PG&E Net Metering Billing question

[mattack4000]

Hey guys, I got a question about PG&E's net metering billing program. I have a very efficient home with a set of small solar panels. Overall I am close to zero at partial peak, positive in peak and offpeak. If I were to double the size of my solar panel and generate more power that would get my partial peak time to negative kwh, will PG&E give me the partial peak rate back or will they pay me at the wholesale cost like some of the folks with bigger system? I am trying to build my ROI to justify the solar upgrade.

Here is an example

Daily Usage Now

P-Peak, 1 kwh @ .25 $0.25
Peak, 4 kwh @.45 $1.80
Off Peak, 20 kwh @.13 $2.60

If I double the size of my solar, I would get something like this

P-Peak -3kwh (will they give me 25 cents or .06 cents?)
Peak, 2kwh @ .45 $0.9
Off Peak, 20kwh @ .13 $2.6

 

[cwied]

You are credited with the rate at the time you generate. However, at the true-up at the end of the year any kWh surplus is paid out at wholesale rates. With NEM 2.0, you also have to pay "non-bypassable charges" for every kWh you get from the grid, even if it is offset by solar production at a different time. These amount to a few cents per kWh.

Note that some of the community choice aggregators will actually pay out excess generation at retail rates. This covers the generation portion only, not transmission, but still is a good deal if one is available in your area. Peninsula Clean Energy also has a 1 cent bonus for surplus solar generation in a month (at a given rate).

 

[wwu123]

It sounds like you are probably grandfathered in on NEM 1.0. You would be credited at the retail rate when you generate and send back excess back to the grid, as cwied says, and therefore the balance is in $, not in kwh, that can be used until your true-up. And as you know, one kwh of Peak generation can easily offset 2-3 kwh of Off-Peak consumption in $ terms, depending on the TOU plan.

However, I believe on NEM 1.0 agreement, you are only allowed to add additional 1 kw of capacity. If you add more, then I believe PG&E can cancel your NEM 1.0 - but I don't know if you then go on NEM 2.0 or what...

 

[miimura]

It sounds like you are probably grandfathered in on NEM 1.0. You would be credited at the retail rate when you generate and send back excess back to the grid, as cwied says, and therefore the balance is in $, not in kwh, that can be used until your true-up. And as you know, one kwh of Peak generation can easily offset 2-3 kwh of Off-Peak consumption in $ terms, depending on the TOU plan.

However, I believe on NEM 1.0 agreement, you are only allowed to add additional 1 kw of capacity. If you add more, then I believe PG&E can cancel your NEM 1.0 - but I don't know if you then go on NEM 2.0 or what...

The NEM 1.0 retention rule is that you can add 10% or 1kW, whichever is more, and remain on NEM 1.0. If you expand more than that you either have to pay for another meter for the new generation on NEM 2.0, or you have to convert the whole house to NEM 2.0.

Also, the OP's figures look like the EV rate plan, but those are the Summer prices. The Winter Peak rate is only about $0.32/kWh.

I will also point out that if you have Powerwalls you will be kicked back to the special billing system that outputs the black and white letter size bills. Several years ago PG&E finally got the solar billing into the regular Blue bills. The NEMMT Powerwall billing is nearly incomprehensible, especially with a CCA. I'm on Silicon Valley Clean Energy.

 

[mattack4000]

What is nem 1.0 or 2.0?

My system is five years old. Witt my increase usage, I barely generate during the day. I am hoping to generate enough to at least run everything and maybe the ac

 

[cwied]

NEM 1.0 was the net metering agreement through December 2016. It was replaced with NEM 2.0. Here is some background on NEM 2.0: 2019 Net Metering in California: NEM 2.0 Explained | EnergySage

As @miimura said, if you need to add more than 1 kW of panels, you will be switched to NEM 2.0. It's not a really big difference, but it will increase your bills slightly (or require you to have slightly more panels to achieve a full billing offset).

 

[miimura]

NEM 1.0 was the net metering agreement through December 2016. It was replaced with NEM 2.0. Here is some background on NEM 2.0: 2019 Net Metering in California: NEM 2.0 Explained | EnergySage

As @miimura said, if you need to add more than 1 kW of panels, you will be switched to NEM 2.0. It's not a really big difference, but it will increase your bills slightly (or require you to have slightly more panels to achieve a full billing offset).

In my situation with a CCA, when I increase my solar I can just add an extra panel or two to get money back from the CCA to offset the NBCs paid to PG&E after converting to NEM 2. It will probably still be less generation than net zero kWh annually. While I'm at it I will probably oversize the solar some more so I can eventually convert some of my gas appliances to electric. I had originally planned for a 9.5kW system with NSHP rebate when I had the house built, but the solar installer and T24 consultant were not prepared for all the paperwork, so I missed out on that massive rebate program and I settled for a small solar system.

 

[mattack4000]

My net peak usage is about 2kwh per day. partial peak is 2.7kwh and off peak is 17kwh per day on average.

 

[toolworker]

In my situation with a CCA, when I increase my solar I can just add an extra panel or two to get money back from the CCA to offset the NBCs paid to PG&E after converting to NEM 2.

It might not be a good idea to rely on the CCA payout. For a decade, Marin Clean Energy paid out the retail price for excess generation, measured in dollars. But this month they went to the dark side and switched to PG&E's calculation: dollar credits disappear at true-up and they only pay for excess generation measured in kWh (although at twice wholesale). According to the MCE staff report, a lot of other CCAs have done this or soon will.

Which brings me to my question. If I stay with MCE, I will owe PG&E for transmission and lose a generation credit with MCE. If I were to switch back to PG&E, would transmission and generation be combined at true-up, so any generation credit would offset a transmission debit? PG&E solar help line says yes. MCE staff say no, PG&E does a separate calculation at true-up for generation and transmission.

Who's right? And can someone using PG&E for generation show me a true-up bill to prove it?

And is there any other reason I would lose by switching back to PG&E? I am on E-6 and NEM 1.0.

 

[jaed]

I don't have solar installed yet so please correct me if I am wrong. PGE from what I could figure out they would only pay you around .03 cents per KW to buy the solar then sell it to you at whatever TOU rate plan your on.
Then at the end of the year if you owe money you have to pay but if PGE owes you it goes to zero. They don't pay you anything.
Is that correct?

 

[Ampster]

It might not be a good idea to rely on the CCA payout. For a decade, Marin Clean Energy paid out the retail price for excess generation, measured in dollars. But this month they went to the dark side and switched to PG&E's calculation: dollar credits disappear at true-up and they only pay for excess generation measured in kWh (although at twice wholesale). According to the MCE staff report, a lot of other CCAs have done this or soon will.

Which brings me to my question. If I stay with MCE, I will owe PG&E for transmission and lose a generation credit with MCE. If I were to switch back to PG&E, would transmission and generation be combined at true-up, so any generation credit would offset a transmission debit? PG&E solar help line says yes. MCE staff say no, PG&E does a separate calculation at true-up for generation and transmission.

Who's right? And can someone using PG&E for generation show me a true-up bill to prove it?

And is there any other reason I would lose by switching back to PG&E? I am on E-6 and NEM 1.0.

I agree, that the CCA payout rates have declined. I got a $280 dividend this year but my CCA, Sonoma Clean Power has reduced that from retail to twice the wholesale rate for next year.

1. When you say generation credit, are you talking about net metering negative kWhrs because you produced more than you consumed?
2. Or, are you talking about that portion of your bill that is the MCE bucket or ledger and which is labeled generation?

 

[getakey]

I don't have solar installed yet so please correct me if I am wrong. PGE from what I could figure out they would only pay you around .03 cents per KW to buy the solar then sell it to you at whatever TOU rate plan your on.
Then at the end of the year if you owe money you have to pay but if PGE owes you it goes to zero. They don't pay you anything.
Is that correct?

Not quite correct. When you over produce during the day, you are credited "on paper" at the rate during your production towards your annual true up. For example, if you are over producing during Peak, you are banking credit at the Peak Rate. Typically, you will bank during Summer and use more from the Grid during winter. When they produce your annual True-up bill, they will only pay you the wholesale rate ($.03/kWh) for any over production for the entire year. Thus, for sizing, you want to size your system for a Net Zero True up Bill. My True Up was $50.

 

[cwied]

Which brings me to my question. If I stay with MCE, I will owe PG&E for transmission and lose a generation credit with MCE. If I were to switch back to PG&E, would transmission and generation be combined at true-up, so any generation credit would offset a transmission debit? PG&E solar help line says yes. MCE staff say no, PG&E does a separate calculation at true-up for generation and transmission.

I can't comment on current practices, but I did have a couple of true-ups with PG&E before PCE was available and they definitely did a combined calculation at that time (2017). They did show the line items as well, but the actual netting was done on the sum of all the values, not on generation and transmission separately.

 

[Ampster]

I can't comment on current practices, but I did have a couple of true-ups with PG&E before PCE was available and they definitely did a combined calculation at that time (2017). They did show the line items as well, but the actual netting was done on the sum of all the values, not on generation and transmission separately.

Yes, as far as PGE's billing when someone opts out of a CCA I do know that they use the bundled rate for any accumulation of TOU credits at True Up. With POGE there are only two numbers to be concerned with. One, the kWhrs and two, the dolars on the PGE ledger or bucket that reflects the bundled rate.

For clarification the bundled rate includes the rate for generation, distribution, transmission and other charges.

 

[miimura]

The one thing I noticed in the unbundled rates effective 5/1/2020, especially on EV2-A, is that the rate increased overall, but the Generation portion decreased and the other parts that are still on the PG&E side increased. This puts more pressure on the CCAs and leaves more money in PG&E's pocket.

 

[mattack4000]

So I have some good and bad news. The solar is working as I expected. Even though I got switched to NEM2, but I still have my EVA at this point. I guess since I will lose EVA after this year, I am going to invest in a Powerwall. Anyway I have a question about the confusing PG&E bill. The net metering part is simple, but what are all the extra charges. I under the NBC is basically a mandatory 2-3 cents per kwh I have to pay to use the grid and support the low income people. What about the other 3 charges? I can't match them to anything.

I think the Power CHarge Indifference is what i am paying to San Jose. What is Net Usage Adjustment

 

[miimura]

The Power Charge Indifference Adjustment is how PG&E sticks it to CCAs to compensate for their long term contracts. PG&E likes to complain about "departing loads" since they were required to ensure supply for their customers but CCAs are now responsible for sourcing power for those customers that have since joined the CCAs. In most cases, the CCA is still cheaper. If you add the Generation Credit, PCIA and the amount billed by your CCA, you should come out slightly ahead.

I have never figured out how to replicate the NBC Net Usage Adjustment calculation from the Tariff. Total black box to me. It's not clear from the Tariffs what the basis is for this adjustment at all. At least it works in your favor.

 

[mattack4000]

BTW. What the f, peak time is .54314 !@#$%^&*

 

[aesculus]

BTW. What the f, peak time is .54314 !@#$%^&*

Do you like that? Hence the need for PowerWalls if you are on EVA(1) or probably any EVA plan. But the good news is that you get that much credit too if you can produce during much of that period (it's 3-9PM weekdays).

So the goal is to give everything you can to PG&E from 3-6PM or so while you drink soley from your powerwalls until 9PM. Before that you charge your PowerWalls so you can bridge that time.

 

[mattack4000]

Do you like that? Hence the need for PowerWalls if you are on EVA(1) or probably any EVA plan. But the good news is that you get that much credit too if you can produce during much of that period (it's 3-9PM weekdays).

So the goal is to give everything you can to PG&E from 3-6PM or so while you drink soley from your powerwalls until 9PM. Before that you charge your PowerWalls so you can bridge that time.

On EV-A, the damage isn't as bad because I still have partial peak. As you can see in my bill, I get a decent amount back. Under EV2-A, I am going to get screwed completely. THat's why I ordered a PW, subject to installation later this year. I think the switch to EV2-A is later this year for me. All myusage at night is charging the 3 EV cars.

And yes I would be able to charge the Powerwall from 8AM-3PM to full while offsetting my own usage at home. From 3PM-5PM, I have enough solar left to just offset the usage. From 5PM-12PM, I can offset my entire usage with the exception of my car charger and AC. Unfortunately my AC cant be installed with the PW, so I have to pay the AC.