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Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

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Either way, high SoC, high temps, and high amp draw are probably still just as bad for our car batteries as they are for other types of Li-Ion.

While I agree with your overall statement I disagree with this part. Different lithium chemistries have different operating characteristics and parameters. So while I would not recommend always using MB the jury is still out on it's actual long term effects, i.e. how bad it really is. Tesla had to know that some people would use MB extensively.
 
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While I agree with your overall statement I disagree with this part. Different lithium chemistries have different operating characteristics and parameters. So while I would not recommend always using MB the jury is still out on it's actual long term effects, i.e. how bad it really is. Tesla had to know that some people would use MB extensively.

Power reductions and warranty replaced packs after the most recent update would say that the fundamentals of Li-Ion still apply. Pack heating and cooling actions further support these assumptions. Either way, I agree Tesla does certainly know and I'd bet this knowledge factored into their current decisions. Make it hard to do the wrong thing and easy to do the right.
 
I went to Fontana dragstrip today with my P85DL to compare times from 5 months ago. I only got 3 runs in because there were so many participants. My first run at 94% was 11.544 @ 116.84 using slip mode but a lot of wheelspin. My second run with Launch Mode was 11.596 @ 116.37 at 91% with no slip. My third run at 88% was the quickest, 11.513 @ 114.53 with slip mode. Five months ago my best was 11.374 @ 117.04 at 95% using slip mode. My conclusion is that Launch Mode did not increase my power. I think my first run could have been quicker but I had too much wheelspin. The speed was almost as fast as 5 months ago before the new software update indicating my power has not been cut. My car has 29,000 miles so maybe the battery is getting weaker.

To my surprise Shotgun from San Diego also showed up with his P90DL v2 and did 11.28 with wheelspin with slip mode. His second run with Launch Mode was slower and only got 465kw. When he got home he made more tests and confirmed that he got 20+ more kw in launch mode than slip start. He got 495kw at 98% but could not get over 470kw without going into launch mode.

As a side note about nine months ago at the Auto Club Famoso Raceway near Bakersfield,CA my best was 11.224 @ 119 and Shotgun did 11.105 @ 120.390.
 
Once in a great while porsche or lotus or Ferrari or vet or Lamborghini or Mercedes.
As a long term serial Lotus owner, none would stand a chance against even a power limited P85D up to 100. My current Exige is running 350 hp, and getting that down from standstill is not easy.

But that's missing the point of the car ;)

If someone blasted me from the lights in a Model S whil I was in the Lotus, I'd just smile as I looked forward to the next track day :p
 
Bill you just prompted me to check the market, you could probably import one now for less than an upgrade to the 100 pack if you miss it that much ;)

I'm in the market for a new track-only toy at the moment, and actually an Elan could work, especially as it would eligible for a lot of the classic race series we have here... hmm.

Blasted TMC it always seems to get me to spend money :D
 
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Running around with MB on? And telling people about it? No one wants to buy that car now... Poor poor battery :/
Yes. I totally agree.
If at the time of purchase I was made aware that I would need to put the battery into a Max Battery mode when I wanted ludicrous acceleration. And oh by the way doing so would shorten battery life or cause other issues? And along with that now Tesla has added the LM requirement? I would not have bought the ludicrous mode update. I would have much preferred getting insane mode with the only requirement for getting the expected performance was to select insane mode.
But Tesla was very clear in the advertising as well as vocally that by simply selecting ludicrous mode was all that was required. And I was told from day one to drive the car anyway I like. Enjoy the performance. Telling me it was not like ICE cars.
Boy have we come a long way from that story to get where we are now.
But since Tesla won't repurchase my car. I will always drive the car in whatever the max power mode is. Which at the moment I won't do. Cause I don't want to use LM. I want it back like it was before the counter gate fix. Only minus the counter gate issue. Only.
I can deal with the extra step each ride of selecting MB.
 
You are just ... the most impractical person. Everyone has explained to you why you are way off-base, but you persist with the same tired assertions. @lolachampcar is correct - the product was changed after sale, multiple times. For the better, people will accept. For the worse, you are going to have a riot. In any industry.

That isn't an explanation. That is just a foot stamping assertion with no reason or facts or evidence or intelligent analysis.

The change is only "worse" if you look at the single dimension of power output under certain circumstances as the only dimension. And even that is relatively minor negative change.

The change was probably "for the better" if you look at other dimensions such as Mean Time To Failure, expected owner costs for maintenance and repairs post-warranty, owner time lost and inconvenience for leaving cars at service centers for work that could have been avoided if power output was managed differently. Looking at those dimensions and many other dimensions, the changes are for the better. In the aggregate the change is a trade-off.


Advertised specs induce sales and have consequences. Manufacturers of all stripes who falsely advertise are subject to bad press at best, litigation at worst and many unfavorable things in between.

What is the specific advertising (screen shot or quote) that is at issue that you claim was deceptive? or made deceptive by the software changes to power delivery?

It is a fair point that Tesla must comply with federal Truth In Advertising | Federal Trade Commission and equivalent state laws -- knowing a bit about that, and without getting into details, I'm comfortable that they have complied.

Making engineering trade-offs that limit performance (or its accessibility) in relatively minor ways while still meeting the actual published marketing specs =/ deceptive advertising

There is a vigorous and aggressive plaintiffs bar that enforces that area -- especially with autos -- and I don't see a significant risk of noncompliance or liability exposure. Just as with product liability claims though there may eventually be a nuisance suit which will be dismissed or settled by buying off the attys.

But someone who feels strongly that they have been seriously deceived and thereby harmed (what are the damage$?) and are truly suffering from a product that doesn't meet promised advertising and marketing claims, I would encourage to engage an atty to educate them on these issues.

I don't see a basis to attribute ill-will or evil intention to the Tesla engineers and their software design choices for the updates. They will make mistakes, or, put another way, find a better way, to implement improvements. And overall the changes have been vastly for the better.

Make it hard to do the wrong thing and easy to do the right.

This what it is all about it. How they implement this is what causes debate. More information as to what exactly is the wrong thing, and at what dose/use level would be more helpful for Tesla to share.

Did I pay extra for Ludicrous on my P85D for nothing

No. Mine is still as fast as ever. Says power tools and buttmeter. But I didn't use LM more than a couple dozen times, and not use MBP more than ~100.

I tried not to redline my ICEs much either. Or push the nitrous button too often. Seems like the same common sense to me.

My third run at 88% was the quickest, 11.513 @ 114.53 with slip mode.

There is this interesting trend where in some cases ET goes down as SOC goes down. Suggesting something may be off with that big SOC/power chart that suggests otherwise.

I wonder if has to do with an increasing batt temp from earlier runs heating you the batt above mere MBP level but not yet to where the batt cooling kicks in. And it is enough to make up for the lower SOC and allows even faster runs at lower SOC.
 
That isn't an explanation. That is just a foot stamping assertion with no reason or facts or evidence or intelligent analysis.

The change is only "worse" if you look at the single dimension of power output under certain circumstances as the only dimension. And even that is relatively minor negative change.

The change was probably "for the better" if you look at other dimensions such as Mean Time To Failure, expected owner costs for maintenance and repairs post-warranty, owner time lost and inconvenience for leaving cars at service centers for work that could have been avoided if power output was managed differently. Looking at those dimensions and many other dimensions, the changes are for the better. In the aggregate the change is a trade-off.
The assertion is made based upon the totality of the evidence. You are expert at looking past the data and making these tenuous assertions that things are so muddled. They really aren't. We have lots of data, a good amount of knowledge, and common sense.

Power output is a marketed value, MTTF is not. If you change power output, which has never been successfully pulled off by any OEM, you get in a lot of trouble and the same is happening here. Just because you drive like a grandma doesn't mean you get to judge those of us who actually intend to get performance out of a performance car.
 
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WRT the poster in question-

If I can not understand the logic or see the reasoning behind the posts, I most certainly can not take as truth the poster's driving habits or even ownership itself. I'm not saying those things are not true, only that I have no reason to believe they are. Put differently, the evidence does not point to a conclusion :)
 
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Most often BMW M series of any kind. Once in a great while porsche or lotus or Ferrari or vet or Lamborghini or Mercedes.

Prius hourly.
Another thing that happens is races with motorcycles. In CA they can split cars... and move to the front of the line at a light. So if I happen to be in front - I will take on the bike. The Enterprise (my P90DL) is undefeated so far. The best part is every single motorcycle that raced and lost - all gave me the thumbs up after. Very cool.
 
That isn't an explanation. That is just a foot stamping assertion with no reason or facts or evidence or intelligent analysis.

The change is only "worse" if you look at the single dimension of power output under certain circumstances as the only dimension. And even that is relatively minor negative change.

The change was probably "for the better" if you look at other dimensions such as Mean Time To Failure, expected owner costs for maintenance and repairs post-warranty, owner time lost and inconvenience for leaving cars at service centers for work that could have been avoided if power output was managed differently. Looking at those dimensions and many other dimensions, the changes are for the better. In the aggregate the change is a trade-off.




What is the specific advertising (screen shot or quote) that is at issue that you claim was deceptive? or made deceptive by the software changes to power delivery?

It is a fair point that Tesla must comply with federal Truth In Advertising | Federal Trade Commission and equivalent state laws -- knowing a bit about that, and without getting into details, I'm comfortable that they have complied.

Making engineering trade-offs that limit performance (or its accessibility) in relatively minor ways while still meeting the actual published marketing specs =/ deceptive advertising

There is a vigorous and aggressive plaintiffs bar that enforces that area -- especially with autos -- and I don't see a significant risk of noncompliance or liability exposure. Just as with product liability claims though there may eventually be a nuisance suit which will be dismissed or settled by buying off the attys.

But someone who feels strongly that they have been seriously deceived and thereby harmed (what are the damage$?) and are truly suffering from a product that doesn't meet promised advertising and marketing claims, I would encourage to engage an atty to educate them on these issues.

I don't see a basis to attribute ill-will or evil intention to the Tesla engineers and their software design choices for the updates. They will make mistakes, or, put another way, find a better way, to implement improvements. And overall the changes have been vastly for the better.



This what it is all about it. How they implement this is what causes debate. More information as to what exactly is the wrong thing, and at what dose/use level would be more helpful for Tesla to share.



No. Mine is still as fast as ever. Says power tools and buttmeter. But I didn't use LM more than a couple dozen times, and not use MBP more than ~100.

I tried not to redline my ICEs much either. Or push the nitrous button too often. Seems like the same common sense to me.



There is this interesting trend where in some cases ET goes down as SOC goes down. Suggesting something may be off with that big SOC/power chart that suggests otherwise.

I wonder if has to do with an increasing batt temp from earlier runs heating you the batt above mere MBP level but not yet to where the batt cooling kicks in. And it is enough to make up for the lower SOC and allows even faster runs at lower SOC.
I think my last run with the SOC lower was better because there was less wheelspin at the start. I was really agonizing because the battery was at ready (heating probably) for an hour and a half between runs draining the juice.
 
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