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Predicting production - Troy discussion

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Discoducky

P100DL, 2021 M3, 4 CT reservations and counting
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Dec 25, 2011
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Troy used to participate on this forum and used to be someone I followed and respected, but now, it seems, the methods being used are highly suspect and questionable.

Thus, this causes lots of discussion on the main thread. So creating this one to keep some of the highlights here.
 
This one from @Gigapress

 
And another...

 
This was my production estimate on Nov 9:

Q4 estimate: 466,165
Full-year estimate: 1,396,075
Estimated Growth this year: 50.0%

hTeibwW.png


Nov 9 was the first time my production estimate reached the 50.0% growth target. Before that, it was just below 50%. I started estimating production in Q2 2021 and in the 6 quarters since then the largest error I made in my final estimate was 1.9%.

On the Oct 19 conference call Zach mentioned these two targets:

Tesla's Targets:
As for deliveries, my estimate was lower (415K on 9 Nov) because I see challenges in China. Tesla has two options:
  • Export all excess Giga Shanghai production in December to be delivered in January.
  • Generate more orders in China.
 
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This was my production estimate on Nov 9:

Q4 estimate: 466,165
Full-year estimate: 1,396,075
Estimated Growth this year: 50.0%

hTeibwW.png


Nov 9 was the first time my production estimate reached the 50.0% growth target. Before that, it was just below 50%. I started estimating production in Q2 2021 and in the 6 quarters since then the largest error I made in my final estimate was 1.9%.

On the Oct 19 conference call Zach mentioned these two targets:

Tesla's Targets:
As for deliveries, my estimate was lower (415K on 9 Nov) because I see challenges in China. Tesla has two options:
  • Export all excess Giga Shanghai production in December to be delivered in January.
  • Generate more orders in China.
See, this is why I created this thread! I get deliveries are a challenge, so many variables in play (crazy long reg lines, gov subsidies ending/staring in multiple countries the factory serves...etc).

Production however, wow, Shanghai really knocks stuff out, much easier to predict (still hard, but, much easier than the delivery madness).

And I get that you are making bank on your stuff, so I hope this all works out...
 
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As for deliveries, my estimate was lower (415K on 9 Nov) because I see challenges in China. Tesla has two options:
It is worth expanding on this point and a dedicated thread is the best way to do it.

My recollection is:-
  • A lot of cars already exported from China and in the pipeline (Q3/Q4)
  • The Tesla China server crashed after the recent price drops, with a flood of orders.
Daimler has also recently lowered prices in China, it is true that there is more competition in that market, and the Chinese economy has had some recent reversals.

But I am not sure what statistical data you have that indicates a demand problem.

Towards the end of Q3 some inventory was added to the overseas pipeline by building in Shanghai for export.
The reason given was shipping logistics, and vehicles in transit increased.
Seems to me if vehicles in transit increase in Q4 then. the number of vehicles build for export in late Q4. must exceed those built in late Q3.
I'm simply claiming vehicles built for export late Q3 will mostly be delivered in Q4.

Another consideration is shipping and logistics at Fremont and Austin seem to be flowing better.
We might see a decrease in "vehicles in transit" from Fremont and Austin in Q4.

IMO "vehicles in transit" is the most important measure, I don't care where these are from, and Shanghai is in part an export hub.
So when in doubt, build for export in Shanghai.
 
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This was my production estimate on Nov 9:

Q4 estimate: 466,165
Full-year estimate: 1,396,075
Estimated Growth this year: 50.0%

hTeibwW.png


Nov 9 was the first time my production estimate reached the 50.0% growth target. Before that, it was just below 50%. I started estimating production in Q2 2021 and in the 6 quarters since then the largest error I made in my final estimate was 1.9%.

On the Oct 19 conference call Zach mentioned these two targets:

Tesla's Targets:
As for deliveries, my estimate was lower (415K on 9 Nov) because I see challenges in China. Tesla has two options:
  • Export all excess Giga Shanghai production in December to be delivered in January.
  • Generate more orders in China.
Hi Troy, how were these production forecasts derived?

The Fremont number makes sense but the others are modeling for no growth and I am struggling to see how that makes sense in light of the available information and the guidance from company leadership.

Shanghai

Shanghai produced 87.7k cars in October. 87.7k * 3 = 263.1k, which happens to exactly equal the updated Q4 forecast. Do you really believe Shanghai will have literally zero production growth in Nov and Dec relative to Oct, and if so, why?

Bear in mind:

  • October had significant disruption and downtime from the weeklong holiday and probably the team was still getting up to full speed on the new production line upgrades.

  • The weekly run rate is supposed to be 22k peak with this upgrade, which would be ~95k per month before accounting for downtime.

  • Since 2021 (I don't have quick access to 2020 numbers) Shanghai has increased its production rate month-over-month every single time except for COVID disruptions, Chinese New Year, and planned line upgrades, so you're predicting a significant reversal of the trend.

1668654465447.png


Berlin and Texas

You're predicting growth will screech to a halt at these factories for the rest of Q4.

Tex: 27.2k / 13 = 2.1k/wk forecast
Ber: 29.6k / 13 = 2.3k/wk forecast

  • Berlin was already at 2k per week run rate as of October 1st according to a tweet from Tesla. Austin hit this same milestone three weeks later.

  • Elon said on the Q3 call that Berlin was "ramping rapidly".

  • Tesla has repeatedly stated that 5k/wk is likely for both factories by the end of the year

  • Historically, Fremont and Shanghai ramped quickly from the 2k/wk level

Elon, Q3 call: On the production ramp, Giga Berlin achieved another milestone of 2,000 cars made in a week with very good quality and is ramping rapidly. Giga Austin or Giga Texas should reach this milestone very soon. And in fact, just yesterday, we extrapolated yesterday's [inaudible] rate, it would be 2,000.

What is your understanding of why your Berlin and Texas estimates differ so greatly from these other sources of forecasting information?
 
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But I am not sure what statistical data you have that indicates a demand problem.
Also I would be interested to know what data overrides the comments on the Q3 call which reiterated Tesla's demand strength. Did something dramatically change in the last four weeks, and if so, was it not compensated for by Tesla offering discounts?

Elon: With respect to demand [Inaudible] we've got a lot of questions about demand in recent weeks. I can't emphasize enough, we have excellent demand for Q4, and we expect to sell every car that we make for as far in the future as we can see. So, the factories are running at full speed...

Martin Viecha

Thank you. Let's go to the next question. The next question is, what updates can you offer on the backlog and the recent order intake trends, especially outside of the U.S. and especially in China?

Elon Musk

Well, it's -- there's definitely -- China is experiencing a bit of a recession of sorts, which is property market -- simply from a property market mostly. And Europe has recession of sorts driven by energy. The U.S. actually isn't -- going North -- North America is a pretty good health, although the Fed is raising interest rates more than they should, but I think they'll eventually realize that and bring back down again. So, demand is a little harder than it would otherwise be, but as I said earlier, we are extremely confident of a great Q4, and we anticipate continuing to grow our vehicle production sales deliveries by -- on average 50% a year as far into the future as we can see.

Martin Viecha

Thank you. The next question is, do you still expect 50% annualized growth for the foreseeable future? Is this also true specifically for the Chinese domestic market? Do you expect to need to cut vehicle prices or offer incentives in any market to sustain a demand? Or has demand remained stable? Or is it even rising? There are three questions there.

Elon Musk

Well, like I said, we want to sort of focus on a high level on what we think is possible here. We -- to the best of our knowledge, we believe that Tesla will continue to grow deliveries and revenue production at a 50% or greater compound annual growth rate. It might occasionally be a year that is a little less, and then some years would be maybe a little more or a lot more. In some of our out-year planning, we see potential annual growth rates that are in excess of 50%.

Martin Viecha

Can you talk about how Tesla could adjust if we were to enter a prolonged recession, including new product prioritization, investment flexibility, new factory versus factory expansion, service support infrastructure, productivity cost measures, and demand stimulation alternatives?

Elon Musk

Well, to be frank, we're very pedal to the metal come rain or shine. So, we are not reducing our production in any meaningful way, recession or not recession.
 
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Also I would be interested to know what data overrides the comments on the Q3 call which reiterated Tesla's demand strength. Did something dramatically change in the last four weeks?
IMO world wide demand is the only demand worth considering.

The fact that China may not have demand for 1 Million combined Model 3 & Y vehicles annually, isn't a big deal.,

As long as on an annual basis Tesla is able to sell every car they make, there is no issue.

An occasional build up of 'vehicles in transit" isn't a big deal, as long as it doesn't grow out of hand and become a problem.

I also think a compact cheaper model is badly needed world wide and that includes China. I have little doubt when Tesla make that model it will sell very well and the challenge will revert to ramping production.

I also expect the Semi and Cybertruck to sell well.

Model 3/Y/S/X may reach a steady state when global production approximately equals global demand. I also don't doubt that there is plenty of scope to drop prices while maintaining healthy margins.
 
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Let me try to answer questions people might have to make this easier to read:

Is there a problem in Q4?
Yes, the problem is that on 19 Oct Tesla said they expect just under 50% delivery growth this year. You can listen here. However, the current trend suggests 39-41% if Tesla doesn't make move in China.

Why wouldn't Tesla just export more if we are indeed trending towards 39-41% delivery growth?
Tesla didn't know the orders in China would be much less than needed after the 24 Oct price drop. They were expecting more orders. Reports from China suggest strong orders for the first week after the 24 Oct price cut but then apparently orders slowed down in the second week. That means they would have realized the issue around 6 Nov. By that time, it's already too late to book more ships for Q4 deliveries because it takes 40 days from Giga Shanghai to a buyer in Europe which means ships need to depart by 21 Nov and you would need to book them a month in advance. It is unfortunate that they waited until 24 Oct to drop the prices. Exports were 54,504 in October according to CPCA. The shipping data so far in November suggests 35-40K in Nov. That's not great.

Can't they just export in December?
Yes, they can but that doesn't help with Q4 deliveries because December exports will be delivered in January because of the long transit time. In other words, it doesn't help with the 39-41% delivery growth issue.

Tesla sold 121K cars in China in Q3 2022 before the price drop. Why wouldn't they sell 130-150K units in Q4 after the 24 Oct price drop?
Yes, they delivered 121K cars in Q3 but most of them were ordered before Q3. We know that because of the long wait times. For example, the wait time for Model 3 Standard Range was 20 weeks entering Q3 but by mid-Sep, it dropped to 1 week. I estimate that Tesla received only 60K orders during Q3. Therefore you need to think about how many orders they might get in Q4 after the 7% (on average) price drop on 24 Oct vs 60K orders in Q3. I think 90K is a good estimate considering that there were also some people waiting on the sidelines.

What data suggests they don't have enough orders?
I'm looking at the inventory build-up in China based on CPCA (China Passenger Car Association) data. I'm calculating inventory by subtracting deliveries and exports from production. Based on this data, inventory was 35,418 units in China at the end of October. Some people said how can it be 35K just in China when global inventory was 37K at the end of Sep. Let me explain, October CPCA numbers were as follows:

87,706 production
17,200 deliveries
54,504 exports

Therefore the change in inventory in October was = 87,706 -17,200 -54,504 = 16,002 units. In other words, inventory in China increased by 16,002 in October. It was 19,416 at the end of Sep. That's why it was so high at the end of October. The highest-ever inventory before October was 20,823 at the end of July. As you can see, the end-of-October inventory was super high compared to any other month.

Some people claimed that 35,418 inventory in China at the end of October was just Tesla preparing cars for exports. That's not true because the first ship in November to Europe (Glovis Safety) departed on Nov 8. The second one (Tokyo Car) departed on Nov 10. Giga Shanghai produces 3,000 cars/day. Each ship carries 3,900 units. It takes less than 2 days of production to fill up a ship.

The numbers suggest either none or a small portion of the 35,418 cars were for exports. If none were for exports, there would be still enough time to produce cars before the first ship started loading on Nov 7.

In addition to inventory, I'm looking at the weekly car registration numbers in China. There is a website here that publishes them. The numbers are not great. It should have been much higher because they had lots of cars in inventory. To me, this shows that the number of orders they received after the 24 Oct price cut was not enough.

Another clue that suggests the same thing is the insurance promotion on 8 Nov. See the news article here. Tesla is offering 8,000 yuan ($1,100) for deliveries by 30 Nov. If they had enough orders after the 24 Oct price drop, they wouldn't have refreshed the insurance promotion on 8 Nov.

Based on my calculation, inventory in China will be too much to handle by the end of Nov. Therefore I expect Tesla to make a move to generate more orders. We will have a better idea about demand in China after more weekly insurance registration data.

I recommend reading this post by an automotive blogger in China. He thinks Tesla doesn't have enough orders and some buyers who ordered the car don't want to take delivery. He blames the economy.

Why is your production estimate always so low?
It's not. In 3 out of the last 6 quarters including the last 2 quarters, my final estimate was higher than the actual number. Also, my delivery estimate for Q3 on 30 Sep was much higher than the actual number too.

QtW6MpC.png
 
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It's not. In 3 out of the last 6 quarters including the last 2 quarters, my final estimate was higher than the actual number. Also, my delivery estimate for Q3 on 30 Sep was much higher than the actual number too.
Can you post a table with progressive estimates for a few quarters?, i.e every estimate you make for a quarter and the date of the estimate.

I'm not 100% sure, but it seems more often than not your final estimate is typically your highest estimate for the quarter.
 
Some people claimed that 35,418 inventory in China at the end of October was just Tesla preparing cars for exports. That's not true because the first ship in November to Europe (Glovis Safety) departed on Nov 8.
Europe isn't the only export destination.

For example, a few thousand cars were recently shipped to Israel.

I'm not aware of anyone who is tracking all boats going to all possible destinations.

I'm not claiming you are wrong, because the point about the Chinese economy seems right.

IMO the correct approach is to maximise exports out of China, perhaps shipping is a constraint.
 
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Can you post a table with progressive estimates for a few quarters?, i.e every estimate you make for a quarter and the date of the estimate.

Yes, there are charts here that show my error rate at every point throughout the quarter. I started too high in the last 3 quarters and too low for 3 quarters before that. I don't have a bias either way.

I follow all exports very closely.
 
This is my take on all aspects of the issue.

1. Chinese economy - if the Chinese economy is slowing this is not specific to Tesla so far the US, EU and most of the rest of the world doesn't seem to have any 'demand issues'. Is the slow down in the Chinese economy temporary of permanent? If suitable shipping could be obtained, cars can simply be shipped from China to Europe or elsewhere. A temporary build up of Chinese inventory may not be a big deal.

2. Global recession - Elon sold Tesla shares to help ensure Twitter should survive a deep and long global recession. All indications are a recession would not impact on Tesla expansion plans or the intention to do a share buyback. Price for raw materials, parts and transport may trend lower in a recession, providing more scope to cut prices. IMO recessions tend to be "change accelerators", I have zero doubt that all of Tesla's production capacity will be useful after the recession. Given Tesla's heathy cash balance, low debt and generally strong demand outside of China the possibility of a recession isn't a strong argument for cutting Chinese prices now.

3. Chinese buyers gaming the market - whenever there is a rumoured price cut, Chinese buyers tend to hold off purchases. If Tesla cuts prices every time, it is very easy for Chinese buyers to slowly walk the price down, they know the margins Tesla is making. This is why it is sensible for Tesla to hold off cutting prices and ship more cars elsewhere, if that is possible,

4. Global Shipping logistics - BYD is building it's own fleet of RORO ships, this indicates BYD's global export ambitions and also the fact that RORO shipping capability might be a constraint. Tesla so far isn't doing that, and IMO the fact than Elon thinks a rescission is possible is probably a factor here. In a recession more shipping will become available at better prices. If Tesla does end up cutting prices then IMO this will be a big factor, inability to ship sufficient cars from China to other destinations over a prolonged period.

5. Internal Chinese logistics - We do know how many "in transit" vehicles are being shipped to other locations in China and how long that takes. At least I'm not aware of anyone tracking this in detail.

6. Remnant of the wave - We will still get some echo of the wave in Q4 in all markets including China, And if Tesla does cut prices, the wave will be more intense. However, we can say that regardless of price cuts that may or may not happen, no up-tick in deliveries late in Q4 more or less wipes out all points except 1. and 4. Meaning there is a softening of Chinese demand and Tesla is unable to ship a sufficient number of vehicles overseas.

I'm not ruling out the fact that Troy is right, I see this as 50/50, and we will find out when the official numbers are posted.
 
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This video might be relevant:-

Most Tesla models see shorter wait times in China. What does this mean? Tesla and local Tesla buyers are racing against time in China, more precisely: against expiring state purchase subsidies. In other words, it's good that most Tesla models see shorter wait times in China because faster deliveries from Tesla in China near the end of the year are expected to allow more local consumers to take advantage of the expiring state purchase subsidies.

The video author seems to reach a different conclusion from the same data. In this case it is more likely that Troy is right, but the subsidy expiring might be a factor,
 
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