Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

[Walta]

Walta,

There is absolutely no way you can phrase your request to eliminate BS if BS is the other side's goal. The other side will always posses all the information thus they can craft a response that passes the go to jail for lying test while still accomplishing all the desired deception.

The type of interaction you are describing (or hoping for) requires honest brokers on both sides of the conversation. This is why I am so bummed. Tesla purposefully wants to be this way even when called on the practices.

Very true Lola. Sad.

Too bad all these smart people at Tesla wouldn't use their brains to solve the design issue, rather than use their brains for deception.

Tesla please fix the root cause of the issue that is keeping owners from reaching the lofty goals you specified that drove the price so crazy high. We aren't going away. We will get the car we paid for.
I am just a project kid from Malden MA. I have worked very hard. Honest work. I value the dollars I have given Tesla. Like we all. No matter where we come from no one will lay down and get ripped off. Don't think this one trick pony you have created will suffice. Have some integrity and deliver on the specified car.

 

[allanfridstrom]

Tesla owners have noticed a change in the behavior of their cars, specifically in the performance models such as the P85 and the P90DL, where the performance of the cars doesn't seem to match previous or listed results.

User wk057 has done some pretty extensive reverse engineering, modifications, and looking into the internal systems of the car, including the battery pack. On TeslaMotorsClub what started as a thread about battery pack capacities not matching advertized amounts, rated amount of available energy doesn't even match the car's own reported energy, turned into a thread called Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits. This thread has kicked off a bit of a firestorm as these performance limits weren't documented or disclosed.

It appears pretty clear that Tesla is counting the number of Launches (done through launch mode), as well as the number of Wide Open Throttle (WoT) events. When those counts go beyond some predefined values the car will reduce the amount of power available in order to protect the drivetrain and ensure long term reliability.

The Drive picked up the story, electrek posted 'Tesla confirms that it limits the power of performance vehicles after too many launches with ‘launch mode’' and people are tweeting to Elon for answers:

 

[Zhelko Dimic]

Thanks @MP3Mike for the information I requested.

Early on when I was looking into Tesla - there were so many stories about Tesla improving their cars while you slept, through their updates. How cool is that I thought. After purchasing my car I was always eager to see what goodies were coming my way. Would they provide a surprise performance increase to rectify the 10.9 issue? I was certain that was coming.
Now I am never going to upgrade UNTIL someone provides a heads up as to the impact. Wish I could do that myself? Like Tesla should provide a "take it for a spin" period. Where the update doesn't get written to non volatile storage. You can try it out... then select execute update.

I am still quite shocked - that Tesla came up with this as a solution for counterGate? Didn't anyone in the room speak up with the obvious question "What the hell are we doing?" these TMC guys are NOT stupid. They are definitely going to notice you now reduced power during the everyday, high percentage use model. And you thought they were pissed off earlier? When only a couple people had their power reduced????

Who is making these bonehead decisions?

I can't believe I actually thanked Jon, for Tesla agreeing to remove the counterGate issue. I guess we need to be more specific when we request something?

Do you really notice performance loss without software tools? I think not.
And because of that, I feel current Tesla's solution is ok. Perhaps not ideal, but ok nevertheless.
As was discussed previously, 1600A was never a promise, and 10.9 is much harder to prove.

Should Tesla starts providing numbers that are conservative and can be easily achieved in wet, like Porsche?
Maybe.
If Elon was not a showoff that he is, and if he weren't wielding numbers and public obsession with him as a marketing tool.
But Tesla is a startup, out there to change a world, so grasping any advantage they can is probably ok.

Which leads me back to: I feels this solution is OK.
Tough crowd though. I guess lots of type A personalities would be ones to buy PxxD versions, and they want it the way they want it.

 

[Walta]

Do you really notice performance loss without software tools? I think not.
And because of that, I feel current Tesla's solution is ok. Perhaps not ideal, but ok nevertheless.
As was discussed previously, 1600A was never a promise, and 10.9 is much harder to prove.

Should Tesla starts providing numbers that are conservative and can be easily achieved in wet, like Porsche?
Maybe.
If Elon was not a showoff that he is, and if he weren't wielding numbers and public obsession with him as a marketing tool.
But Tesla is a startup, out there to change a world, so grasping any advantage they can is probably ok.

Which leads me back to: I feels this solution is OK.
Tough crowd though. I guess lots of type A personalities would be ones to buy PxxD versions, and they want it the way they want it.

Ok. So your basis is that you guess that I cannot tell the difference between a 486kw thrust and a 447kw thrust?
I can.
And what is WAY more important is Tesla sold me that performance for $13k.
When was the last time you spent that much money on something and didn't get it?
Would you complain or accept?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Hopefuly we can get an answer from @JonMc

Why?

Doesn't the result of his previous answer basically render any future answer meaningless?

Talk is cheap and for Tesla increasingly so.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Do you really notice performance loss without software tools? I think not.
And because of that, I feel current Tesla's solution is ok. Perhaps not ideal, but ok nevertheless.
As was discussed previously, 1600A was never a promise, and 10.9 is much harder to prove.

Should Tesla starts providing numbers that are conservative and can be easily achieved in wet, like Porsche?
Maybe.
If Elon was not a showoff that he is, and if he weren't wielding numbers and public obsession with him as a marketing tool.
But Tesla is a startup, out there to change a world, so grasping any advantage they can is probably ok.

Which leads me back to: I feels this solution is OK.
Tough crowd though. I guess lots of type A personalities would be ones to buy PxxD versions, and they want it the way they want it.

Unfortunately with your self-admitted entire net worth in TSLA your priorities may somewhat differ from people who bought a P90DL instead.

 

[Walta]

I want to share with everyone. I was a V1 battery P90DL owner. I became a V3 battery owner.

The V3 battery can deliver 10.8 quarter mile and 2.6 0-60. It is freaking epic.

Every P90D owner should have that car.

We all paid for it. It is well worth it.

Don't accept anything less.

 

[P85DEE]

Do you really notice performance loss without software tools? I think not.
And because of that, I feel current Tesla's solution is ok. Perhaps not ideal, but ok nevertheless.
As was discussed previously, 1600A was never a promise, and 10.9 is much harder to prove.

Should Tesla starts providing numbers that are conservative and can be easily achieved in wet, like Porsche?
Maybe.
If Elon was not a showoff that he is, and if he weren't wielding numbers and public obsession with him as a marketing tool.
But Tesla is a startup, out there to change a world, so grasping any advantage they can is probably ok.

Which leads me back to: I feels this solution is OK.
Tough crowd though. I guess lots of type A personalities would be ones to buy PxxD versions, and they want it the way they want it.

Translated:

"It's OK if you're getting screwed, as long as you can't feel it'.

 

[hostman]

I want to share with everyone. I was a V1 battery P90DL owner. I became a V3 battery owner.

The V3 battery can deliver 10.8 quarter mile and 2.6 0-60. It is freaking epic.

Every P90D owner should have that car.

We all paid for it. It is well worth it.

Don't accept anything less.

Agreed. Can you share the secret?

 

[Old Man Mike]

Agreed. Can you share the secret?

I'll second that. Or make good on the P100 battery upgrade option promised last year. It feels past due.

 

[davidc18]

I believe that both WK and Ingineer have stated that it is possible to roll back to 7.1 -

 

[lolachampcar]

Why?

Doesn't the result of his previous answer basically render any future answer meaningless?

Talk is cheap and for Tesla increasingly so.

This is why I'm sad.
I get that what they are doing is best for executing the master plan and, hey, that's exactly what they told us they were doing so why should we be surprised when that is their priority. I still wish for more but, as my dad used to tell me, you can wish in one hand and spit in the other then tell me which fills up faster

 

[Walta]

Agreed. Can you share the secret?

Why they exchanged my battery was... my rated miles dropped from 268 to 254 in the first 2 months. After a year of trying everything Tesla suggested, it went down to 244. Then the V2 V3 batteries came out. I was so happy when I heard the range they were getting, and then how the V3 battery finally broke into the 10's in the quarter. I called Tesla and told them Yay!! you finally fixed both the range and performance issues with my car. Please swap out my battery. Eventually after many months of extreme frustration, they agreed that my battery suffered worse than the "gradual" capacity loss the warranty states it won't support.
So I went from 244 rated miles to 273. Plus the performance difference is truly amazing.
Was truly amazing.
Since I have never used launch mode - and never plan to ( I don't like the feeling of the car catapulting on its own ).Since the counterGate release I no longer have that "paid for" performance.

 

[Walta]

I believe that both WK and Ingineer have stated that it is possible to roll back to 7.1 -

Excellent.... thanks @davidc18 ... I will PM them.

 

[St Charles]

I normally drive around in Ludi because I like the increased response. I am not getting full thrust because I don't generally charge above 80%. Even if I did charge to 100%, in my day to day driving I would only ever see about 460kW of thrust. It's my understanding that should I upgrade to the current firmware, I wouldn't experience any change with my current scenario. Is this correct?

Does anyone regularly set MB for daily driving? I can't imagine this being a good idea.

 

[Lbkmxp100d]

Tesla owners have noticed a change in the behavior of their cars, specifically in the performance models such as the P85 and the P90DL, where the performance of the cars doesn't seem to match previous or listed results.

User wk057 has done some pretty extensive reverse engineering, modifications, and looking into the internal systems of the car, including the battery pack. On TeslaMotorsClub what started as a thread about battery pack capacities not matching advertized amounts, rated amount of available energy doesn't even match the car's own reported energy, turned into a thread called Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits. This thread has kicked off a bit of a firestorm as these performance limits weren't documented or disclosed.

It appears pretty clear that Tesla is counting the number of Launches (done through launch mode), as well as the number of Wide Open Throttle (WoT) events. When those counts go beyond some predefined values the car will reduce the amount of power available in order to protect the drivetrain and ensure long term reliability.

The Drive picked up the story, electrek posted 'Tesla confirms that it limits the power of performance vehicles after too many launches with ‘launch mode’' and people are tweeting to Elon for answers:

Need to add P100DL to the list as well since my P100DL has significantly less power after 17.7.2 update. Prior 580kw, post 515kw and definitely a much less seat of your pants experience. Sux as I considered other vehicles but the power output of the tesla sold me on this vehicle.

 

[Walta]

I normally drive around in Ludi because I like the increased response. I am not getting full thrust because I don't generally charge above 80%. Even if I did charge to 100%, in my day to day driving I would only ever see about 460kW of thrust. It's my understanding that should I upgrade to the current firmware, I wouldn't experience any change with my current scenario. Is this correct?

Does anyone regularly set MB for daily driving? I can't imagine this being a good idea.

I used to select MB every time I used the car. Because I tested it out for Old Man Mike and found that just turning MB ON boosted my power by 20kw. I didn't even have to wait for it to say READY.
Since the counterGate fix release, that 20kw boost is no longer happening. So I don't do it anymore.

 

[St Charles]

I used to select MB every time I used the car. Because I tested it out for Old Man Mike and found that just turning MB ON boosted my power by 20kw. I didn't even have to wait for it to say READY.
Since the counterGate fix release, that 20kw boost is no longer happening. So I don't do it anymore.

waitwaitwait...you used MB every time? How many miles did you have on that battery when you warranty replaced it?

 

[Walta]

Just wanted to share some more information.

I just got off the phone with my SA. And as I stated earlier - when I emailed him about the current power loss issue, he basically stated that he thought the recent release was only providing enhancements to the car.
When we spoke he again stated that max power was not coupled to LM. I explained the test results from other owners, where only when they used MB and LM did the car report the expected max power level. He again stated that that is not how it works. So he agreed to investigate about MB and LM, as well as check my logs to see why I lost 36kw of power. He assured me that if the car was not as expected he would take steps to get it there. He has been awesome for me... Tesla should let him run the whole shebang.
He expects it will take till middle of next week for his response.
I sure hope this is all just a huge screw up in their implementing the counterGate fix... like say....

// Commented out for test purposes only X = 0%
X = 9 // Verifying power control circuit

if ( MB & LM )
Execute FULL Power
else
reduce power X%

 

[Walta]

waitwaitwait...you used MB every time? How many miles did you have on that battery when you warranty replaced it?

When they replaced my V1 battery it had about 20K miles ish. I didn't use MB very often with that battery.Because it didn't provide any instant power boost.
I was using MB every time with my new V3 battery to always have the 20kw boost. I stopped when the new release stopped providing the boost.
My goal is to be in the best possible race conditions at all times, in case I run into any predators. My commute is only 20 minutes, so I hardly ever get to MB READY. When I get to work, I shut MB off. Then back ON when departing.