of a rebate. The more you make, the less rebate you get. Thats what CARB has done here in California and I support that. Heck, Tesla supports that. It's fair. It's equitable.

MSRP-caps are not fair or equitable.

- - - Updated - - -

And of course, if this is where you live - write your local newspaper, talk to your neighbors, and make sure to talk to your local politicians. The MSRP-cap on rebates probably made sense on first glance - help them understand there is a more fair way to accomplish the same thing.

- - - Updated - - -

Bonnie Norman on Twitter:

View attachment 113731

 

[Stephen4]

From Global on March 2...: “We’re also targeting the fund to people who need the support when they buy affordable electric vehicles, those that sell for $77,000 or less,” says Clark’s statement.

OK... I'm no economist or accountant, but I'm not as stupid as my ex-wife says either... correct me where I'm wrong... Buy a Tesla at $100,000. Pay PST at 10% (we're in the luxury tax range now!) and if Government gives a $5,000 rebate, they (gov't) still pocket $5,000. Compare this to a 'lesser' EV priced at $35,000. PST at 7% is just short of $2,500. Apply $5,000 rebate and government is out-of-pocket by $2,500.

If the rebate triggers someone to buy the Tesla in the example, they just offset the out-of-pocket loss to government for TWO smaller EV purchases.
When I've talked with Tesla Vancouver, I've heard them express their astonishment at how many trade-ins are Toyota Prius or Ford Escape etc... not exactly indicative of the 1-percenters the government clearly thinks buy the car. If the goal is to get EV's on the road and *replace* ICE, capping the rebate is hardly the way to do it. A Tesla will replace a daily driver for virtually all uses... a typical short range EV might work for back and forth to the office, but you won't be taking it to the ski hill or away on vacation - meaning it doesn't replace an ICE, but instead simply supplements one.

I'm serious when I ask where I'm wrong about this, because I'd like to take if further with government... unless I'm clearly off-base with my understanding.

I took the essential points (which are quite glaring) from your original post on this point and wrote a letter to the ministry.

 

[beeeerock]

I took the essential points (which are quite glaring) from your original post on this point and wrote a letter to the ministry.

Excellent! I've received responses from both Terry Lake and Todd Stone, saying between the lines that they don't want to be seen giving dollars to rich people. I'm crafting responses to both that also includes some good comments from this thread and the BC thread.

Key to this is:

1. How many people would buy a Tesla with, vs. without, a rebate?
2. How many people are stretching to buy a Tesla? i.e., don't fit the definition of 'rich' (whatever that is...)
3. How many people would buy (settle for) a lesser EV if a Tesla was out of financial reach? i.e., how many EV sales are lost outright due to the cap?

If the desire is to get EV's on the road, the cap should not exist. 'Rich' people need incentive to do good things too. Maybe more incentive... LOL

If the cap is to help people get into an EV who simply couldn't afford one otherwise, why is the cap set at $77k, above the full on luxury tax trigger (under $55k = 7%, $55-$56k = 8%, $56-$57k = 9%, above $57k = 10%)? If it's a luxury-taxed car, it should follow that a rich person is buying it. Is the cap designed to impact Tesla only, and help the usual suspects sell their cars through dealerships? The $20k difference from the luxury tax trigger to the cap is suspect at best.

By the way, what EV could be up in that range? I just configured a Volt and couldn't get it above $51k. The i3 seems to max out around $61k. Ah... XC90 PHEV starts at $74k. That must be the most costly dealer-sold car that needed to get in under the wire. Haven't seen too many poor people driving an XC90...

 

[Ktowntslafan]

By the way, what EV could be up in that range? I just configured a Volt and couldn't get it above $51k. The i3 seems to max out around $61k. Ah... XC90 PHEV starts at $74k. That must be the most costly dealer-sold car that needed to get in under the wire. Haven't seen too many poor people driving an XC90...

I went with the direct approach:

Ktowntslafan on Twitter:

- - - Updated - - -

Anyone catch this retweet from Elon today?

New Scientist on Twitter:

View attachment 114159

 

[f-stop]

If the cap is to help people get into an EV who simply couldn't afford one otherwise, why is the cap set at $77k, above the full on luxury tax trigger (under $55k = 7%, $55-$56k = 8%, $56-$57k = 9%, above $57k = 10%)? If it's a luxury-taxed car, it should follow that a rich person is buying it. Is the cap designed to impact Tesla only, and help the usual suspects sell their cars through dealerships? The $20k difference from the luxury tax trigger to the cap is suspect at best.

Agreed - I made similar point elsewhere about discrepancy between the luxury tax threshold and this otherwise arbitrary $77k cutoff which clearly targets Tesla specifically. If they're going to target "rich people", well they already have that other "luxury tax" threshold, and some of those other EVs would be excluded from the rebate too. So instead I think this $77k number is more than just suspect...

BTW, I just noticed in Bjorn's latest video, he reviews the BMW i3 and mentions that in Norway the i3 with the ICE range extender isn't eligible for EV incentives there (about 5min into the video). We all know how successful EV adoption is in Norway. Why is BC playing favourites, excluding Tesla yet giving incentives to other cars which still burn gasoline? Doesn't make sense if getting rid of fossil fuels is the goal (vs creating a policy that makes the politicians look good by not 'giving dollars to the rich')

 

[Ktowntslafan]

I went with the direct approach:

Ktowntslafan on Twitter:

- - - Updated - - -

Anyone catch this retweet from Elon today?

New Scientist on Twitter:

View attachment 114159

Everyone knows what's going on. It's time to call these people out publicly. We really don't have time for this greedy BS. We are cooking ourselves (8 degrees in ON today, Canada geese flying overhead). Check out these strings, use if you like:



Green Party Ontario on Twitter:

Steve Paikin on Twitter:

Glen Murray on Twitter:

Glen Murray on Twitter:

Catherine McKenna on Twitter:

 

[beeeerock]

It's extremely insulting that the XC90 is even eligible (shows on the January list - can't find a newer one). Sub-20 mile range on battery. Car and Driver said a 90 mile run with a full battery produced 27 mpg. Seriously? That's simply pathetic. It's not an EV... it's not even a PHEV in my opinion. Just motors to boost the instantaneous power. It's about performance, not economy or carbon reduction. Insulting.

And clearly not a program that's really designed to help the carbon situation.

I wonder when we'll see the new list... or if it's essentially the same as the last one, minus Tesla.

 

[Ktowntslafan]

I just came across this article:

New Ontario electric car rebates raise more questions than answers | Toronto Star

Same author here:

Ontario makes moves toward greener autos | Toronto Star

and here:

DETROIT ANALYSIS: Much green talk, little green action | Toronto Star

 

[Jaff]

The author is either not too bright, or has a poor grasp on the full effects of this ill conceived policy...

" These changes are positive – the government shouldn’t subsidize drivers who can afford a Tesla Model S or a BMW i8. That’s robbing the poor to pay the rich. "

The i8 I can understand excluding, as it's just a hybrid, and from an environmental perspective, a poor one at that.

 

[sitter_k]

The author is either not too bright, or has a poor grasp on the full effects of this ill conceived policy...

" These changes are positive – the government shouldn’t subsidize drivers who can afford a Tesla Model S or a BMW i8. That’s robbing the poor to pay the rich. "

The i8 I can understand excluding, as it's just a hybrid, and from an environmental perspective, a poor one at that.

Wait so you're telling me that the Toronto Star wrote an article about a perceived injustice and it's wrong....?

 

[Jaff]

Shocking, ain't it! :wink:

Wait so you're telling me that the Toronto Star wrote an article about a perceived injustice and it's wrong....?

 

[Ktowntslafan]

Somewhat promising tweet from Glen Murray...I thought some of you might like to reply to him:

Glen Murray on Twitter: