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P85+ in the real world

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I confess I'm disappointed in Car and Driver. I've always thought they had more journalistic independence from their advertising department than Motor Trend.

Their treatment of the Model S makes me think that's wrong: that whatever edge C&D had over MT is long gone.

Let's just say I don't think it's coincidence that once MT got good access to Tesla and Model S's that the Model S dropped to the bottom of Car and Driver's "must cover" list. I think every bit of Model S coverage from C&D is grudging at best.
 
I confess I'm disappointed in Car and Driver. I've always thought they had more journalistic independence from their advertising department than Motor Trend.

Their treatment of the Model S makes me think that's wrong: that whatever edge C&D had over MT is long gone.

Let's just say I don't think it's coincidence that once MT got good access to Tesla and Model S's that the Model S dropped to the bottom of Car and Driver's "must cover" list. I think every bit of Model S coverage from C&D is grudging at best.

To be fair, do you think that MT's coverage is positively biased because of the above as well?
 
To be fair, do you think that MT's coverage is positively biased because of the above as well?

That's possible but they've had great access to BMWs and Porsches for decades and have never voted unanimously for Car of the Year. The Model S was new so maybe access did biased them but they were one of many very positive reviews including Consumer Reports.
 
positively biased
Not to nitpick, but rather so I can be clear on your meaning....

Do you mean "clearly biased" or "biased towards the positive"?

- - - Updated - - -

To be fair, do you think that MT's coverage is positively biased because of the above as well?
And now my opinion... :)

I think...
  1. non-access to the vehicle likely results in some negative bias
  2. access to the vehicle likely results in no significant bias (unless your competitor publications are denied access)
  3. extended access to the vehicle for an extended period with cocktail parties, etc. results in positive bias (unless you overdo it and trigger the 'what are they hiding' reaction)
  4. advertising dollars results in positive bias
  5. absence of advertising dollars may result in negative bias (depends on the integrity and financial health of the publication)

For Motor Trend and the Model S, 2 and 5 apply but I don't the rest do.

(I think rcc is saying...) For Car & Driver and the Model S, 1 and 5 apply.
 
Yep. I've got a lot of respect for Cesare. Always have.

It's clear to me that the review/editor types at C&D like the car just like everyone else does. But it's also clear to me that C&D made a business decision to go with absolute minimal coverage of the S -- and probably because they're pissed off that MT got earlier access to a Model S than C&D.

As for MT being biased, I think what happened there was once the reviewers got a good look at the car, the "scoop" bells went off in their head. They had the best early access of any print auto mag and so were well positioned to take a "this is a great car, period" story, run with it and scoop the competition.

I'm pretty confident that the MT advertising dept was less than thrilled with the choice of the Model S as Car of the Year. The COY winner typically splashs ads all over MT for the rest of the year. (And years ago, a stain on MT's reputation was that their COY choices were influenced by the size of the advertising buy that the winner would commit to.) But Tesla doesn't advertise in print so MT probably saw their advertising revenue drop by picking the S as COY.

For me, this is kind of a sad episode. I've had more respect for C&D than MT for years. But MT just showed me something. And so did C&D. Now they're much more even in my eyes.
 
I had an opportunity to test drive a P85+ car today and thought I would post my impressions. First I'll give a bit of background - I'm not a track guy, but I have had some 'fun' cars to drive over the years and will occasionally push them when the conditions are appropriate, so I believe I have a sense of how 'Sporty' cars should drive on the street, as opposed to the track.

I've also had a Signature Model S since early November and have put on over 11K miles on it. Driven it on a couple of longer road trips and drive it around town as our primary go to car. I thought the P85 Signature (VIN #532) my wife and I had was the most awesome car I've ever driven, but after my test drive in a factory built P85+, I'm in awe of what Tesla has accomplished in the span of a few short months. When the website says '...our vehicle dynamics team was able to achieve the rare outcome of simultaneously improving performance, comfort and efficiency.' I couldn't believe it at first, but after driving the P85+ I believe it 100%.

The Executive Summary: Familiar yet different: Stepping into a P85+ is very familiar and comfortable if you already have a Model S, but once you start driving it, you start to notice the difference. I would quantify the P85+ car (VIN 11k+) I drove to be about 20% better than my Sig Model S. For me that improvement is about the whole package. The car feels more solid and put together than my Sig. The fit and finish is better and handling is noticeably better to me. The car feels faster and inspires more confidence when I push it and it feels more comfortable to me when I drive it normally vs. my P85 Sig. I would recommend a P85+ heartily to anyone who is looking for a car that can be a chameleon: One second it can be a big luxury Grand touring car, then instantly it can morph into a confidence inspiring street handling machine (note I don't say track-all-star as I don't think the P85+ is striving to be a small track sports car). If you have the available cash when you are buying the Model S, don't hesitate to spend the cash on the Performance Plus upgrade, you will be able to enjoy it every single moment you drive the car, even if you never push your car to its limits.

Now for a more lengthy review:

The first thing I noticed when I started driving the car was that it felt more planted and solid than my Sig. It's a subtle thing, but in my opinion, when I would go over bumps or road imperfections, it felt like the P85+ car absorbed them in a very compliant manner without any additional jounce in the car after going over the imperfection or bump. I'd describe it like there was very little after-vibration in the car. If I were to make a music analogy, the P85+ going over a bump it like hitting a kettle drum and as soon as you hit it, strongly placing your hand on the head of the drum to stop the vibration. The P85 I have is like hitting a kettle drum and placing your hand on the head of the drum with about 80% of the effort vs. the P85+. The vibration stops, but there is just a bit more residual vibration that is there. My Sig Model S handles bumps and imperfections very, very well, but I'd describe the P85+ as handling them masterfully.

When I put the car under heavy straight line acceleration, it felt rock solid. No waggle or torque steer, just pure power. My Sig is pretty solid on straight line acceleration, but it can occasionally have that wobble to it. It 'felt' faster than my P85. I didn't take a clock to it, but it may have been a psychological effect, because the car has very little squat in the rear part of the car under hard acceleration. The perception I had was that when I floored it, the car translated all its energy directly to the wheels and didn't have any flex in the suspension, so I was pushed straight back, rather than pushed slightly down and back like I am in my Sig. Whatever Tesla did to the rear suspension really worked!

On hard sweeping corners, my Sig feels like it has just a bit of body lean and some under-steer, none of that was my perception in taking the same corners with the P85+. The car felt like it was perfectly level all the time under all conditions. I didn't try to do any hard slaloming in it as I don't take my car to the track. I just drove it very hard in the real world conditions I normally would drive in and where I'd take a quick liberty and enjoy the ability of the car on a sweeping freeway on-ramp or a stretch of road that was empty. Under those situations, it was amazing. I believe there have been people who have said the Model S felt like riding in a mag lev train or a magic carpet; I think the P85+ really does come close to living up to those descriptions.

The suspension doesn’t give you massive amounts of road feel, but for my tastes, I felt the balance was just right. There is feedback, but I believe the Model S at its core is like a Grand Touring car and it leans on that side of the spectrum. But even with the P85+ suspension being more surefooted and confidence inspiring (I might say tighter feeling when needed); it doesn’t appear to give up any of the compliance and comfort that the P85 has. If anything, the ride is more comfortable than the P85.

I drove the car over a particular stretch of I-405 through Bellevue that can really be a rattler. Lots of little bumps and road imperfections to test the ability of a suspension to handle less than perfect conditions. The P85+ handled that stretch masterfully, better by about 10% or so vs. my P85.

Tire noise is about on par with the 21 inch Continentals I have on my car.

I didn’t ever notice the Traction Control light come on during my test drive. I didn’t try to throw the car around a lot and road conditions were dry, but in my P85, I do notice I get occasional TC engagement on the roads I drove the P85+ on with no TC engagement.

From an interior perspective, this probably applies to all the later VIN cars, but there were no rattles, no creaks, no wind noise (at least not until about 90+mph and even at 100+ it was pretty quiet). This car did not have the redesigned defrost vents. I also noticed that the headliner on the sides of the car seems to be different than my car. They seem to have flattened it out more than the Sigs, possibly gaining a bit more headroom on the side of the car. (UPDATE: I compared it to my Sig and it may be slightly different, but it's not as dramatic as I initially thought, if at all)

The P85+ is an amazing car. I think anyone who has a chance to drive it will totally lust after it, no matter what cars they have driven in the past. I give it a huge thumbs up and now I’m very sad that I drove one because I will start obsessing over how I can get one…
 
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ok, I survived waiting for my P85 and have been perfectly fine knowing that I will be without my MS for the next three weeks while the P85+ is delivered. Now I've read the first in depth review (tks Blurry_Eyed) and the process is beginning anew. I get the joy of waiting for my MS all over again and will once again enjoy that first time I just get the keys get to go for a 100 mile drive experience.

Thanks!
Bill
 
Brian... A LOT... Please do not ask how I know. Blurry is making me feel much better about my decision.

Here's the math for California:

$115K - New P85+
+$11K - Tax and License
-$85K - Sale of used P85
-$10K - Federal and state rebates on P85+
=$31K :mad:

If the suspension/tires retrofit can get you most of the way to P85+ handling, it starts to look "reasonable" at $13K. ;)
 
Here's the math for California:

$115K - New P85+
+$11K - Tax and License
-$85K - Sale of used P85
-$10K - Federal and state rebates on P85+
=$31K :mad:

If the suspension/tires retrofit can get you most of the way to P85+ handling, it starts to look "reasonable" at $13K. ;)

Assuming you took delivery in 2012 of P85, the math looks a little different in WA:
$115K - New P85+
-$85K - Sale of used P85
-$7.5K - Federal rebate on P85+
=$22.5K

That's assuming of course that you're over the threshold on last year's federal rebate (the details of which I've forgotten) for keeping your vehicle in service however long is required.
 
WARNING, READING THIS MAY CAUSE YOU TO SPEND MORE MONEY ON YOUR MODEL S!

Update: I did some critical driving in my P85 after driving the P85+ and I think I found why I felt more confident in the P85+. For me it comes down to this: I perceive less pitch, roll and yaw in the P85+ when compared to my P85.

Example 1: Under hard straight line acceleration: The P85 will pitch slightly nose up at first and then settle relatively level while under constant load, then when you lift off the accelerator it will pitch slightly nose down. I didn’t perceive nearly as much nose pitch up or down while under acceleration or while under regen. I believe that gave me a perception of more straight-line acceleration because I was pushed directly back into the seat of the P85+.

Example 2: Under hard acceleration in a sweeping turn: My P85 has a bit of roll and a bit of yaw when cornering hard. Also when I start to lift off the accelerator, the car rolls and yaws in the opposite direction it was going while under load and depending on how aggressively I lift off, the opposite direction roll and yaw can require a bit of attention to correct for. No real roll or yaw to speak of in the P85+. It seemed very neutral regardless of the accelerator position and that inspired more confidence in me as a driver. Now I don’t know if it actually leads to better actual cornering for a skilled driver, but for the average driver, I would say a car that inspires more confidence allows the average drive to push the car more and control the car better because it isn’t doing something you have to correct for plus it just feels more solid.

Example 3: Quick left to right turns: My P85 has roll and yaw that are apparent when doing such maneuvers. The car can be a bit like a see-saw (which some people have described as a float or wallowing feeling). Again, the P85+ has minimal roll and yaw under quick turns (at least compared to the P85). I felt very confident in the P85+ and not as confident in my P85.

Now realize that this is all relative. I feel like the P85 is a very competent handling car and I enjoy driving it tremendously, but now that I have a P85+ as another data set to consider, my P85 is no longer my reference standard.

I also think Tesla achieved a minimization of pitch, roll and yaw in the P85+ without sacrificing any ride comfort or quality. In fact, I think the lack of pitch, roll and yaw while maintaining ride compliance actually improves the ride quality. The additional movement that is in the P85 suspension causes the body to pitch, roll and yaw over bumps and road imperfections more than the P85+. It’s this additional movement that causes me to perceive the ride quality to be lower in my P85. I feel the car shudder and undulate a bit more over bumps and I feel it roll and see-saw more over uneven roads compared to the P85+. I don’t know much about suspension setups, so I’ll leave it to the experts in the forum to come up with the technical reasons on how Tesla achieved this, but achieve it they did and I’m impressed.

I could see how some might feel that the lack of movement of the car over varying road surfaces might make the car feel numb. But I think the car feels solidly connected to the road like it’s on rails and your steering inputs direct the rails in what ever direction you want the car to go.
 
Thanks a lot Blurry_Eyed for your review, on behalf of all the Noggies sucking up all info about the P85+ we can get.
I'm just so glad I couldn't help myself and crossed out for the P+ package when finalizing, even if I was originally just going to go for the P85 with the 19".
I knew I would probably regret more if I didn't take the P+, than I would regret going for it.
Now summer just seem so looong before we start seeing delieveries here in late July, August/September and onwards.
 
On pitch.... High speed bump and rebound in the dampers is typically used to control road imperfections. Low speed bump and rebound are broadly used to control pitch and, to a lesser extent, roll. People that really know what they are doing (Read - Mees and his crew) can tune out low frequency behavior while leaving high frequency behavior relatively untouched. There is some cross over but modern dampers do a wonderful job of seperating the shim stacks for different travel rates.

On the financial side, my math was a little better-
1st car $100K less $7,500 rebate or $92,500
Resale $86K for a net loss of $6,500
Cost of replacement $107K (despot from last year so no $2,500 price increase and no $3,500 up tick for 21s) less $7,500 rebate or $99.5K

Net $99.5 - $86 or $13.5K. That $13,500 net difference is subject to Fl State sales tax as would have been the case for the field retrofit package. The real kicker is that my previous BMW daily driver normally costs me $1 a mile in depreciation. With the current demand on the secondary market and the ability to make use of 12 pricing, I was able to make the swap for what I consider reasonable (if not cheap) money.
 
The P85+ is now claimed to do 4.2s 0-60. To get faster acceleration you need to transmit more torque to the pavement. A wider rear tire can clearly help with this, but then the implication is that the vehicle that Edmunds tested in 2012 was underpowered compared to the production P85 (or perhaps using a poorly tuned TC). If the cars theoretical straight line performance is the same with the Conti's and the PS2's then that's a problem.

Is anyone able to competently discuss the changes in performance and range characteristics we could expect with upgraded batteries?
Heavily snipped quote mainly to highlight one thing: performance DID change with the 4.2 (maybe 4.0) firmware update and better 0-60 was experienced directly by existing owners (me included). MT had Elon's car as their tester... he might have had a version of the newer firmware at that point while Edmunds and others did not.

The wider tires prolly helped a bit too. :smile:

Don't need batteries, don't need some weird gearing changes... just a bit better firmware to deliver the power to the ground via just a bit tighter traction control.
 
I was at the Fremont SC today (...yes, Saturday) to pick up my car after a service visit for a number of small issues, including an alignment to fix the slightly out-of-midline steering wheel. I happened to chat with a senior service tech there who is their alignment/suspension guru, and he shared a few notes/observations with me. Many of these are probably well understood and better explained by lolachampcar:

The car was/is engineered with rear camber (as are many performance cars) to keep us 'untrained' drivers out of trouble by limiting/reducing oversteer.
This rear camber will lead to more inside tire wear.
When you accelerate and shift weight back a bit, and the car settles down a bit at the rear, the rear camber increases, as does rear toe, increasing tire wear.
The air suspension, while nice, has the unfortunate effect of altering the suspension geometry depending on how high or low the car is at (and of course at what height you did the 4 wheel alignment).
When the car lowers at highway speeds, the rear camber and toe increase, with more tire wear.
If you really want the best tire wear, get the standard (not air) suspension, and don't drive like a maniac.
The P85+ will have better tire wear due to more suspension stiffness and less shifting of the car and geometry.

Side note: Since the Fremont SC is attached to the factory, they are asked to do projects more related to testing and production in addition to their huge service load. The senior tech I spoke to has worked on a couple of 'test' cars to do the P85 to P85+ modification/upgrade, to see what training/documentation is needed, if the parts/fitment are sound, and how long it will take. It takes over 20 hours of tech time to do the full upgrade, thus the big $$ cost. Interestingly, the Fremont SC has 5 Model S owners signed up ready, willing & able to do the upgrade (regardless of $$). 2 are original Signature owners with the sig red, and do not want to give their cars up in trade.
 
My wife just picked up her Model S, and while she was browsing the options I conned her into doing a P85+. Lovely car. I haven't had a chance to really wring it out yet, too much screaming and cursing in the right seat. But the time will come. I'd love to get it on a track to really see what it will do. It would be worth a set of tires to push the edge a little. Street cars, especially GT sedans, never compare favorably to race cars of almost any flavor, but it's fun to find the fast way around with the AC and sound system blasting.

Even on a relatively restrained shakeout I could feel how sticky the rear end is. She's gonna push. But that's cool, it will keep my wife out of trouble while she's channeling Mario Andretti.