Project Better Place

[SByer]

Marginalize your complement? You have to stumble into having a complement in the first place. It's never the things you avoid when getting things going. If you're too obvious a complement to a first mover, I don't think you ever get traction.

 

[Cobos]

TEG: I beleive PBP will sell you a number of miles on your EV. That means you pay a subscription fee for your car essentially. If they tie that to the battery or power or whatever isn't really relevant. The idea is they've got an extensive recharge structure which you get access to by paying them a fee. Remember they are launching in countries like Denmark where there is a significant fee on gas-powered cars, and not on EVs. This will at first make up much of the price difference between an EV and a gas-fueled counterpart. If they get a good engineered version from Renault-Nissan they will start with a battery-less EV that is cheaper than the gas counterpart. Add inn the battery and the gasoline fees and the EV is more expensive. PBP then takes f. inst. a 3 year deal with you and you get a big rebate on the car from them dropping the EV to a cheaper price than the gasoline car. For PBP if they can sell a power access only membership to Tesla owners that will pay off as well. They get more value out of all the recharge stations everywhere and the Tesla owner pays a bit for the power and a bit for the convenience of charging "everywhere". Think of the car and battery as a cellphone. You can now buy cellphones for free with an expensive plan or you can pay the whole phone up front and get a better monthly plan. A regular PBP customer will be the former and a Tesla customer will be the latter.

Cobos

 

[doug]

Last Winter when Tesla was still testing out the idea of the WhiteStar having a range extender, they also made some comment about it possibly having swappable batteries. I took this to mean they were considering partnering with Project Better Place. Has anyone heard anything new now that the WhiteStar is the Model S? PBP doesn't make sense for the Roadster, but it might make sense for the Model S.

The first and only time I heard Tesla mention a swappable battery pack was Elon's interview with Fareed Zakaria.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/news-articles-events/1348-fareed-zakaria-interviews-elon.html

Zakaria: Goodbye Gas Pump? A Solar-Powered Auto | Newsweek Future Of Energy | Newsweek.com

[Fareed:] Most people travel less than 50 miles a day.
[Elon:] And 99 percent of travel is under 200 miles [a day]. There is the occasional road trip, but that's actually pretty rare, and for some people it's never. Our second model will address that rare case in two ways. One is to allow people to switch out the battery pack, so you can go to a battery-change station just like you'd go to a gas station. The second path is to have a high-speed charge. If you have a high-powered onboard charger, you can get an 80 percent charge in 45 minutes. If you're going from L.A. to San Francisco, which is about a 400-mile trip, you can drive 200 miles, stop for lunch, charge your car in the restaurant parking lot, finish lunch and continue the remaining 200 miles to San Francisco.

 

[TEG]

Well, it will be interesting to see if Tesla and Better-Place ultimately compete, join forces or just coexist.

 

[Kevin Harney]

An 80% charge in 45 minutes translates to what size outlet ? (in amps)

 

[WarpedOne]

An 80% charge in 45 minutes translates to what size outlet ? (in amps)

If we assume it's ESS will store the same 53kWh as in Roadster than we have:

- 53kWh * 80% = 42kWh
- 42kWh in 1 hour => 42kW charger
- 42kWh in 45 min => 56kW charger
- add 20% for inefficiencies => 67kW charger
- 67kW at 240V will suck 280 ampers
- 67kW at 110V will suck 610 ampers
- 67kW at 380V will suck 180 ampers
- 67kW at 1000V will stil suck 67 amperes

Wanna bet we ain't gonna see that in practice?

 

[Kevin Harney]

Well, I am not too familiar with what that math means here in the US. Aren't MOST outlets 110 V and 15A ? And isn't a large outlet 240V and 70A ? So does that mean that a two phase outlet would need to be 280A which is the equivalent of 4 outlets that are of rather large size ? Doesn't that exceed the available capacity of most of the electric panels in the US ?

 

[WarpedOne]

>> Doesn't that exceed the available capacity of most of the electric panels in the US ?

Yes.
This is exactly why all this talk about quick charging is only mumbo jumbo.

 

[Cobos]

I'll discuss if it's mumbo jumbo or just very unrealistic I do have faith that there will be some quick charging stations somewhere... Just not that quick and just not that normal.

It's a bit like talking about the highest digit on your speedometer. In theory your car can get up to that speed, downhill, with a headwind, right at the redline. But usually you really don't WANT to go that fast

Cobos

 

[Kevin Harney]

I am not denying that there might be some quick charging stations around. But here in the US MOST people will be charging at home. And here in the US a 70A 2 phase 240V circuit is considered a very large residential circuit. much less a 280A circuit. Commercial may be a different baby all together and Elon did say stopping for lunch and charging would be faster.

 

[vfx]

...Elon did say stopping for lunch and charging would be faster.

Which is why context is necessary. "HOME" quick charging is unlikely.

(and arguably less needed)

 

[TEG]

Globes [online] - Israel business news - Renault delays electric car exports

 

[TEG]

Environmental Capital - WSJ.com : Electric Avenue: Will Electric Cars Ever Be Mass-Market?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Here's news of Project Better Place's plans for the Bay Area and EV charging:
Making Bay Area friendly for electric cars

There's a bit about SF Mayor Newsom's Roadster order and how he's having trouble working out how he's going to pay for the electricity since he's parked in a garage in an apartment.

 

[TEG]

Between Tesla talking about battery pack swap stations, and Gavin Newsom ("I need a place to charge my Tesla") talking about Better Place infrastructure, I am starting to think that Better Place and Tesla might be planning a collaboration of some sort.

 

[DDB]

Between Tesla talking about battery pack swap stations, and Gavin Newsom ("I need a place to charge my Tesla") talking about Better Place infrastructure, I am starting to think that Better Place and Tesla might be planning a collaboration of some sort.

If anything IMO there needs to be a "universal" type charging port with a Tesla adapter, PBP adapter, 110, 220, and adapters for whoever else is entering into production in the next 2 years PLUS A METER FOR CHARGING MONEY AND USE because it's coming sooner or later.

 

[TEG]

If anything IMO there needs to be a "universal" type charging port with a Tesla adapter, PBP adapter, 110, 220, and adapters for whoever else is entering into production in the next 2 years PLUS A METER FOR CHARGING MONEY AND USE because it's coming sooner or later.

Would it be too much to ask for the "universal" plug to include Avcon for my RangerEV and the Tango? Somehow I think they will probably do a new standard for next gen EVs and let the old standards fade away.

 

[vfx]

Would it be too much to ask for the "universal" plug to include Avcon for my RangerEV and the Tango? Somehow I think they will probably do a new standard for next gen EVs and let the old standards fade away.

Yes.

Seriously, Backwards compatible tech can seriously hurt new formats for a long time. (look at NTSC) I would ask how many public vehicles and how many chargers are there? Is it worth it? I'd rather give you $500 one time through the DMV to pay for backwards adaptors. Seriously.

 

[TEG]

An adapter would be fine. I just fear no way to hook up at all.

 

[vfx]

SF, Oakland, SJ's nine point plan released:

Mayor Office Press Room

Project Bette Place now Global Electric Transportation Company??