Recommendations for track wheels - 275 square set up

[BayAreaCelt]

Hello folks, Im looking at getting some track day wheels - a 275 square set up - ideally wheel weight around 20lb (or less!?) for my M3P - your recommendations are very welcome! I dont want a staggered setup - just my personal preference for track work.

Thanks in advance. Im asking specifically about the weight because a lot of manufacturers dont quote weights. Irritatingly. Cheers all.

 

[Davidss2]

Konig Dekagram/Hypergram

Track Tire/wheel Set Advice

 

[destructure00]

Konig Dekagram/Hypergram

Track Tire/wheel Set Advice

Yep! That's the cliffs version of that thread, I've been happy with my Hypergrams.

 

[BayAreaCelt]

Awesome will check that wheel out.

 

[BayAreaCelt]

Andddddddd it wont fit. I need 20"

 

[Rexpelagi]

Andddddddd it wont fit. I need 20"

Why do you want 20's? Also, wheel weight is really not something I'd worry about on these cars, as you are already at 4050lbs.

I have been happy with MRR M600 19x10 ET35 especially given the price - ~$1500/set (you can buy from multiple locations, I got mine from Sam at www.stranoparts.com) - they are relatively cheap, and just need a 3-5mm spacer on the front to fit (rear is fine). This is what I run with my 275/35R19 RE-71Rs. Note that if you are running a race tire it could be wider than mine, and may not fit as well.

 

[destructure00]

Andddddddd it wont fit. I need 20"

Why do you say it won't fit?

 

[BayAreaCelt]

to clear brake rotors - M3P - and my future big carbon brakeset. Lightweight wheels feel nicer to me due to rotational speed advantages and sprung/unsprung thing. Makes a massive difference on my mountain bike and my speed triple also when I went to carbon light wheels -im imagining the same physics applies to car wheels, except x 4....

 

[Rexpelagi]

to clear brake rotors - M3P - and my future big carbon brakeset. Lightweight wheels feel nicer to me due to rotational speed advantages and sprung/unsprung thing. Makes a massive difference on my mountain bike and my speed triple also when I went to carbon light wheels -im imagining the same physics applies to car wheels, except x 4....

FWIW, I stopped caring about wheel weight when I realized it didn't matter what wheel was on a Miata it was still horribly slow.

19's (and 18's) clear the Model 3 DM Performance Brembos without issue for me... I can't comment on your future carbon setup though.

 

[BayAreaCelt]

Copy that, thanks.

 

[destructure00]

to clear brake rotors - M3P - and my future big carbon brakeset. Lightweight wheels feel nicer to me due to rotational speed advantages and sprung/unsprung thing. Makes a massive difference on my mountain bike and my speed triple also when I went to carbon light wheels -im imagining the same physics applies to car wheels, except x 4....

Yep the Hypergrams and Dekagrams are confirmed to clear the P3D+ brakes. As above, no idea about your future big brakes.

 

[Davidss2]

to clear brake rotors - M3P - and my future big carbon brakeset. Lightweight wheels feel nicer to me due to rotational speed advantages and sprung/unsprung thing. Makes a massive difference on my mountain bike and my speed triple also when I went to carbon light wheels -im imagining the same physics applies to car wheels, except x 4....

Yeah on a 4000lb car you aren't going to be able to feel a few pounds of weight loss per corner. Not to disagree with you that losing unsprung and rotational mass isn't beneficial.

However what you are missing is rotational inertia. For example even if a 18" and 20" wheel weight the same the 18" wheel has way less rotational inertia. "Effectively" the smaller diameter wheel is lighter.

So getting carbon rotors and 20" wheels will probably offer less performance than 18" wheels and iron rotors. Combine that with the fact that 18" wheel and tires are cheaper and replacement brakes for the stock setup are massively cheaper. There really is no reason to go with 20"s for anyone who is really serious about going to the track.

But if you like the carbon big brakes for the street bling I totally understand...

 

[Davidss2]

I have been happy with MRR M600 19x10 ET35 especially given the price - ~$1500/set (you can buy from multiple locations, I got mine from Sam at www.stranoparts.com) - they are relatively cheap, and just need a 3-5mm spacer on the front to fit (rear is fine). This is what I run with my 275/35R19 RE-71Rs. Note that if you are running a race tire it could be wider than mine, and may not fit as well.

So what are your thoughts on a 10.5 or 11 wide wheel? Obviously it would fit on the back.

Also one other conversation that I don't think has been had is gearing. You're on a larger diameter 19 where a lot of us are on shorter 18s. At what point is there a trade off in gearing so we are losing thrust at 100+mph?

I just bought some 275/35-18s which are super short.

 

[Rexpelagi]

So what are your thoughts on a 10.5 or 11 wide wheel? Obviously it would fit on the back.

Also one other conversation that I don't think has been had is gearing. You're on a larger diameter 19 where a lot of us are on shorter 18s. At what point is there a trade off in gearing so we are losing thrust at 100+mph?

I just bought some 275/35-18s which are super short.

I've also wondered about the shorter tire - probably a trip to the drag strip would highlight the impact, but I haven't tried it with short 18's like that in a good A-to-B test.

Regarding the 11, if you run more tire you'd probably need a fender roll on stock camber, as there is some occasional rub on heavy compression even with the 275 on 10.5, but not enough for me to be concerned. If you go with a shorter tire, you might be ok, as I did have the 295/25R19 Kumho ACR on the 19x10.5s and it didn't rub anywhere.

Now that I have the MPP camber arms up front I'd need to take some measurements to see if it's tucked in enough to get an 11 on there - Ideally I'd like to fit 305 square - there's no issue in the back with the right offset from what I can tell, but the front is going to take some fiddling I expect, and I don't know if it's possible with the stock fender.

 

[BayAreaCelt]

But if you like the carbon big brakes for the street bling I totally understand...

Well I used to track my FTypeR with the big carbon set, and that was a big heavy girl, and even with the frankly massive brakes, upgraded pads and lines, etc. etc. it would still eventually fade off after a few laps of tight courses. It isnt for show, its for a portly car..at very high speeds. And because I can.

 

[Davidss2]

I've also wondered about the shorter tire - probably a trip to the drag strip would highlight the impact, but I haven't tried it with short 18's like that in a good A-to-B test.

Regarding the 11, if you run more tire you'd probably need a fender roll on stock camber, as there is some occasional rub on heavy compression even with the 275 on 10.5, but not enough for me to be concerned. If you go with a shorter tire, you might be ok, as I did have the 295/25R19 Kumho ACR on the 19x10.5s and it didn't rub anywhere.

Now that I have the MPP camber arms up front I'd need to take some measurements to see if it's tucked in enough to get an 11 on there - Ideally I'd like to fit 305 square - there's no issue in the back with the right offset from what I can tell, but the front is going to take some fiddling I expect, and I don't know if it's possible with the stock fender.

Which 19x10.5s did you have?

I have also thought about running staggered. We could fit something pretty massive in the back, although you might need a custom wheel to get the right offset.

Whenever my new 275/35-18s show up maybe I'll go do an ABA test at the drag strip against the stock 20s.

 

[FlyNavy01]

However what you are missing is rotational inertia. For example even if a 18" and 20" wheel weight the same the 18" wheel has way less rotational inertia. "Effectively" the smaller diameter wheel is lighter.

It's actually the other way around. The 20" wheel will have less rotational inertia. The extra rubber of 18's weighs more than the extra wheel of the 20's. Also that rubber being the furthest from the center of rotation compounds this problem even more.

While less wheel mass might not make a huge difference, it absolutely still does make a difference, especially considering the things we can do to make these cars more competitive around a circuit are more limited compared to ICE counterparts. Unsprung mass also has a significant impact on handling. If you're looking to get max performance at a track, there's no reason not to pay attention to wheel weight.

 

[Rexpelagi]

Which 19x10.5s did you have?

I have also thought about running staggered. We could fit something pretty massive in the back, although you might need a custom wheel to get the right offset.

Whenever my new 275/35-18s show up maybe I'll go do an ABA test at the drag strip against the stock 20s.

I'm running MRR M600 ET35 - need a 3-5mm spacer up front.

 

[Davidss2]

It's actually the other way around. The 20" wheel will have less rotational inertia. The extra rubber of 18's weighs more than the extra wheel of the 20's. Also that rubber being the furthest from the center of rotation compounds this problem even more.

While less wheel mass might not make a huge difference, it absolutely still does make a difference, especially considering the things we can do to make these cars more competitive around a circuit are more limited compared to ICE counterparts. Unsprung mass also has a significant impact on handling. If you're looking to get max performance at a track, there's no reason not to pay attention to wheel weight.

LOL...
285/30-18 27lbs 24.8" diameter
285/35-20 32lbs 27.9" diameter

For the second part of your comment you are correct that reducing unsprung weight does make a difference however even a few pounds of rotational mass per corner is NOT perceptible by feel to even experienced pro drivers.

 

[Davidss2]

I'm running MRR M600 ET35 - need a 3-5mm spacer up front.

You have mentioned running both 19x10s and 19x10.5s. So those are both the same MMR wheel with the same offset?