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PSA: CAREFUL--Autopilot sudden braking

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Maybe my expectations were too high, but After having a M3 for a few months, I’ve been sorely disappointed in AP and TACC. I think the LKAS (lane keep assist system) on my 2016 Honda Accord was better than AP. I didn’t have to disengage it just to change lanes.

You don't have to "disengage" AP to change lanes. Just use your steering wheel to change lanes and then re-engage AP. With EAP I have lane-change, but I only use it if there's no traffic in the lane I want to move into. Otherwise I just steer the car into the lane when it's safe to do so, and then re-engage EAP.
 
You don't have to "disengage" AP to change lanes. Just use your steering wheel to change lanes and then re-engage AP.

Ummm yeah (slow clap), the car disables AP when I make a lane change or put the signal on. So all the riders in my car get a dinging noise and a jerk (because it doesn’t handle it gracefully much of the time). Then more dinging noises as I re-engage.

At the end of the day it doesn’t matter whether I’m disengaging for a lane change or the car is, it’s still a terrible UX. It’s rather embarrassing for a car that touts a feature called “autopilot”. The reality is many other brands have a better “lane keep” systems at a far lower price.
 
Ummm yeah (slow clap), the car disables AP when I make a lane change or put the signal on. So all the riders in my car get a dinging noise and a jerk (because it doesn’t handle it gracefully much of the time). Then more dinging noises as I re-engage.

At the end of the day it doesn’t matter whether I’m disengaging for a lane change or the car is, it’s still a terrible UX. It’s rather embarrassing for a car that touts a feature called “autopilot”. The reality is many other brands have a better “lane keep” systems at a far lower price.
Lane Keep Assist and Autosteer (since AP is Autosteer + TACC) are two different behaviors.
 
Ummm yeah (slow clap), the car disables AP when I make a lane change or put the signal on. So all the riders in my car get a dinging noise and a jerk (because it doesn’t handle it gracefully much of the time). Then more dinging noises as I re-engage.

At the end of the day it doesn’t matter whether I’m disengaging for a lane change or the car is, it’s still a terrible UX. It’s rather embarrassing for a car that touts a feature called “autopilot”. The reality is many other brands have a better “lane keep” systems at a far lower price.

Between the frequent phantom braking and the lack of fluid lane changes without needing to disable and re-engage AP, it's basically become a party trick for me when I have people in the car (and cross my fingers it doesn't phantom brake while I give a demo!). I've had AP for a few months now, and in most situations it's just not worth the hassle of going through the lane change process or dealing with the stress of trying to figure out when it will brake hard or freak out when someone safely changes lanes in front of you. I've realized in the areas I drive, frequent lane changes are required even for the calmest of drivers, and this coupled with all the other quirks of AP make it not very useful. I can see it being helpful driving long distances on highways without much traffic, but being from the northeast, that is not the usual environment.

If you use the turn signal before you use the steering wheel to change lines while in AP, the wheel won't jerk. I do wish the AP chime wasn't so dang loud, though.

Agreed, the loud chimes are annoying since AP needs to be turned on and off quite frequently on the highways I drive. That said if the chimes weren't there, I can see how it would be easy to get confused and think AP was on when it wasn't - I've inadvertently disabled it by holding the steering wheel too tightly while AP was active and the chime did alert me to the change state.
 
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Have to agree, I am now used to indicate changing lanes, even so my wife thinks something is wrong every time the car chimes in, the sound should be user adjustable. Also have had rapid phantom braking going entering underpasses I now hover over the accelerator when I see an underpass. Both times the wife thought it was my fault it does cause a confidence crisis, hopefully as more data is assesed they will get this right.
 
Lane Keep Assist and Autosteer (since AP is Autosteer + TACC) are two different behaviors.

Thanks for stating the obvious. Maybe you're quoting the wrong person, but I never said Autosteer or TACC were not a part of AP.

Other automakers don't (falsely) claim that Lane Keep and (T)ACC are "autopilot". I have a feeling there will come a day (likely after lawsuits) when Tesla regrets using the Autopilot moniker. Other automakers call them what they are "supplemental driver assist systems". If FSD ever works, that may deserve the "Autopilot" name.

Fact of the matter is, basic lane keep assist systems combined with traditional CC provide a better highway experience than AP IMO. Like I said, it would be very easy for them to make some adjustments to improve the UX, but instead I think they expect people to shell out $6000 to get lane keep that is usable. Their competition charges far less for this feature.
 
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Ummm yeah (slow clap), the car disables AP when I make a lane change or put the signal on. So all the riders in my car get a dinging noise and a jerk (because it doesn’t handle it gracefully much of the time). Then more dinging noises as I re-engage.

At the end of the day it doesn’t matter whether I’m disengaging for a lane change or the car is, it’s still a terrible UX. It’s rather embarrassing for a car that touts a feature called “autopilot”. The reality is many other brands have a better “lane keep” systems at a far lower price.

The name "autopilot" is false advertising. I will agree with you there. And some of the noises the car makes are annoyingly loud. And the lack of a noise when the car decides to slow down because it thinks there's a slower speed limit is also annoying.

But everyone I've ever had as a passenger in my car has been extremely impressed by the feature, even with its shortcomings, and I find EAP (of which I seldom use more than the AP features) to make "driving" the Model 3 the most relaxed driving experience I've ever had. And used properly (full attention on the road) I think it makes me a safer driver since I do not get nearly as tired as I used to do driving any other car.

The long list of what the car cannot do makes me doubt that we'll have true FSD any time soon, but considering the task at hand, I think Tesla has done an amazing job.

I've never driven a car with Lane-Keeping Assist. So I need to ask a question: Does LKA in other cars hold the car in the center of the lane? Or does it just take over from you, or warn you, when you start to drift out of your lane? Is it steering the car the whole time, or just taking over when you start to veer? What I love about AP is that even though I need to keep my hands on the wheel, the car is doing the steering. A system that merely adjusted or chimed when I started to leave the lane would not be nearly as nice as one that does the steering until I decide to intervene.
 
Thanks for stating the obvious. Maybe you're quoting the wrong person, but I never said Autosteer or TACC were not a part of AP.

Other automakers don't (falsely) claim that Lane Keep and (T)ACC are "autopilot". I have a feeling there will come a day (likely after lawsuits) when Tesla regrets using the Autopilot moniker. Other automakers call them what they are "supplemental driver assist systems". If FSD ever works, that may deserve the "Autopilot" name.

Fact of the matter is, basic lane keep assist systems combined with traditional CC provide a better highway experience than AP IMO. Like I said, it would be very easy for them to make some adjustments to improve the UX, but instead I think they expect people to shell out $6000 to get lane keep that is usable. Their competition charges far less for this feature.

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I've never driven a car with Lane-Keeping Assist. So I need to ask a question: Does LKA in other cars hold the car in the center of the lane? Or does it just take over from you, or warn you, when you start to drift out of your lane? Is it steering the car the whole time, or just taking over when you start to veer? What I love about AP is that even though I need to keep my hands on the wheel, the car is doing the steering. A system that merely adjusted or chimed when I started to leave the lane would not be nearly as nice as one that does the steering until I decide to intervene.
@daniel is asking kind of what I was trying to imply. Tesla has Lane Keep Assist. If you set it to assist it will try to keep you in your lane while you steer. As far as I am aware that is closest to how most LKA systems work. Autosteer is different in that it steers for you (with the company cya/nag of you needing to have your hands on the wheel).

I won't argue the lameness of paying 6k to be able to have the system change lanes for you, as I thought the pricing (and feature set) of EAP originally was fine.
 
The name "autopilot" is false advertising. I will agree with you there. And some of the noises the car makes are annoyingly loud. And the lack of a noise when the car decides to slow down because it thinks there's a slower speed limit is also annoying.

But everyone I've ever had as a passenger in my car has been extremely impressed by the feature, even with its shortcomings, and I find EAP (of which I seldom use more than the AP features) to make "driving" the Model 3 the most relaxed driving experience I've ever had. And used properly (full attention on the road) I think it makes me a safer driver since I do not get nearly as tired as I used to do driving any other car.

The long list of what the car cannot do makes me doubt that we'll have true FSD any time soon, but considering the task at hand, I think Tesla has done an amazing job.

I've never driven a car with Lane-Keeping Assist. So I need to ask a question: Does LKA in other cars hold the car in the center of the lane? Or does it just take over from you, or warn you, when you start to drift out of your lane? Is it steering the car the whole time, or just taking over when you start to veer? What I love about AP is that even though I need to keep my hands on the wheel, the car is doing the steering. A system that merely adjusted or chimed when I started to leave the lane would not be nearly as nice as one that does the steering until I decide to intervene.

I will agree that most are impressed with it...until they ride with me on a long trip. My wife and kids hate the noises (so do I). The UI on the M3 is so impressive it makes almost anything look good!

I can't speak for all cars, but my Accord, and my wife's MDX both had the driver assist packages. That includes LKAS (Lane Keep Ass. Sys), Forward braking collision mitigation, lane departure warning (LDW), parking sensors, and ACC. IIRC this package of features was about +$1500 on each car.

LKAS and LDW are different. LDW just warns you if you attempt to change lanes without signaling or (on the MDX) if there is a car detected in the lane you are moving towards. LKAS uses the forward camera to keep the car in the middle of the lane. It works very good on the interstate. You must be going at least 45 to engage it if memory serves. You have to opt-in to it on every drive, it doesn't persist between drives.

One thing the Tesla does a far better job on is sharp turns. The Honda/Acura would usually disengage on a really sharp turn. The Tesla slows down and takes the curve.

To be clear, I'm not a Tesla hater, I absolutely love my car. I just don't love what they label as "Autopilot" and it wouldn't take much to make it a killer system. I'd even be willing to pay a few hundred $ to be able to make (user initiated) lane changes without disengage/re-engage. But $6000 just for that is a joke. For now the only time I really use AP is when I'm on an empty road (which is rare) or in traffic (which of course, I try to avoid).
 
@daniel is asking kind of what I was trying to imply. Tesla has Lane Keep Assist. If you set it to assist it will try to keep you in your lane while you steer. As far as I am aware that is closest to how most LKA systems work. Autosteer is different in that it steers for you (with the company cya/nag of you needing to have your hands on the wheel).

I won't argue the lameness of paying 6k to be able to have the system change lanes for you, as I thought the pricing (and feature set) of EAP originally was fine.

Yeah, that's really what I'm getting at. Being able to change lanes without all the dinging isn't worth $6K.

I explained the (Honda/Acura) LKAS and LDW above (at least as I understood them). IIRC Tesla has a similar LDW feature under the safety menu. I suppose that's similar but I haven't really been able to figure out which setting works best and after reading these boards it appears the behavior has changed a few times via SW updates. Not really worried about that one, I look before changing lanes.
 
I wasn't aware that Tesla has LDW when AP is not operating. I might have it turned on and don't know it. It does vibrate the steering wheel if I drive on the line without having signaled a turn. Is that LDW?

Having autosteer only above 45 mph would mean I'd almost never be able to use it here on Maui.

I would NEVER pay $6,000 to add the lane-change feature if I had plain AP. I am very happy with my choice to pay $5K (IIRC) for EAP. I guess it's disappointing that people now get almost what I have without paying the $5K, but then I got the $7.5K tax break. I also got the upgraded interior, which I didn't really want, but now that I have it I like it. Of course, when you pay the $6K what you're really paying for is the pig in a poke of FSD. You get the lane-changing, but you're paying for a car that will drive itself just as soon as they figure out how to do that.

And the Accord doesn't interest me because the bottom-line reason I bought a Tesla is that it's electric. All the rest, the EAP and the torque, is all just gravy. I'd probably still be driving my Zap Xebra if it had had double the range and wasn't so abysmally underpowered. Or a Leaf if Nissan hadn't treated me like sh!t for half a year after they had originally promised to deliver my car.
 
I wasn't aware that Tesla has LDW when AP is not operating. I might have it turned on and don't know it. It does vibrate the steering wheel if I drive on the line without having signaled a turn. Is that LDW?

Having autosteer only above 45 mph would mean I'd almost never be able to use it here on Maui.

I would NEVER pay $6,000 to add the lane-change feature if I had plain AP. I am very happy with my choice to pay $5K (IIRC) for EAP. I guess it's disappointing that people now get almost what I have without paying the $5K, but then I got the $7.5K tax break. I also got the upgraded interior, which I didn't really want, but now that I have it I like it. Of course, when you pay the $6K what you're really paying for is the pig in a poke of FSD. You get the lane-changing, but you're paying for a car that will drive itself just as soon as they figure out how to do that.

And the Accord doesn't interest me because the bottom-line reason I bought a Tesla is that it's electric. All the rest, the EAP and the torque, is all just gravy. I'd probably still be driving my Zap Xebra if it had had double the range and wasn't so abysmally underpowered. Or a Leaf if Nissan hadn't treated me like sh!t for half a year after they had originally promised to deliver my car.

Agreed on all fronts. I think anyone who's owned a Tesla previous to the last (of many) price cuts has reason to be miffed. The price of my car went down $5K 4 weeks after I bought it. So much for my "appreciating asset"...

I'm certainly not saying buy an Accord! I had one and while I loved it at the time, I'd never go back now that I've had an M3. I was just using an example of how another automaker has implemented some of the same features. I don't really have enough experience in other cars to compare their driver assist systems.
 
Agreed on all fronts. I think anyone who's owned a Tesla previous to the last (of many) price cuts has reason to be miffed. The price of my car went down $5K 4 weeks after I bought it. So much for my "appreciating asset"...

I'm not miffed. A little disappointed I had to pay more. But OTOH I got my car sooner and was able to drive it while others were waiting miserably. No regrets here, whatsoever, and no anger at Tesla.

I'm certainly not saying buy an Accord! I had one and while I loved it at the time, I'd never go back now that I've had an M3. I was just using an example of how another automaker has implemented some of the same features. I don't really have enough experience in other cars to compare their driver assist systems.

From the sound of it, Honda has implemented a system that is far inferior to Tesla's system. Maybe it does some things better. It definitely does other things not as well. There are no freeways on Maui, so a system that only works on freeways is useless to me.

My criticism of Tesla has to do with the way they marketed FSD before they understood how long it would take or what hardware it would require. Also their choice of a name ("autopilot") that is so misleading as to be dishonest. And a few items not related to this thread that I have posted about elsewhere. Bottom line for me: This is the best car you can buy today. And Tesla seems more responsive than any other car company, so we can continue to tell them what we like and what we don't like and they'll keep making their cars better.
 
I wasn't aware that Tesla has LDW when AP is not operating. I might have it turned on and don't know it. It does vibrate the steering wheel if I drive on the line without having signaled a turn. Is that LDW?

Having autosteer only above 45 mph would mean I'd almost never be able to use it here on Maui.

I would NEVER pay $6,000 to add the lane-change feature if I had plain AP. I am very happy with my choice to pay $5K (IIRC) for EAP. I guess it's disappointing that people now get almost what I have without paying the $5K, but then I got the $7.5K tax break. I also got the upgraded interior, which I didn't really want, but now that I have it I like it. Of course, when you pay the $6K what you're really paying for is the pig in a poke of FSD. You get the lane-changing, but you're paying for a car that will drive itself just as soon as they figure out how to do that.

And the Accord doesn't interest me because the bottom-line reason I bought a Tesla is that it's electric. All the rest, the EAP and the torque, is all just gravy. I'd probably still be driving my Zap Xebra if it had had double the range and wasn't so abysmally underpowered. Or a Leaf if Nissan hadn't treated me like sh!t for half a year after they had originally promised to deliver my car.
Yeah LDW now has an assist mode.
 
Yeah LDW now has an assist mode.

Meaning that it turns the wheel? Is this when AP is off?

Don't get me wrong: I love EAP, which I can override whenever I choose. I'm not sure I want the car swerving violently into the cyclist on my right because it thinks the shadow on my left is a car I was about to hit. The dancing cars on my screen do not inspire confidence in the car's ability to know where other cars are at this stage, even though some folks have opined that the car does know where other cars are but just cannot display them correctly on the screen.

Okay. I looked at the owner's manual. Lane Departure Assist is an option that can be turned on or off and is only "on major roadways with clearly visible lane markings." I'm not sure if any of the roads on Maui are considered "major." We have highways, but not freeways or limited-access roads.
 
LKAS and LDW are different. LDW just warns you if you attempt to change lanes without signaling or (on the MDX) if there is a car detected in the lane you are moving towards. LKAS uses the forward camera to keep the car in the middle of the lane. It works very good on the interstate. You must be going at least 45 to engage it if memory serves. You have to opt-in to it on every drive, it doesn't persist between drives.

I agree - the LKAS system in my wife's MDX works exceptionally well on the highways and do not disengage with an annoying ding every time I change lanes using signals (or any sounds to engage it). It just temporarily loosens the assist to allow the driver to freely make the manual lane change and goes back to steering itself in the new lane. Very well implemented and as far as usability is concerned, it's quite a few steps ahead the 'standard' AP. Oh and its TACC does not phantom brake..... and it has a dependable BSM system.

But it also burns gas, drives like a (comfy) boat and is slow as a snail. :D
 
Happened to me again yesterday in stop and go traffic and suddenly a hard break! Dude behind me flicked me off cause he saw nobody in front of my car. This is starting to be a safety concern, they should really see what causes it and issue a fix ASAP.
 
Happened to me again yesterday in stop and go traffic and suddenly a hard break! Dude behind me flicked me off cause he saw nobody in front of my car. This is starting to be a safety concern, they should really see what causes it and issue a fix ASAP.

I'm sure they're working on it as hard as they can. It's probably not an easy problem to solve, or they'd have fixed it a long time ago. FWIW, it's been months since I had a hard phantom braking event. I get the occasional very gentle braking event.