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Public Medium post about unionizing..
- Thread starter ohmman
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- Tesla Inc.
youlikeadajuice
P 9130
I don't appreciate your condescending remarks about my work ethic. I understand that you have had negative experiences concerning unions, and I don't dispute that, but to take your personal feelings and apply them as a universal rule is inaccurate. Maybe try improving your attitude.
Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
i appreciate work ethic, but despise this behavior
http://nypost.com/2013/05/28/labor-big-a-real-heavy-sleeper/
http://nypost.com/2013/05/28/labor-big-a-real-heavy-sleeper/
mmd
Active Member
UAW is not as bad as it is made to look by some. GM workers are quite happy with their bonus checks last year. Any chance Tesla workers noticed that? This article was published Feb 7th. Obviously, it has a bias towards employees vs. shareholders. But there may be a middle ground and a win-win scenario where everyone is happy 
GM Factory Workers Take Home $12,000 Bonuses On Record 2016 North American Profits
GM Factory Workers Take Home $12,000 Bonuses On Record 2016 North American Profits
Tam
Well-Known Member
"Musk said "the understanding" is that Moran was paid by the UAW to agitate for the union"
The information on whether Moran is paid by the union or not is a public record as unions are required to open their financial book to the public.
The information on whether Moran is paid by the union or not is a public record as unions are required to open their financial book to the public.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
Thanks! Yes, this was one of the articles I was referencing. There was another though, much older, from sometime in the latter half of 2010, I think... Unfortunately I haven't been able to find it, thought it was among my bookmarks, but it is nowhere to be found so far.
This article gave early history on the UAW's hopes for access at Tesla Fremont...
UAW presses Toyota, Tesla to hire union workers
This gives the union's perspective as of 2013...
UAW Looks to Organize Tesla | 1853 Chairman.com
Here is another one from last year...
UAW wants union for Tesla factory
I think this is fun:
In the Nordics the unions are highly responsible and respected organisations and cooperate with the leadership to improve the companies - from the employees perspective. Any business will have benefits from getting input from the employees. Our unions don't shoot themselves in the foot, but work together with businesses finding fair solutions e.g. if layoffs are needed.
Taylorism is not good for any business. A sick, injured or burnt out worker is not effective. On the contrary, a happy worker witch is treated with respect, without concerns for his own safety or well being, will usually give the biggest benefit from higher effectivity and quality of their work. And probably be more proud of his employer and hence more loyal to difficult strategic decisions.
Of course, a decent and responsible leadership group will understand this without a union, but unions balance the voice of the leadership group - especially if greed and disrespect for workers takes over.
Taylorism is not good for any business. A sick, injured or burnt out worker is not effective. On the contrary, a happy worker witch is treated with respect, without concerns for his own safety or well being, will usually give the biggest benefit from higher effectivity and quality of their work. And probably be more proud of his employer and hence more loyal to difficult strategic decisions.
Of course, a decent and responsible leadership group will understand this without a union, but unions balance the voice of the leadership group - especially if greed and disrespect for workers takes over.
Are Norwegian unions trade unions (skilled labor from a defined group) like the guilds that preceded the unions in Europe?
UAW in the US is state college student teachers, machinists, janitors, office workers, truck drivers, engineers, aerospace employees, farm tool workers, AND Autoworkers. In California non-auto workers vastly outnumber UAW auto workers.
How can a union fairly represent such a wide range of job needs? Paper cuts vs radioactive exposure vs wood chipper accidents vs robot safety. Pay from the lowest skills to the highest skills. Some of the UAW members are building particle beam accelerators and baby reactors.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
This is a highly protested article from Forbes, but I like it anyway. It does a good job of expressing the differences in Labor Union philosophy between the U.S. and Germany:
How Germany Builds Twice As Many Cars As The U.S. While Paying Its Workers Twice As Much
I just realized that was only an excerpt from a more lengthy article found here:
A tale of two systems | Remapping Debate
And here's a perspective on making the most of a new workforce from PBS:
What the U.S. labor force can learn from German manufacturing
The video that accompanies that article is quite nice too.
How Germany Builds Twice As Many Cars As The U.S. While Paying Its Workers Twice As Much
I just realized that was only an excerpt from a more lengthy article found here:
A tale of two systems | Remapping Debate
And here's a perspective on making the most of a new workforce from PBS:
What the U.S. labor force can learn from German manufacturing
The video that accompanies that article is quite nice too.
"Always try to associate yourself with and learn as much as you can from those who know more than you do, who do better than you, who see more clearly than you."
― Dwight D. Eisenhower, 'At Ease: Stories I Tell to Friends'
― Dwight D. Eisenhower, 'At Ease: Stories I Tell to Friends'
Yes, for most part, a Norwegian union represent one or a few educational groups. Physicians have one, nurses etc. Children school teachers are separate from college and university teachers though. Workers in retail are usually in the same union, while a lot of different engineers and IT-workers are together. But basically it reflects educational length and content.
On top of this we have confederations. Four for workers, three for employers for the whole nation. It is the confederations that are entitled to do the yearly negotiations of wages and other regulations. It is also not uncommon that a representative from the confederations are represented in the board. In most businesses, it is also the confederations that meet the leaders on a regular basis for discussion.
In addition, all businesses (excempt small ones) are required by law to have safety representatives, elected by the workers. Those are not representing the unions. Such a role, independent from the leaders, elected by the workers and with a obligation to inspect and speak up, could be the answer to your question?
Spot on about employees rights and having the ability to have representation in negotiating working conditions and compensation.
The issue here is that the UAW represents overwhelmingly the big autos which predominately produce gas motored vehicles.
This union inherently is not designed to represent an electric vehicle company employees which is a direct competitor for their product.
Their would have to be an electric vehicle worker union to be in the best interest of the electric vehicle maker, not a UAW.
In addition, there has been a significant establishment political shock with the election of Trump.For Elon to be on trump administration advisory group, is seen as a major no no to the opposition, which had been the establishment for a considerable time in government, this includes both republicans and democrats. There is considerable pressure on Elon to quit this group, and it is not inconceivable for opportunistic efforts to coalesce to send him a message to back out, aka the threat(as well as increased media coverage) of unionization. The big autos (and big utilities like Buffet/Koch) benefit by slowing down Tesla, as well as the trump opposition by muscling out any efforts to work with his administration by any business leaders.
Bottomline, a union should be an option for tesla employees. However, a new union must be formed that directly represents electric car manufacturing exclusively, not fall under a competitors union such as UAW.
In California the UAW mostly operates with university students who are paid for working. Nothing to do with cars at all.
Not sure how they would adapt to autos, but I guarantee you they will use California Auto Worker dues to eliminate California Auto Worker jobs. This is their history and legacy. The Democrats who currently run California do not want manufacturing in this state. The UAW uses the dues to insure democrats fill the elected offices.
All of them? In both the Assembly and Senate?
I haven't seen that on the platform, but you've shown me evidence before where I was skeptical. Let's see what you've got.
New UAW is not as bad as it is made to look by some. GM workers are quite happy with their bonus checks last year. Any chance Tesla workers noticed that? This article was published Feb 7th. Obviously, it has a bias towards employees vs. shareholders. But there may be a middle ground and a win-win scenario where everyone is happy
GM Factory Workers Take Home $12,000 Bonuses On Record 2016 North American Profits
And if the company has no profit, do the employees write a check? I do think profit sharing is a good idea. Need to make a profit.
The model 3 for employees first is also a nice benefit.
All of them? In both the Assembly and Senate?
I haven't seen that on the platform, but you've shown me evidence before where I was skeptical. Let's see what you've got.
Historical evidence would be the manufacturers in California who have relocated to other states. It's extremely expensive to relocate. You normally lose most your workers, and need to rework your supplier base and transportation concurrently.
So why the heck would a company move to another state? CARB gone nuts? High taxes? Wealthy singled out for taxation? Lack of vocational training at schools? Predatory tort focus against businesses? It's illegal to hire undocumented aliens, and it's up to you to validate citizenship which can no longer be done?
Since California is not proud of the fact, it's hard to get the data, and it would be colorized anyways.
I do not have a neutral source, just a pro-business one:
http://www.spectrumlocationsolutions.com/pdf/Businesses-Leave-California-.pdf
Thanks for the link. I agree, it's not neutral, but it is informative. It lacks context, for instance viewing other states' divestment events, especially since the document includes international divestiture.
California GDP continues to grow at a healthy pace and among states, is still very far ahead of Texas in second place. GDP doesn't tell the entire story, of course, and hides middle class stagnation among other things. I just say this to point out that tax and business "friendliness" are not the only drivers of economic desirability. Diversity, of ideas and nationalities, is a driver to innovation. This is one reason that the number one US location for divestitures in your document was Austin. I lived in Austin for two decades before moving to California. It's liberal, multicultural, and the hub of Texas innovation. I don't suggest that diversity is the only reason for their innovation, but it's part of it. Another is that they have a world-class university pumping out thousands of students that don't want to leave.
Either way, while I'm willing to cede to you in other threads, this time I think your claim that "The Democrats who currently run California do not want manufacturing in this state" is unsupported by your evidence. I imagine they would like it very much, but maybe under terms with which you (and others) don't agree.
the company will go bankrupt and the government will then screw the stock holders and bond holders by taking their value and giving it to the union.
see GM bailout.
