Powerwall 2 + UPS Connundrum - and solution

[gpez]

Yeah, I've found 1st tier support is hit-or-miss. I called once last March concerning my Powerwalls and one agent told me that the "whole point of a grid-tied solar system is that it shuts down automatically when the grid goes down". I had to inform her that one of the main selling points of the Powerwall is that it can keep solar running if there is a grid outage. It sounded like she no idea what the Powerwall was or how it functioned.

I thought our Powerwalls had been adjusted but after our recent 8 day off-grid test, the next morning the power went out for a minute and I realized the frequency was still an issue when the Powerwalls are fully charged. I will be sure to mention "UL 1741 certified inverter" when I call in next time.

Totally agree about T1 bring hit or miss.

I should clarify that my "3 minute call" was with T2 agent that I was already working with on a related issue regarding my Eaton combo gfci/afci breakers in my service panel tripping when the Powerwall took over. Ironic of course that the Eaton UPSes are happy but their breakers tripped...

If I had to start from T1 I may not mention UL 1741 at the outset but rather do exactly what bmah said: ask them to configure my system to only go up to 62.5hz and to escalate to T2. Once they got that down I'd ask them to put in the escalation ticket the inverter details (make and model) as well as include the UL 1741 info.

 

[arnolddeleon]

Yeah, I've found 1st tier support is hit-or-miss. I called once last March concerning my Powerwalls and one agent told me that the "whole point of a grid-tied solar system is that it shuts down automatically when the grid goes down". I had to inform her that one of the main selling points of the Powerwall is that it can keep solar running if there is a grid outage. It sounded like she no idea what the Powerwall was or how it functioned.

I thought our Powerwalls had been adjusted but after our recent 8 day off-grid test, the next morning the power went out for a minute and I realized the frequency was still an issue when the Powerwalls are fully charged. I will be sure to mention "UL 1741 certified inverter" when I call in next time.

yes good luck. I ended up with a tech on site when I thought I hit jackpot describing the problem. As it turns out the work was all done remotely. The one task that the tech did locally was to try to look up the specifications on the SolarCity inverter to make sure that it meant the frequency requirements. I found this amusing since Tesla (nee SolarCity) installed it and it is a UL 1741 inverter.

 

[aclosedmind]

Just a quick follow up here. After calling to open my ticket, we had a 25 minute power outage on November 20th. During that time, the LED lights in my fans flashed and the last remaining Cyberpower UPS acted as it had before, not recognizing mains power once on powerwall supplied power. On the 22nd, I replaced that last UPS and did another controlled test. This time the lights did not flash. Tesla called me today to confirm they had made the change on the 21st, a day after my call, and wanted to perform another test to verify it was working. I let them know I had done the test already and all was well.

So at this point, thanks to the input from this forum, I am back in business. I likely didn't have to replace all of my UPSes as noted by the OP, but they were aging anyway and I need so few of them now it wasn't a huge hassle or expense. Transition to powerwall supplied power in an outage with fully charged batteries appears to be seamless and working as expected.

Now if there was just some way to solve the problem of overly sensitive arc fault breakers tripping during an outage....

 

[gpez]

@aclosedmind glad to hear your issue is resolved!

I had the same problem with my Eaton AFCI/GFCI/Combo breakers tripping however the frequency update resolved that issue for me as well. Are you still having the problem after your frequency update? If you also have Eaton breakers and they are still tripping you can check the fault code via the blink pattern. Details below.

When I was working with T2 here was my exact email to them:

My panel has 3 different kinds of breakers, all Eaton brand. There are:

- Eaton type BR120/C120 (black). I do not believe these have tripped.
- Eaton dual purpose type AFCI/GFCI (blue). These have tripped. The washing machine is on this circuit but was not in use when it tripped.
- Eaton type BR Combination AFCI (green). These have tripped. The microwave is on this circuit but was not in use when it tripped.

The blue Dual Purpose breakers provide a status code when tripped. The pattern was 5 blinks, indicating a ground fault as per the Eaton web site Residential Circuit Breakers | BR Circuit Breakers | Eaton.

 

[aclosedmind]

@aclosedmind glad to hear your issue is resolved!

I had the same problem with my Eaton AFCI/GFCI/Combo breakers tripping however the frequency update resolved that issue for me as well. Are you still having the problem after your frequency update? If you also have Eaton breakers and they are still tripping you can check the fault code via the blink pattern. Details below.

When I was working with T2 here was my exact email to them:

My panel has 3 different kinds of breakers, all Eaton brand. There are:

- Eaton type BR120/C120 (black). I do not believe these have tripped.
- Eaton dual purpose type AFCI/GFCI (blue). These have tripped. The washing machine is on this circuit but was not in use when it tripped.
- Eaton type BR Combination AFCI (green). These have tripped. The microwave is on this circuit but was not in use when it tripped.

The blue Dual Purpose breakers provide a status code when tripped. The pattern was 5 blinks, indicating a ground fault as per the Eaton web site Residential Circuit Breakers | BR Circuit Breakers | Eaton.

My breakers are actually Schneider Electric and don't have any lights or other ways to signify a fault. They just flip at the drop of a hat. Further complicating, they had a bad batch of these and the internet is full of examples of people having similar issues. My controlled tests don't actually result in any flipped breakers and the last natural outage we had was proceeded by a brownout which flipped about half of our 15/20A ones before the Powerwalls kicked in (or simultaneously). I'll keep an eye out the next time the power goes out and that'll be the first thing we check. Here's the kind used at my home:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NO2FGXM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Note that these were problematic and oversensitive prior to my solar and powerwall install though they have gotten much better after some recent replacements

 

[gpez]

My breakers are actually Schneider Electric and don't have any lights or other ways to signify a fault. They just flip at the drop of a hat. Further complicating, they had a bad batch of these and the internet is full of examples of people having similar issues. My controlled tests don't actually result in any flipped breakers and the last natural outage we had was proceeded by a brownout which flipped about half of our 15/20A ones before the Powerwalls kicked in (or simultaneously). I'll keep an eye out the next time the power goes out and that'll be the first thing we check. Here's the kind used at my home:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NO2FGXM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Note that these were problematic and oversensitive prior to my solar and powerwall install though they have gotten much better after some recent replacements

That sucks. Sounds like it's not specifically a Powerwall issue and you may have to swap those breakers out again. At least for me the whole point of the setup is to have 0 human involvement whatsoever

 

[aclosedmind]

That sucks. Sounds like it's not specifically a Powerwall issue and you may have to swap those breakers out again. At least for me the whole point of the setup is to have 0 human involvement whatsoever

Totally agree - thats the ideal I'm striving for!

 

[aclosedmind]

Using this number now: 1 (888) 518-3752 option 2, 3, 1, 2

Just FYI, the number still works but the options have changed. Its now 18885183752, option 2, 3, 3, then hold. Calling to make this change on my mother's freshly installed powerwall

 

[aesculus]

Just to get back on topic a bit:

I just have my security cameras, router and NAS on UPS backup. It can handle 90 minutes of those loads so I have the NAS set to 30 minutes before it terminates.

Is this a reasonable approach that gives the powerwalls plenty of leeway?

 

[KY-Lonewolf]

Just to get back on topic a bit:

I just have my security cameras, router and NAS on UPS backup. It can handle 90 minutes of those loads so I have the NAS set to 30 minutes before it terminates.

Is this a reasonable approach that gives the powerwalls plenty of leeway?

No it's not.
If your UPS backups are not high Hz tolerant like for example the Eaton UPSs, or your Gateway is not set to a lower Hz setting you will eventually burn up the batteries in your UPSs. Most UPSs can't handle deep discharges repeatedly.
I'm assuming you have PV panels and your inverters are CPUC Rule 21 compliant ........ is that correct?

 

[aesculus]

I am using a CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD PFC Sinewave UPS System, 1500VA/1000W.

When fully charged with the load I have on it it says it can handle that for 1 1/2 hours so I though 30 minutes would be safe.

My two inverters do switch on and off based on the PW gateway needs. One is CPUC Rule 21 compliant, the other not, just because it does not communicate.

 

[KY-Lonewolf]

I am using a CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD PFC Sinewave UPS System, 1500VA/1000W.

When fully charged with the load I have on it it says it can handle that for 1 1/2 hours so I though 30 minutes would be safe.

My two inverters do switch on and off based on the PW gateway needs. One is CPUC Rule 21 compliant, the other not, just because it does not communicate.

I love Cyberpower UPS backups, I have 13 of them .........they are great product.
My powerwalls were first installed in September 2019.
When I initially did grid down testing, the gateway sent out a 65 Hz signal to blast the inverters off (my SMA inverters only need 60.5 Hz to shut down)
The 65Hz caused all my Cyberpower UPSs to go to battery because the highest they can tolerate is 63 Hz.
Tesla changed my gateway parameters.
The fix was to lower the Hz to below 63Hz in the firmware and that made the Cyberpowers stay off battery.

aesculus if your gateway is blasting 65 Hz (or higher than 63 Hz) and you are grid down with PG&E hell you Cyberpowers will burn up if your gateway is blasting high Hz to shut off your inverters throughout the day.

 

[aesculus]

aesculus if your gateway is blasting 65 Hz (or higher than 63 Hz) and you are grid down with PG&E hell you Cyberpowers will burn up if your gateway is blasting high Hz to shut off your inverters throughout the day.

Hmm. I have not driven into the specs on the UPS yet but I thought I remembered a setting for frequency tolerance. I'll check it out.

And the other thing: My home is so under powered solar wise I doubt the PW ever shut off the inverters. I suppose in a PSPS where there was a storm alert that the PWs charged to 100% and then PG&E disconnected during solar production I could see this issue.

 

[gpez]

I love Cyberpower UPS backups, I have 13 of them .........they are great product.
My powerwalls were first installed in September 2019.
When I initially did grid down testing, the gateway sent out a 65 Hz signal to blast the inverters off (my SMA inverters only need 60.5 Hz to shut down)
The 65Hz caused all my Cyberpower UPSs to go to battery because the highest they can tolerate is 63 Hz.
Tesla changed my gateway parameters.
The fix was to lower the Hz to below 63Hz in the firmware and that made the Cyberpowers stay off battery.

aesculus if your gateway is blasting 65 Hz (or higher than 63 Hz) and you are grid down with PG&E hell you Cyberpowers will burn up if your gateway is blasting high Hz to shut off your inverters throughout the day.

I can't upvote this enough so quoting to agree

This is exactly my scenario as well as I have 4 Cyberpower UPS devices at home including CP1500LCD (modified sine wave) and until Tesla changed my configuration all of them complained about wall power when the Powerwall was providing power.

 

[aesculus]

aesculus if your gateway is blasting 65 Hz (or higher than 63 Hz) and you are grid down with PG&E hell you Cyberpowers will burn up if your gateway is blasting high Hz to shut off your inverters throughout the day.

I am off to call Fronius tomorrow to see what frequency my vintage (2015) Galvo cuts off. My other newer one is certainly Rule 21 compliant.

Once I found out what the frequency is (hopefully both 60.5 hz) I will have Tesla make sure the system is set appropriately (ie around 62-63 hz).

 

[CSFTN]

Anyone know if this will work ...
APC SMT1500RM2UC
Web site specifications does say input frequency 50/60 +/- 3 Hz ... which looks like it won't. Does it mean what it appears to say? Anyone experience?

APC Smart-UPS 1500VA LCD RM 2U 120V with SmartConnect - APC USA

 

[bob_p]

Assuming the solar inverters/microinverters will shutdown at a frequency close to 60 Hz (our microinverters are supposed to shut off at 60.5Hz), it's much better to get Tesla to lower their "fully charger PowerWall" frequency (to 61 Hz) than replacing UPS boxes, because other devices will also be affected by the higher frequency - devices that are designed to operate at 60Hz and may fail or could be damaged by extended running at high frequencies (such as air conditioners, pool pumps, refrigerators, ...).

 

[JPP]

Just finishing up a Powerwall install. My install team said that I would have to call Tesla Energy Support, which I did. Told them that I wanted 61Hz and why (a bunch of CyberPower and APC UPS that I know don't like much above 62Hz). They asked for make & model of my UPS (maybe to document the need) and said that they would submit the request to reprogram my Powerwalls. I have not yet had an opportunity to have my Powerwalls at 100% and do a test switching off the grid feed.

 

[bob_p]

I submitted the request to Tesla last Thursday, still waiting to get confirmation on when they'll make the frequency change (and then rerun our off-grid/fully charged PW test to verify)...

 

[aesculus]

I submitted the request to Tesla last Thursday, still waiting to get confirmation on when they'll make the frequency change (and then rerun our off-grid/fully charged PW test to verify)...

I need to do the same. Did you do this via phone or email?