Random unauthorized Full self driving capability upgrade

[Sherlo]

Hmmm, you have a valid point. I am not sure what happens when there is no CC on file when SCing

Can't try - I still have free miles from referral for 3, and X has free SCing.

Tesla can answer

I didn’t have a CC on file during a road trip and was able to charge a couple times before getting an alert notification to add payment method.

 

[linux-works]

In the US, the Fair Credit Billing Act limits your liability for fraudulent charges to $50. Per the law, you have 60 days from the date you got an incorrect bill to make the claim but from a practical perspective, call them as soon as you discover something amiss. There are more details on the process and the deadline for you and CC in the link.

for those that claim 'this is the law' (etc) - just what do you DO when the bank makes a 'final' judgement against you and you know they don't have any evidence to support their case? do you really expect Mr Little Guy to sue a large bank? because that would be my only recourse once I've tried to explain to the bank/CC that these were not my charges.

the ONLY thing that got me off was the very lucky fact that I filed a police report and later that same week, they caught the 2 guys who were doing this (fairly large case, too; I'm told it was lots of locals in my area that all frauded by this gang; they had the master key to the shared mailboxes that the postman uses and they were selectively 'collecting' mail for quite a while, so this was a significant case and that was the only thing that caused my bank to overturn their charge against ME!)

you guys can quote how it 'should be' all you want, but I was facing some very large bills that I had nothing to do with and the bank wanted to hear nothing other than 'it was chip based, so you have no defense'. seriously.

if anyone wants more details, PM me. glad to discuss this; if I can save you this hassle in your life later on, I'm glad to help.

 

[Mysta]

for those that claim 'this is the law' (etc) - just what do you DO when the bank makes a 'final' judgement against you and you know they don't have any evidence to support their case? do you really expect Mr Little Guy to sue a large bank? because that would be my only recourse once I've tried to explain to the bank/CC that these were not my charges.

the ONLY thing that got me off was the very lucky fact that I filed a police report and later that same week, they caught the 2 guys who were doing this (fairly large case, too; I'm told it was lots of locals in my area that all frauded by this gang; they had the master key to the shared mailboxes that the postman uses and they were selectively 'collecting' mail for quite a while, so this was a significant case and that was the only thing that caused my bank to overturn their charge against ME!)

you guys can quote how it 'should be' all you want, but I was facing some very large bills that I had nothing to do with and the bank wanted to hear nothing other than 'it was chip based, so you have no defense'. seriously.

if anyone wants more details, PM me. glad to discuss this; if I can save you this hassle in your life later on, I'm glad to help.

They'll fix it, just keep bringing it up. The people you're talking to don't have the authority and it hasn't really been big enough to be a 'problem' but it is, 2fa or reauth needs to happen for something like that.

 

[mjptech]

Remember, it's not only their app that has issues... Their website will also double/triple/quadruple charge you as well - and the only recourse (as even mentioned by Tesla) is to charge-back on the credit card:

Tesla is either extremely incompetent, or extremely dishonest, or both.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

To those of you who received the unauthorized charges, have you ever set up a secondary contact to share your car with someone else? When Tesla recently added Upgrades to the app, I read that several people accidentally purchased an upgrade and were never prompted to confirm the purchase or enter a password. Could the secondary contact have made the purchase accidentally when poking around in the app? If you don't have secondary contacts, are you the original owner of the car or did you buy it used?

We have some shared cars on our account and have used the secondary contact feature to share our cars with others so that they can access and drive cars. In the past, it was isolated so the secondary contact could access the car but would not be able to access the main account or make any purchases on the account. I reported a bug to Tesla (via BugCrowd) where app users now have the Upgrades option available even if they aren't the primary account owner. I received a response that "the web page was working as designed" even though I specified it was the app, not the website that has the issue. Secondary contacts don't have the option to add upgrades via the website, just the app. I added more information and said again that it can't be intentional to allow a secondary contact to make purchases on the account but I never heard back. I changed my Play Store review down to 1 star due to this security feature. We sold a Tesla recently and used the secondary contact feature as usual to allow them app access to the car. Fortunately, the car was officially transferred to the new owner's account the same day the new "Upgrades" functionality was added to the app.

 

[Soey22]

the fact that tesla has management that thinks its ok to allow $7k mistaken charges on peoples' credit cards.

and then when called in that same day, acting like we're trying to cheat THEM.

oh, that's rich.

I would get a cc with a $500 limit just for Tesla. No way they can get getaway with outrageous charges with such a small limit.

 

[Stel]

Has this happened to anyone else. I noticed a 9600 dollar charge on my Visa card from tesla. I went to the app and the upgrade was done on Dec 24, 2019. My car has been on the shop for the last month from an accident. I know this can be done through the App but I certainly did not authorize this.

Called VISA and they said check with Tesla first. We shall see how this evolves?

Follow UP : Jan 3, 2020

My bank has advised me to make fraudulent transaction claim. Tesla told me they cannot reverse the charge. Unless a Gremlin hacked my account, I have no idea how this could have happened as the last thing as a physician I wanted was Full Self Driving. Like I need that liability. The only other way of adding the software is directly at the car and my car was in the shop at the time of the upgrade. I am sure people do this and decide I they don't want the service, but this was not case for me.

Tesla is making a huge mistake as they have essentially lost what would have been a loyal customer. I actually really like the car, but I cannot live with poor customer service or policy. I already canceled my Model Y and now today the Cybertruck I was getting for my kids to drive. Frankly I can afford this transaction as none of my vehicles have financing (3 are over 100K) including a 2018 911 Turbo S and a G wagon 4x4 squared. Also I just decided to take my allocation of a new G63 which I might not have done if I was not so annoyed with this experience. Their sticky position creates a pyrrhic victory which I suspect will eventually be remediated by my bank. As an aside the customer service agent I dealt with was actually quite pleasant but has no power to reverse the charge.

 

[MP3Mike]

I have no idea how this could have happened as the last thing as a physician I wanted was Full Self Driving.

I don't understand why being a physician would make you want FSD any less than someone else. But with you being a physician I am surprised that you think dealing with a little inconvenience is so horrible that you would rather drive cars that you are more likely to suffer from severe injuries in when you are in accident. (So your inconvenience is more important than the safety of your kids...)

 

[linux-works]

just curious - if you don't mind telling us. do you have a lot of apps installed? do you do the 'update thing' regularly and just take all recent updates?

I'm very security concious (that's one of my areas, at work) and I install almost no android apps, I avoid using mobile web (my phone is not rooted so I can't install safety firewalls, adblocks, javascript deniers, etc). the web is a nasty place these days and unrooted/unprotected phones are very vulnerable. installs of 'many apps' only adds to the risk.

its ok if you prefer not to answer. but I'd like to know if there is a security issue going on or something else.

 

[Stel]

just curious - if you don't mind telling us. do you have a lot of apps installed? do you do the 'update thing' regularly and just take all recent updates?

I'm very security concious (that's one of my areas, at work) and I install almost no android apps, I avoid using mobile web (my phone is not rooted so I can't install safety firewalls, adblocks, javascript deniers, etc). the web is a nasty place these days and unrooted/unprotected phones are very vulnerable. installs of 'many apps' only adds to the risk.

its ok if you prefer not to answer. but I'd like to know if there is a security issue going on or something else.

Good question. I am probably as fastidious as you on this matter. I update everything as soon as it comes out without exception. I have an iPhone with several Apps but nothing from from unknown developers. Most of my app are things like my home control camera (security) and of course the usual social apps

 

[linux-works]

actually, I hold off updating. more often than not, updates are 'changes' and I hate that android doesn't really have an 'undo' button for installs. you can uninstall but you cannot REVERT, which is a feature that they didn't include (on purpose, I believe). the whole android ecosystem is broken by design (as they say).

now, you are using an iphone so its not quite as broken as android. any changes (new apps or changed app behavior) in the last week or so?

I wonder if its possible to get 'logfiles' to prove that we pressed the 'buy' button. there should be transactions with unique id's that can show an audit trail.

my suspicion, now, is that this is ENTIRELY on tesla's side and there never was a 'click' on our phones that triggered this.

until someone has the ability to see the actual trace, its just tesla saying 'you bought it'. and none of us are willing to just take their word for it.

if your bank allows you to deny this charge, I guess that's that for your case. I'm also betting we'll never see any real proof that it was all on tesla's servers.

 

[Stel]

I don't understand why being a physician would make you want FSD any less than someone else. But with you being a physician I am surprised that you think dealing with a little inconvenience is so horrible that you would rather drive cars that you are more likely to suffer from severe injuries in when you are in accident. (So your inconvenience is more important than the safety of your kids...)

Very immature post by you. A little inconvenience to me might be devastating to another customer. A 9K hit is not a small amount of money and could be a big hardship for some! Your myopic view is partisan to the company and really not helpful to anyone . All companies will very soon have the same safety features and so the company that treats customers with respect will survive. Also I drove the car with the new software and it certainly is not that great and not worth the price

 

[MP3Mike]

All companies will very soon have the same safety features

I think it's funny that you think all the other car manufacturers are suddenly going to get it and redesign their cars for maximum safety in a collision. (And the switch to being an EV that would be required for that.) Software isn't the issue, it is the actual design of the car.

Porsche went so far as to build a replacement cage basically shaped like an ICE engine in their Taycan because that is how they know to deal with the impacts of a collision.

 

[MP3Mike]

My post is about being charged for something I did not buy not about all the stuff you are bringing up. If you think a company should have power to this you are wrong and brainwashed or possibly an employee or SH. When my VISA gets refunded I will post the image

I never said anything like Tesla should be able to force purchases, and if Tesla won't fix it having your bank reverse the charge is the correct thing to do. You may even end of with free FSD if Tesla can't manage to reverse things on their side.

While it seems this has happened to a few people it doesn't seem to be wide-spread, so there must be something else going on. Out of curiosity did you ever go into the upgrades section of the Tesla app? I'm wondering if maybe they picked up a phantom click on the upgrade button while scrolling or something. (Certainly not something that should ever happen.) Has this only happened to people with Android phones? Only iPhones?

 

[Stel]

I did go on this section of the app several months ago while exploring the App but certainly did not do this on XMAS eve. My car was in the shop at Tesla and so I had no reason to go on the Tesla App. I also called the shop on the 27 and they told me not to worry as the software was not on my car and that the car needed a module for it to updated anyway. I was under the assumption that it was impossible to update the car by the service advisor who spoke with me. When I got the unit back the upgrade was installed on my car with the last update!

As you correctly mentioned a company should not force a purchase on a customer --but it did to me.

This is time consuming and very disappointing that they did not just halt the update when they could. I have had some issues with this car already (and have given them the benefit of the doubt and was not critical at all) and like you I waved the Tesla flag and was almost an ambassador for the brand-- It is hard for me to comprehend the stance they are taking and cannot see how it benefits them.

 

[feigen66]

Agree with MP3Mike. There is no need to be angry at people here who were trying to help.

While 9K is large purchase, as long as sticking with credit card, I never had troubled to get my money back.

You can send your email copy to Tesla to bank as evidence that you have tried reasonable within your effort to resolve this issue with Tesla -- in this case it sounds like you did and failed.

The banks in 99.99% cases would be more than happy to revert the charge for you and it is Tesla's burden to prove that you actually have purchased FSD upgrade.

I had never encountered any trouble getting money back in my experience and my numbers were much bigger than 9K.

Also as a person who work in information security, it is probably something happening on your phone. I am not able to see your transaction log but we also did have customers complaining about phantom purchases which were actually security breach on their end.

Most people have false sense of security on their data including my wife. It might good to check out what's going on because it might happen on other non-Tesla occasion.

 

[feigen66]

BTW, it is a very good idea to file dispute charge against Tesla for unauthorized charge.

Each dispute, Tesla will get flagged by the major credit card companies. For each successful dispute, Tesla has to pay hefty penalty in addition to more expensive processing fee in future transaction. With enough incidents, this will definitely getting necessary attention. I had been dealing on both end as a vendor and as a customer. The last thing I want to do is to get disputed from the customers. I would rather give them full refund instead of filing rebuttal against the dispute.

While Tesla has a bigger financial team, filing rebuttal would still be a cost for them.

Anyway, for the large purchase I usually book keep all the email conversation, texts and screenshots with vendors -- as well as timeline of events -- in case anything go south, including taking my cars to service.

So far dealing with dispute on credit card purchase has been relatively hassle free and save my angry energy to something more meaningful.

 

[linux-works]

at the very least, the app should pop up a confirm dialog box. has anyone actually bought the upgrade (conciously, on purpose) - and can comment if there is or isn't a confirm dialog box after you click 'upgrade' ?

if its possible to buy with just one click, that sounds like the app developers and whole release team didn't think far enough to realize how dangerous this is. I don't believe they planned to 'steal our money' on purpose. it does sound like some software bugs, but we don't know enough about what platforms and what triggers could have caused it.

I do believe its irresponsible to allow customers to buy things with one-click and no confirm dialog box. hell, I'd have a captcha as a confirm box, just to slow down any automated click-pressers that might be running on 'your' phone (and I put 'your' in quotes since most phones don't really belong to the person who paid for them. that's quite another thread, though.)

 

[boriszima]

BTW, it is a very good idea to file dispute charge against Tesla for unauthorized charge.

Each dispute, Tesla will get flagged by the major credit card companies. For each successful dispute, Tesla has to pay hefty penalty in addition to more expensive processing fee in future transaction. With enough incidents, this will definitely getting necessary attention. I had been dealing on both end as a vendor and as a customer. The last thing I want to do is to get disputed from the customers. I would rather give them full refund instead of filing rebuttal against the dispute.

While Tesla has a bigger financial team, filing rebuttal would still be a cost for them.

Anyway, for the large purchase I usually book keep all the email conversation, texts and screenshots with vendors -- as well as timeline of events -- in case anything go south, including taking my cars to service.

So far dealing with dispute on credit card purchase has been relatively hassle free and save my angry energy to something more meaningful.

If bank reverses the charge, do you think Tesla will remove FSD? It should right, otherwise some people might take advantage of this.
@Stel - this is understandably disappointing to hear about Tesla. Hopefully situation gets resolved to your liking

 

[feigen66]

That's one way to force Tesla to correct their sh*tty software.

Remember early days of Apple App Store you can't even get refund from the purchased app and now there's grace period. After disputes and law suit Apple has improved their app store ever since. Now you can even refund in-app purchasing.

I bet the feature that linux-works suggested had been there on their bug bulletin for awhile but not on high priority. But with enough complaint (or external dispute), that will change otherwise it would be too costly to the company to ignore. It's just how human behaves and we are not perfect which require some nudge sometimes.