Outdoor HPWC Install Atlanta (Pictures)

[spesler]

For comparison sake, I have a 150A service and panel. They did a load calc in my presence using an app of some sort. They ended up installing a 60A breaker at the service itself, in parallel with the main panel. Photos of the panel and service breaker are attached.

 

[spesler]

He commented that there should be some sort of a buffer between the size of the service and the resulting load from the calculation, maybe 10%? The 60A breaker took me right to the limit.

 

[eprosenx]

For comparison sake, I have a 150A service and panel. They did a load calc in my presence using an app of some sort. They ended up installing a 60A breaker at the service itself, in parallel with the main panel. Photos of the panel and service breaker are attached.

Do you have pictures of the 60a breaker they installed? I am curious how they did this! Did you have an outdoor panel already or something at the meter base?

 

[spesler]

Photos attached. I believe it is called an “extra capacity” panel?

TE was originally going to rearrange the breakers in my main panel to fit the 60A, and I asked if there were any alternatives where we could avoid wiring inside the house. He said we could replace the service panel outside with an extra capacity unit. We checked, just in case I already had one, lo and behold...

 

[eprosenx]

Photos attached. I believe it is called an “extra capacity” panel?

TE was originally going to rearrange the breakers in my main panel to fit the 60A, and I asked if there were any alternatives where we could avoid wiring inside the house. He said we could replace the service panel outside with an extra capacity unit. We checked, just in case I already had one, lo and behold...

Oh, ok, so your main service disconnect is outside at the meter base. This is where neutral and ground should be bonded together. Your inside panel is then technically a subpanel.

The outside panel had space for several more breakers, so yeah, that is a great solution. Way better to pull it direct off that outdoor panel.

Can you take a panel of the sticker for the outside panel (specifications)? I suspect it is actually a 200a external panel (that would be the common standard).

 

[spesler]

@eprosenx

This label is on the removable cover for the service disconnect panel.

 

[eprosenx]

@eprosenx

This label is on the removable cover for the service disconnect panel.

Thanks.

Interesting.

That 60a is downstream of the 150a breaker. So do be aware you need to keep your total house load under 150amps (less for continuous loads).

In theory the worst case is you blow that 150a breaker and you have to back the HPWC (or the car) down to avoid that. But there is always the chance a breaker fails to open...

I suspect you will be fine. I hate cheap contractors that decide they can save $50 by doing a 150a panel va a 200a panel...

 

[spesler]

Thanks.

Interesting.

That 60a is downstream of the 150a breaker. So do be aware you need to keep your total house load under 150amps (less for continuous loads).

In theory the worst case is you blow that 150a breaker and you have to back the HPWC (or the car) down to avoid that. But there is always the chance a breaker fails to open...

I suspect you will be fine. I hate cheap contractors that decide they can save $50 by doing a 150a panel va a 200a panel...

Thanks for the feed back. This aligns with my understanding of the install. I’m thinking I will set the car (if I ever get it) to begin charging around midnight, so it will avoid any late night dishwasher or dryer runs.

My house was a rehab of a 50’s build, taken down to the studs. There are several instances of the renovator having done “just enough”, presumably to save a few bucks. At least everything appears to have been done correctly and to code, so I can’t complain too much.

 

[eprosenx]

Thanks for the feed back. This aligns with my understanding of the install. I’m thinking I will set the car (if I ever get it) to begin charging around midnight, so it will avoid any late night dishwasher or dryer runs.

My house was a rehab of a 50’s build, taken down to the studs. There are several instances of the renovator having done “just enough”, presumably to save a few bucks. At least everything appears to have been done correctly and to code, so I can’t complain too much.

FWIW I would not be too worried about your load at night. Dishwasher is only 120v so not a ton of load.

 

[MikeATL]

Since there's some experts on here, wondering if there's a way to tell what the Service is to my house from these pictures.

I am in a townhome and the main breaker is outside next to the meter apparently. Its labeled 125 -- is it possible my Service is only 125? Isn't that low? This is an 11 year old townhome with 2200 sq feet of finished space (gas heat, electric water, electric dryer.) This is the only panel I have and I've not added any breakers. The total of all my breakers is 430 amp, but I have no idea what my actual load is until an electrician comes out.

 

[eprosenx]

Since there's some experts on here, wondering if there's a way to tell what the Service is to my house from these pictures.

I am in a townhome and the main breaker is outside next to the meter apparently. Its labeled 125 -- is it possible my Service is only 125? Isn't that low? This is an 11 year old townhome with 2200 sq feet of finished space (gas heat, electric water, electric dryer.) This is the only panel I have and I've not added any breakers. The total of all my breakers is 430 amp, but I have no idea what my actual load is until an electrician comes out.

Yup, you only have a 125 amp service. The meter is a 200a rated meter, but the meter base is likely only 125a (would need specs on it to be sure). The wire into the unit is definitely not capable of a full 200a (I can tell just by the pictures). Actually, if possible I would like to know what wire gauge that wire is if you can figure it out safely (since it could only be like 110a rated but they were allowed to use a 125a breaker due to the next size up breaker rule).

Only 125a is very common for townhouse situations especially when you have gas.

Note that load calculations are not just adding up all the breakers. It is actually done based on the nameplate values of the devices and on the square footage of the home for general load.

Also, you have 125 amps at 240v. So that is 250 amps of pure 120v loads. Basically the 120v loads only count as half. So you can have two 20a 120v circuit or a single 20a 240v circuit and it takes the same amount of total capacity if that makes sense. The "double wide" breakers are 240v, then the single wide ones are 120v, and then you have some double density 120v ones that have two 120v circuits in a single wide breaker. So you only have five 240v breakers.

Can you take a wider picture of the sticker on the breaker panel door? Not all the info is in that picture. Also, a picture of the "schedule" of the panel (what breaker is what) would be helpful.

Basically you need to calculate the full load of the house with a NEC load sheet calculation (there are a lot of the forms online - I have not found one specific one I like). It is a bit complicated to understand what is what on the form exactly if you are not an electrician (and there is debate as to what counts in what category sometimes).

You are going to be somewhat tight though. I am guessing you have a range, a water heater, a dryer, and an AC unit as four of the five 240v breakers. Not sure what the fifth one is without seeing your panel schedule.

 

[MikeATL]

Only 125a is very common for townhouse situations especially when you have gas

I’m Gas Heat and Gas Range, but electric water and electric dryer. I have two 2.5 ton A/C systems.

Note that load calculations are not just adding up all the breakers. It is actually done based on the nameplate values of the devices and on the square footage of the home for general load.

I understand the sum of the breakers would never be your full load (or even close.)

Also, you have 125 amps at 240v. So that is 250 amps of pure 120v loads.

so, I have 125 amps on each 110 phase, but you would still call that “125 Amp” Service not 250 ?

Can you take a wider picture of the sticker on the breaker panel door? Not all the info is in that picture. Also, a picture of the "schedule" of the panel (what breaker is what) would be helpful.

Attached...

Basically you need to calculate the full load of the house with a NEC load sheet calculation

Understand that process..... I know you do this when you design an electrical system.
Is that what an electrician is going to do when he comes out OR can he just measure the actual amps with typical load running?

You are going to be somewhat tight though.

Really? They would have designed a new home that tight?

By the way, I’m getting a Model 3 and ordered the Wall Conector so I want the 60 amp breaker so I can pull a 48 load.

Thanks!,

 

[eprosenx]

I’m Gas Heat and Gas Range, but electric water and electric dryer. I have two 2.5 ton A/C systems.


I understand the sum of the breakers would never be your full load (or even close.)

so, I have 125 amps on each 110 phase, but you would still call that “125 Amp” Service not 250 ?


Attached...
View attachment 330830


Understand that process..... I know you do this when you design an electrical system.
Is that what an electrician is going to do when he comes out OR can he just measure the actual amps with typical load running?


Really? They would have designed a new home that tight?

By the way, I’m getting a Model 3 and ordered the Wall Conector so I want the 60 amp breaker so I can pull a 48 load.

Thanks!,

So to clarify: Both your oven and your cooktop are gas? So the circuit for your "range" in this panel is totally unused? That is good.

Yes, you have 125 amps on each 110v phase (well, really you have however many amps that wire into your panel supports - I suppose it could be a little less than 125 amps - I am not sure if they let you use the "next size up" breaker rule on main service disconnects). I would like to know what gauge wire that is. Also, that left size main wire insulation is not melted a little is it? Maybe that is just an artifact of the picture...

So if you overload *either* 125 amp phase then it will blow that main breaker.

An electrician should do the NEC load calculation. I know that in at least commercial situations if they can prove through past usage that a service is not overloaded then they are allowed to add more, but you need like a full year of data throughout the seasons... Just clamping on to your service for a point in time is not going to give you that data. I personally have a "Sense monitor" unit that gives me a year of history on mine. I love it! I typically recommend it for folks that have somewhat tight electrical capacity - it will give you a good idea of your real use.

There are rules about how much headroom you need to have for new houses (they require a certain amount of extra capacity). There are different limits for when you are adding stuff to the service panel (like you are), but when building a new house they want you to build in some extra capacity for these later additions. I can't say if your house was within spec when they built it - I suspect it was - though dual 2.5 ton AC units and a dryer and electric water heating and wiring for an electric range is all a pretty big load.

So I think you have the right goal - that is what I did for my M3 - 60a breaker on a Wall Connector. In your case, I would wire it up with a 60a breaker and sufficient gauge wire, but then depending on the load calculation results you may need to crank it down to a lower setting on the rotary dial in your HPWC. Then if later you manage to swap your dryer to gas, or your water heater to gas you could crank it up a bit.

If you can run conduit from your panel to the wall connector you can use 6 AWG copper wire for 60a. If you need to use romex then you will need 4 AWG copper.

 

[eprosenx]

So to clarify: Both your oven and your cooktop are gas? So the circuit for your "range" in this panel is totally unused? That is good.

Yes, you have 125 amps on each 110v phase (well, really you have however many amps that wire into your panel supports - I suppose it could be a little less than 125 amps - I am not sure if they let you use the "next size up" breaker rule on main service disconnects). I would like to know what gauge wire that is. Also, that left size main wire insulation is not melted a little is it? Maybe that is just an artifact of the picture...

So if you overload *either* 125 amp phase then it will blow that main breaker.

An electrician should do the NEC load calculation. I know that in at least commercial situations if they can prove through past usage that a service is not overloaded then they are allowed to add more, but you need like a full year of data throughout the seasons... Just clamping on to your service for a point in time is not going to give you that data. I personally have a "Sense monitor" unit that gives me a year of history on mine. I love it! I typically recommend it for folks that have somewhat tight electrical capacity - it will give you a good idea of your real use.

There are rules about how much headroom you need to have for new houses (they require a certain amount of extra capacity). There are different limits for when you are adding stuff to the service panel (like you are), but when building a new house they want you to build in some extra capacity for these later additions. I can't say if your house was within spec when they built it - I suspect it was - though dual 2.5 ton AC units and a dryer and electric water heating and wiring for an electric range is all a pretty big load.

So I think you have the right goal - that is what I did for my M3 - 60a breaker on a Wall Connector. In your case, I would wire it up with a 60a breaker and sufficient gauge wire, but then depending on the load calculation results you may need to crank it down to a lower setting on the rotary dial in your HPWC. Then if later you manage to swap your dryer to gas, or your water heater to gas you could crank it up a bit.

If you can run conduit from your panel to the wall connector you can use 6 AWG copper wire for 60a. If you need to use romex then you will need 4 AWG copper.

Square D is weird BTW... That door does not have specs on it for the panelboard like every other manufacturer. They must put a sticker somewhere else with the amperage ratings and such? Can you see one anywhere? Normally it calls out what kind of breakers you are allowed to use, what the max amperage per bus stab is, which ones can have tandems, etc...

 

[MikeATL]

Both your oven and your cooktop are gas?

No, only the range part of the oven/range is gas. Gas in the house serves the two furnaces, the range and a ventless fireplace. I wonder why I even have gas since I pay $20 in fixed fees every month and have almost no actual usage half the year.

if you overload *either* 125 amp phase then it will blow that main breaker

Understood

An electrician should do the NEC load calculation.

Maybe I’ll start working on that now.

I personally have a "Sense monitor"

Is a Sense worth ordering now and have ready to install before the electrician comes out? I was going to switch to the GA Power EV Rate Plan which penalizes me for peak summer usage (2p-7p) and I’m scared I could do more harm than good. I range from 1000 kWh to 2000 kWH over the year. Reviews on “Sense” seem mixed.

I can't say if your house was within spec when they built it - I suspect it was - though dual 2.5 ton AC units and a dryer and electric water heating and wiring for an electric range is all a pretty big load.

I also have two small wine fridges and one small freezer (none of which would have been in the Electrical Engineer’s original load calculations.) Almost all lights are now LED though.

I would like to know what gauge wire that is.

Is it written on the wire? How else would I be able to tell?

That door does not have specs on it for the panelboard like every other manufacturer.

There’s nothing else with writing, Is that maybe because the main breaker is outside the house rather than inside my panel? I can check with my neighbors who have the exact same floor plan to see if they have anything else documented in their panel.

 

[eprosenx]

No, only the range part of the oven/range is gas. Gas in the house serves the two furnaces, the range and a ventless fireplace. I wonder why I even have gas since I pay $20 in fixed fees every month and have almost no actual usage half the year.


Understood


Maybe I’ll start working on that now.


Is a Sense worth ordering now and have ready to install before the electrician comes out? I was going to switch to the GA Power EV Rate Plan which penalizes me for peak summer usage (2p-7p) and I’m scared I could do more harm than good. I range from 1000 kWh to 2000 kWH over the year. Reviews on “Sense” seem mixed.


I also have two small wine fridges and one small freezer (none of which would have been in the Electrical Engineer’s original load calculations.) Almost all lights are now LED though.


Is it written on the wire? How else would I be able to tell?



There’s nothing else with writing, Is that maybe because the main breaker is outside the house rather than inside my panel? I can check with my neighbors who have the exact same floor plan to see if they have anything else documented in their panel.

Yes, I would definitely start working on load calculations myself in your case. I have found most electricians and inspectors don’t really understand the formulas. Btw, you can register for free access to the NFPA NEC on their web site. You do need to check though what version your municipality has adopted. Some still reference older versions of the code. And most states make modifications to it so be aware there may be a change list of things they have modified at your state / local level.

I love my sense- but I think what allows me to love my sense is that I went into it not trusting that the machine learning would identify all my devices perfectly. That is/was a major selling point for a lot of people and I just don’t think it is feasible. I don’t think there is enough signal there. Now with that being said, I find it fantastic to monitor my real time power load from my cell phone. Very eye opening. Maybe $300 is a lot to pay for that functionality, but I know of nothing else that provides that ability (there are others like TED, etc...)

As part of a time of use plan: I would be careful as you have a lot of load with those two AC units. If you have a large enough charging circuit you can easily shift your EV use to super off peak times (you have to be able to charge fast enough to fit in the ofd peak window), but here in Oregon I don’t think TOU would make sense for my usage pattern since it is to a large degree air conditioning driven since lieterally everything that can be gas is gas. How many miles do you drive a day? (Determines how much range you need to regenerate each night)

Where I live, I discovered they have a new rule that would let me install a second meter just for EV charging that can be on Time if Use billing (while leaving my house on the base plan). I don’t think it makes sense due to having to pay a second meter base fee, but it is interesting. Probably not a feasible thing to do in a townhouse even if they had a rate rule that allowed it.

Wire size is written on the cable somewhere, but maybe not visible in the short exposed sections. An expert could identify the size just by looking, but I am not a professional. It is probably AWG 1, 1/0 or 2/0. Definitely is aluminum. There is a weird rule for residences that after doing all the load calculations you can then apply this other random derating that lets you undersize the main electrical wires by 17 percent (basically you do the math as if the load is 83% of reality). It is goofy and I am concerned that it no longer makes sense in the EV world (basically I think builders complained that they’ll main feed wires were way overkill and so rather than modifying the base load calculations they just created this exception rule).

I think the 75c column for aluminum wire is the relevant section here:
Ampacity Charts

As to instructions for your electrical panel: Maybe there is a sticker somewhere inside the main panel box? I don’t know, I have seen similar things on square d panels before. The sticker on the door is just instructions for the front door itself (or maybe also the wall box), not the actual bus bars themselves.

 

[larryj]

Oh wow, you have a very “electric” house. Is your heat resistive electric heating? Or do you have heat pumps?

That looks like a pretty modern panel (with afci breakers) but that is extremely odd that it is only 150 amps.

Can you post pictures of the sticker on the door so we can read specs and also of the panel cover removed if you can do that safely? I am curious what size wires exit the panel and go to the street. I presume this is the only electrical panel in the house? No outside panel or anything also?

Tesla may be very correct in heavily limiting the allowed speed.

Though I still would do a 60a breaker and wire if I could get away with it with the inspector. Then I would get a “sense” unit and monitor my actual usage for a year to see what the House actually draws.

Was natural gas not available when the house was built?

We have heat pumps, but they have resistive auxiliary heating (as I understand it). I do have natural gas, but only the fireplace and stove top use it. I have no idea why the builder didn't go with a gas water heater, dryer or oven. The house is 3 years old.

The panel in the garage is the only panel in the house. Attached are more pictures. Thanks for your input.

 

[eprosenx]

We have heat pumps, but they have resistive auxiliary heating (as I understand it). I do have natural gas, but only the fireplace and stove top use it. I have no idea why the builder didn't go with a gas water heater, dryer or oven. The house is 3 years old.

The panel in the garage is the only panel in the house. Attached are more pictures. Thanks for your input.

View attachment 331444 View attachment 331445

Wow, so that is fascinating.

Your panel bus itself is rated to 225a.

The inlet feed conductors appear to be at least 4/0 (four aught) aluminum which is typically capable of a 200a service. Can you find any writing on those service conductors to confirm this?

I would check with an electrician and perhaps the power company, but especially since that panel is only a few years old (parts should be readily available), you may simply be able to swap the main breaker out for a 200a breaker and then you can install a 60a HPWC circuit easily.

Note that you likely can use the 83 percent rule for sizing those main conductors since this is the only panel in a residence (hence why 4/0 aluminum is allowed for a 200a service).

Also in the future since you have natural gas you could swap things over to natural gas slowly if you needed to free up electrical capacity. So I would definitely run larger gauge wire to the hpwc and just crank the hpwc down if you have to fit under a load cap due to your service limitations today.

 

[MikeATL]

I love my sense- but I think what allows me to love my sense is that I went into it not trusting that the machine learning would identify all my devices perfectly. That is/was a major selling point for a lot of people and I just don’t think it is feasible. I don’t think there is enough signal there. Now with that being said, I find it fantastic to monitor my real time power load from my cell phone.

I bought the Sense. Its still in the box until the Electrician comes to actually hook everything up (unless I get brave enough to do it.)

As to instructions for your electrical panel: Maybe there is a sticker somewhere inside the main panel box?

So, I had an Electrician come out for a quote and it's not good news. First issue, the service to my Townhome is only 125A@240. Its pretty damn weak for 2200 square feet of finished space. In comparison, my brother's single family house is 1800 sq ft and he has 200A service. Granted, he as a few more things since he has outside areas, but not 75A worth.

Second issue, I have no empty breakers. Although the cover they used shows 4 unused breaker knock-outs, the actual panel is 100% full. However, even if I had an empty breaker, I don't have a lot of capacity, so we were talking about at most a 30A breaker for the Wall Connector.

Third issue, the count of breakers (including cheaters) is not supposed to exceed 24 (according to what the Electrician read from that sticker in the box) and I actually have 27. According to him, they shouldn't have built the house that way 12 years ago and he is unwilling to do any work for me unless that's resolved. He provided a quote to install a replacement panel at $4000 (including replacing all the breakers to bring them up to current code and eliminate cheaters.) Again, just doing that doesn't increase the service to my house, so I am still tight on Amps.

I am not really interested in charging at 110V. That might work most of the time, but I don't think I'd be a happy EV owner constantly worrying about that. If I'm going to do this, I'm going to do it right.

So...... Here's what I'm looking to do at this point....

I'm getting quotes to convert the Hot Water and the Clothing Dryer over to Gas. They both have Gas lines available nearby. A gas dryer needs still needs power, but it's only 6A @110V so it can share with the Washer. I assume any electricity for the Hot Water can be tapped from the adjacent Furnace connection. Upon doing both of these conversions, I would free up 4 breaker slots in my panel and 60A. At that point, I can connect install a breaker for the Wall Connector at 40 or 60A without worry.

I wasn't really looking to do all this, but its probably cheaper than $4000 for a new panel and I understand these Appliances will be more efficient running on Gas (also, the hot water heater is 12 years old and I was expecting to have to change it any way.)

Hopefully, all the other Electricians who come and quote this will not also demand that I replace the Panel.....

Fun stuff!

 

[eprosenx]

I bought the Sense. Its still in the box until the Electrician comes to actually hook everything up (unless I get brave enough to do it.)


So, I had an Electrician come out for a quote and it's not good news. First issue, the service to my Townhome is only 125A@240. Its pretty damn weak for 2200 square feet of finished space. In comparison, my brother's single family house is 1800 sq ft and he has 200A service. Granted, he as a few more things since he has outside areas, but not 75A worth.

Second issue, I have no empty breakers. Although the cover they used shows 4 unused breaker knock-outs, the actual panel is 100% full. However, even if I had an empty breaker, I don't have a lot of capacity, so we were talking about at most a 30A breaker for the Wall Connector.

Third issue, the count of breakers (including cheaters) is not supposed to exceed 24 (according to what the Electrician read from that sticker in the box) and I actually have 27. According to him, they shouldn't have built the house that way 12 years ago and he is unwilling to do any work for me unless that's resolved. He provided a quote to install a replacement panel at $4000 (including replacing all the breakers to bring them up to current code and eliminate cheaters.) Again, just doing that doesn't increase the service to my house, so I am still tight on Amps.

I am not really interested in charging at 110V. That might work most of the time, but I don't think I'd be a happy EV owner constantly worrying about that. If I'm going to do this, I'm going to do it right.

So...... Here's what I'm looking to do at this point....

I'm getting quotes to convert the Hot Water and the Clothing Dryer over to Gas. They both have Gas lines available nearby. A gas dryer needs still needs power, but it's only 6A @110V so it can share with the Washer. I assume any electricity for the Hot Water can be tapped from the adjacent Furnace connection. Upon doing both of these conversions, I would free up 4 breaker slots in my panel and 60A. At that point, I can connect install a breaker for the Wall Connector at 40 or 60A without worry.

I wasn't really looking to do all this, but its probably cheaper than $4000 for a new panel and I understand these Appliances will be more efficient running on Gas (also, the hot water heater is 12 years old and I was expecting to have to change it any way.)

Hopefully, all the other Electricians who come and quote this will not also demand that I replace the Panel.....

Fun stuff!

Yeah, 125a sucks for that much space.

So I missed that the cover had more knockouts than the panel had slots. Nice. Note that a 30a circuit at 240v might be just fine for charging your car depending on your driving patterns. It is a lot better than some folks have! I could totally be fine on a 30a circuit. You might heavily consider installing a 60a circuit, but then setting the HPWC to limit to 30a (24a really) and see how it goes. Then later if you swap gas appliances out you can just crank up the HPWC then.

So can you find the sticker that says no more than 24 breakers??? That was what I was looking for but could not find. Did he find one that is readable? The "cheater" breakers are supposed to have a mechanical interlock so I am wondering how someone installed them? Did they break out the plastic for the mechanical interlock?

My count of breakers does not quite make it to 27 (depending on how I count I can get to 26). This is why I want to see the actual panel specs.

Have you verified the wire gauge that feeds your indoor panel from the outside btw? I do want to verify we really have the full 125a to work with (not just a 125a breaker on a 115a feed or something).

Note that I am not sure that swapping a hot water heater or a gas dryer over to gas directly contributes 1:1 to allowing a EVSE. I would have to go look at the load calculation formulas again, but those units might have some de-ration applied but the EVSE may not (or different de-ration). But yes, I think you are on the right track here. I can't stress enough though how much I might take a phased approach to this. Get it installed on a 60a capable circuit, try it out, and then if you NEED more capacity then do the financial spend to free up capacity.

FWIW, the water heater sounds like more bang for your buck since it runs more often than a dryer and it is already old. The trick will be venting it outside if you don't already have a vent. Note that water heaters don't need any power unless you get the high efficiency ones with powered blowers. I refuse to get those since I want it to work in a power outage, though depending on venting options you may be forced into a powered venting system anyway.

Dead curious to see what your load looks like with the Sense! Though you won't actually get a good feel for it until next summer.

Especially since you are going to get a Sense I would for sure wire up the HPWC with a 60a circuit and then you can crank the HPWC up or down as makes sense. Especially if you make sure to always charge your car in the middle of the night... Maybe you have to install a 30a breaker for now to make an inspector happy, but at least run sufficient ampacity wire to later crank it to 60 (simple breaker replacement and dip switch change).