Rear Camber arms option - Hardrace

[Aggmeister2010]

You are conflating toe and camber, and over-estimating what camber feels like. These are not the reasons to not run zero camber.
It's kind of funny that you are worried about a car needing micro-corrections when this is exactly what front toe out causes. If you want heavier, more stable steering, you want toe in on both axles.

Actually, interesting that you bring up toe. It's something I've gone back and forth on. Right now I'm running toe out in the front to help with turn-in and reduce understeer...because I do use the car in AutoCross and Time Trial events. It's also the Tesla spec, but i don't really care about that.

I've considered doing a very slight front toe in, since you're right, that would give better high speed stability...but on the highway I rarely exceed 80 mph, so it didn't seem like that much of a big deal, and i didn't want to reduce performance at lower speeds and in technical runs. But perhaps I'm wrong - curious if folks are running front toe-in and how it's working out.

 

[dark cloud]

Just installed these links, and now am having second thoughts what direction they should be put on. Yes, the camber adjustment affects the ride height, but does not the ride height level itself?
I checked hardrace website, and they have a picture with the adjuster towards the inside, (lower) so that is how I put them on.
Thoughts?

 

[gearchruncher]

Yes, the camber adjustment affects the ride height, but does not the ride height level itself?

The car adjusts itself by reading the level sensors. When these are installed the way you installed them, the sensor changes when you adjust camber for the same height.
Does it matter? Maybe not.
They are easier to adjust from below the way you have them.
Tesla allows access to service mode now- I wonder if you can adjust height in there. It's got neat indications that help adjust front toe.

 

[dark cloud]

The car adjusts itself by reading the level sensors. When these are installed the way you installed them, the sensor changes when you adjust camber for the same height.
Does it matter? Maybe not.
They are easier to adjust from below the way you have them.
Tesla allows access to service mode now- I wonder if you can adjust height in there. It's got neat indications that help adjust front toe.

I turned them the other way. Getting good, took less than an hour. I set the camber lengths at 286 mm, compared to the 273 mm oem arms. Hoping for about -.7 to -1 degrees, I'll let what it specs out at from the non-Tesla alignment shop tomorrow.

 

[Aggmeister2010]

I turned them the other way. Getting good, took less than an hour. I set the camber lengths at 286 mm, compared to the 273 mm oem arms. Hoping for about -.7 to -1 degrees, I'll let what it specs out at from the non-Tesla alignment shop tomorrow.

They can still adjust the camber when doing the alignment, it's just more labor-intensive. They'll have to take the wheel off, adjust, and then recheck. TBH, though, it's not something that should add more than an hour.

 

[dark cloud]

They can still adjust the camber when doing the alignment, it's just more labor-intensive. They'll have to take the wheel off, adjust, and then recheck. TBH, though, it's not something that should add more than an hour.

Yeah, I told him I would take it back home and readjust and bring ti back if it was too far out, but no need. Looks like 286 was the correct length as I have -0.9 and -1.1 camber on low = perfect.
And the toe is now at -0.02 and 0.00 front, and 0.15 0.15 on the rear. Car feels fantastic. Best alignment I've ever had done.
Compared to the 0.16 and 0.14 front toe from Tesla 2 months ago, which made the car ridiculously loose on the icy roads. I can't emphasize how bad this made the car handle, almost undriveable. And they charged me $284 for this.

Thanks to @gearchruncher for starting this thread and the information it contains.

 

[Aggmeister2010]

Yeah, I told him I would take it back home and readjust and bring ti back if it was too far out, but no need. Looks like 286 was the correct length as I have -0.9 and -1.1 camber on low = perfect.
And the toe is now at -0.02 and 0.00 front, and 0.15 0.15 on the rear. Car feels fantastic. Best alignment I've ever had done.
Compared to the 0.16 and 0.14 front toe from Tesla 2 months ago, which made the car ridiculously loose on the icy roads. I can't emphasize how bad this made the car handle, almost undriveable. And they charged me $284 for this.

Thanks to @gearchruncher for starting this thread and the information it contains.

Very interesting on the front toe. I have mine at .10 out on each side because that's the factory spec, and it does feel like i have to make a lot of corrections. I understand that on AWD vehicles, toe out up front is due to the "pulling" effect of the wheels under heavy acceleration.....but i wonder if it makes sense for me to set my front to 0 as well...no wandering or anything?

 

[gearchruncher]

Toe out will make a car much less directionally stable. This can be good for performance, but bad for comfort. 0 is a good compromise, and of course it's best for tire wear too.

 

[dark cloud]

In or positive .1 to out or negative .2 is the factory spec, yes, but after having a "green" result at close to .2 someone must have made a mistake publishing these numbers. If the road was dry I didn't notice; many times I had my hands off the wheel (no autopilot) for several km just to check how I liked the caster adjustment, but on icy or really slippery snowy roads I thought I had a flat tire! Again, I can't begin to state how bad it was. I was lucky I didn't put it in the ditch! Like you state @Aggmeister2010, constant back and forth with the steering wheel just to keep it straight. I am very familiar with this car as this is my fifth winter season, with the same Nokian WRG4's as last year, and it has NEVER been like this.

For further confirmation I checked my alignment from a few years ago (different Tesla service centre) and it was set at -0.04 and -0.02. it was fine.

I thought there was a small chance it might be the rear, as it was bad from Tesla as well, at 0.30, but after having the toe out REAL bad from me putting on these adjustable toe links in the rear (it was 1.5 ) that felt different; you can feel the "dog walking" that is the rear trying to come around, which confirms it was the front toe measurement which made the car a hazard in the winter.

 

[npardo]

Hi all, I plan on swapping the Camber arms in my 2014 RWD S with these Hardrace ones and have a couple questions after reading through. I know some of these were mentioned throughout but hoping to cain more explicit clarity:

1. Is it still recommended to preload the suspension before torquing / is there any effect on the longevity of the pillowball bushings of not preloading the suspension. I know the first post said you can, but don't know enought about whether there is still a difference or not.

2. The negative Camber increases the lower the ride height, correct? If I ride in Standard mode 90% of the time, should I be targeting a lower default length for the arms than 290mm when I put them in to achieve ~0.8-1 degree at Standard height?

3. Has anyone noticed much of an effect on the ride feel with these pillowballs or is it not too different since they're only a small part of the overall suspension?

 

[Aggmeister2010]

Hi all, I plan on swapping the Camber arms in my 2014 RWD S with these Hardrace ones and have a couple questions after reading through. I know some of these were mentioned throughout but hoping to cain more explicit clarity:

1. Is it still recommended to preload the suspension before torquing / is there any effect on the longevity of the pillowball bushings of not preloading the suspension. I know the first post said you can, but don't know enought about whether there is still a difference or not.

2. The negative Camber increases the lower the ride height, correct? If I ride in Standard mode 90% of the time, should I be targeting a lower default length for the arms than 290mm when I put them in to achieve ~0.8-1 degree at Standard height?

3. Has anyone noticed much of an effect on the ride feel with these pillowballs or is it not too different since they're only a small part of the overall suspension?

1) Yes, that's a best practice for any suspension swaps.

2) Go with -1 degree at whatever height you use the most

3) Haven't noticed any difference whatsoever....i think any difference gets lost in 5000 lb of car.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

I ordered these last month to help correct the -2.5 camber that was wearing out my rear tires.
I was able to purchase them for $334 delivered to Seattle.

Mounting pictures and discussion in all the above postings helped a lot. Thanks to all.
Though they can be installed either way being symmetrical, put the adjustment side on the inside for having an alignment shop dial it in.
I did not end up needing adj toe arms.

For those in the Seattle area - I had TrueLine of Seattle perform the alignment. Doug there is easy to work with.

Q0601 https://hardraceusa.com/products/hardrace-q0601?_pos=1&_sid=396315af7&_ss=r

Hardraceusa.com
8049 Monetary Dr, Unit C2
Riviera Beach, FL 33404
USA

Ph: 561-844-1008
Fx: 561-828-9200

 

[Ron Burgundy]

I ordered these last month to help correct the -2.5 camber that was wearing out my rear tires.
I was able to purchase them for $334 delivered to Seattle.

Mounting pictures and discussion in all the above postings helped a lot. Thanks to all.
Though they can be installed either way being symmetrical, put the adjustment side on the inside for having an alignment shop dial it in.
I did not end up needing adj toe arms.

For those in the Seattle area - I had TrueLine of Seattle perform the alignment. Doug there is easy to work with.

Q0601 https://hardraceusa.com/products/hardrace-q0601?_pos=1&_sid=396315af7&_ss=r

Hardraceusa.com
8049 Monetary Dr, Unit C2
Riviera Beach, FL 33404
USA

Ph: 561-844-1008
Fx: 561-828-9200

Just a correction

The price delivered was $233, NOT $334.

 

[neilstafford]

You said “hole ends 290mm apart”, is this length from the end of bolt hole (orange line on the photo) or from the centre of the hole (white line on the photo)?
View attachment 762706

Hi, do you know what the standard OEM parts measure between the centres on the holes? Just setting up the exact same arms on my p85d. Standard OEM arms giving me -2.3 degrees of camber.. Wanting to get them to around -1.0 degree ideally. Just wondering if you know what the OEM measurement is for refference? cheers. Neil

 

[neilstafford]

Yeah, I told him I would take it back home and readjust and bring ti back if it was too far out, but no need. Looks like 286 was the correct length as I have -0.9 and -1.1 camber on low = perfect.
And the toe is now at -0.02 and 0.00 front, and 0.15 0.15 on the rear. Car feels fantastic. Best alignment I've ever had done.
Compared to the 0.16 and 0.14 front toe from Tesla 2 months ago, which made the car ridiculously loose on the icy roads. I can't emphasize how bad this made the car handle, almost undriveable. And they charged me $284 for this.

Thanks to @gearchruncher for starting this thread and the information it contains.

Hi, Can i just check some measurements with you so i can get mine setup the same? ( The attached is what I was going off before but think the toe is wrong compared to your findings ) ? So Front Toe you recommend - 0.02( negative ) to 0.00 ? and on the rear set at 0.15 ( positive ) ? Just want to make sure i am reading it correct. cheers. Neil

 

[gearchruncher]

Hi, do you know what the standard OEM parts measure between the centres on the holes?

Post 102 - I measure 183mm stock on a Model X.
Just 10 posts above yours, #144 measured 273. It might be different on newer/older cars or different models.
Don't you, umm, have the old one right there to measure?

 

[dark cloud]

Hi, Can i just check some measurements with you so i can get mine setup the same? ( The attached is what I was going off before but think the toe is wrong compared to your findings ) ? So Front Toe you recommend - 0.02( negative ) to 0.00 ? and on the rear set at 0.15 ( positive ) ? Just want to make sure i am reading it correct. cheers. Neil

That looks "correct", but I don't think Tesla correct is good enough.
I like the fronts as close to zero as possible for longevity, and I find no adverse handling because of it.
And yes +0.15 rears. Now truthfully + or _ .05 no-one is going to notice, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone got dead zero's on the front, drove around the block and immediately got it checked again and it be -.02 and +.03. 0.20 vs. 0.15 probably won't matter for the rears.

If I make one change next year I may go up a few turns with the camber to get them at -1.2 maybe -1.3 degrees on low setting; I get a little oversteer when I really push it, but I could live with the -.9 to -1 that I have.

Just measured the stock arm again; it is more accurate with this tape measure if I make the zero mark at a number greater than 3cm, 10 cm is a nice round number, so subtract 100 mm from this picture. Does it look like 282 or 283 mm to you?

 

[neilstafford]

Thats great cheers for the reply - I would say your closer to 183 ( 283 - 100mm ) - so assuming a stock arm, I have my adjustable ones set at 186 so will see what they are like.. Might need to move them to 190 if i am to run the car on low ( which i do ). Will have a play around with them. I will also set front toe to Neutral and rear toe to 0.15 degrees to see what it does.. Always found my car to be very ( floaty ) when at speed so definitely interested to see if this improves things a little.... and most importantly doesnt burn my rear tyres out every 1000 miles..

 

[dark cloud]

Thats great cheers for the reply - I would say your closer to 183 ( 283 - 100mm ) - so assuming a stock arm, I have my adjustable ones set at 186 so will see what they are like.. Might need to move them to 190 if i am to run the car on low ( which i do ). Will have a play around with them. I will also set front toe to Neutral and rear toe to 0.15 degrees to see what it does.. Always found my car to be very ( floaty ) when at speed so definitely interested to see if this improves things a little.... and most importantly doesnt burn my rear tyres out every 1000 miles..

You set them at 186 and your car will look like this:

 

[gearchruncher]

Always found my car to be very ( floaty ) when at speed so definitely interested to see if this improves things a little....

Floaty is shock tuning. Playing with camber and even toe isn't going to change this appreciably.