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Russia/Ukraine conflict

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Well you all seem very confident that you're right. I would love to live in that world but in reality this is a percentages game.

Anyway, I'm not going to convince you but I wanted the many (like me) that read this thread and have an opposing view and stay silent that it is not just confined to Twitter users.

I hope you are right. Of course, if I'm right, I won't get to say I told you so.
People are simply pointing out the arguments you made have already been applied since 2014 and have failed miserably. When Russia annexed Crimea, the western response was muted, and negotiations were made hoping they would stop there. Instead Russia launched a full scale invasion when they saw the west just keeled over in the past and let Russia annex territory. Far more people have died (including innocent civilians that were targeted on purpose) as a result of that failed negotiation. What is stopping Russia from doing the same thing again this time?
And no, I wouldn't want people dying to regain my lost property.
That's a fine position to be had, but the reason why it offended Ukrainians when public figures like Elon made it publicly is because he is not Ukrainian and does not represent their views. It's a view that does not recognize the thoughts of Ukrainians, but rather instead is a view supportive of Russia's long running arguments, including giving in to their demands simply due to nuclear saber rattling (which they had been doing throughout the conflict). It comes off not as someone concerned about the lives of Ukrainian people, but rather someone concerned about their own selfish goals (generally the world economy and its impacts on his own ventures, as you also alluded to in saying "so the world can worry about the next systemic challenge").

Ukrainians should be the ones to decide if they have had enough and want a cease fire. If they decide to do so from their own will, I doubt anyone here would oppose it. But it's insane to suggest them to give up and to not support them, when they themselves want to keep fighting.
 
People are simply pointing out the arguments you made have already been applied since 2014 and have failed miserably. When Russia annexed Crimea, the western response was muted, and negotiations were made hoping they would stop there. Instead Russia launched a full scale invasion when they saw the west just keeled over in the past and let Russia annex territory. Far more people have died (including innocent civilians that were targeted on purpose) as a result of that failed negotiation. What is stopping Russia from doing the same thing again this time?

That's a fine position to be had, but the reason why it offended Ukrainians when public figures like Elon made it publicly is because he is not Ukrainian and does not represent their views. It's a view that does not recognize the thoughts of Ukrainians, but rather instead is a view supportive of Russia's long running arguments, including giving in to their demands simply due to nuclear saber rattling (which they had been doing throughout the conflict). It comes off not as someone concerned about the lives of Ukrainian people, but rather someone concerned about their own selfish goals (generally the world economy and its impacts on his own ventures, as you also alluded to in saying "so the world can worry about the next systemic challenge").

Ukrainians should be the ones to decide if they have had enough and want a cease fire. If they decide to do so from their own will, I doubt anyone here would oppose it. But it's insane to suggest them to give up and to not support them, when they themselves want to keep fighting.
I wasn't going to reply and will stop now I think. But the selfish bit got to me. Firstly, selfishness or capitalism got us all here so that we can ponder on these concerns. Secondly, we are all united here on climate threat. Elon is rightly concerned about AI. These are not selfish concerns and neither is 490m Africans in poverty which gets zero airtime whilst this war continues.
 
I wasn't going to reply and will stop now I think. But the selfish bit got to me. Firstly, selfishness or capitalism got us all here so that we can ponder on these concerns. Secondly, we are all united here on climate threat. Elon is rightly concerned about AI. These are not selfish concerns and neither is 490m Africans in poverty which gets zero airtime whilst this war continues.
And is completely irrelevant to the conflict we are discussing. Misdirection and whataboutism instead of supporting your position.
 
notes




Russian equipment and personnel loss profiles suggest a force that is both under pressure and being disrupted


The likely exchange ratio suggests that Ukraine is prioritising hollowing out the opposition in a frugal manner, over simply acquiring land at high cost

 
...Firstly, selfishness or capitalism got us all here so that we can ponder on these concerns...
Yeah, great point. For the majority of human history that predated capitalism and for societies not participating in it there was no war, no authoritarians, no mass murder... :rolleyes:

Strange that post-WW2, led by Western rule based "order", this has had the lowest per-capita deaths from war by far in all of human history.

It's perfectly reasonable to criticize capitalism and any Western institutions - it is not without faults. But capitalism is not relevant here - just one of Putin's innumerable propaganda misdirection talking points.
 

Hinging the offensive on a collapse of Russian morale would be folly. Given enough time and pressure, it's highly likely that it will happen, but when is unknown.

I have seen in several places and it's a truism repeated throughout history that dictatorships look strong until everything comes apart at once. Russia will hold everything together and then there may come a breaking point where it all unravels in a matter of days.

Ultimately this war will end in Russia. Ukraine will not stop until the last Russian is off their territory and Putin can't back down now. In different ways it's an existential fight for both sides. For Ukraine it's a fight for the existence of the country and for Putin it's a fight to stay in power and possibly a fight to hold the country together.

Tell you what lets give the Russians all your property, land, machinery etc and that of all your closest relatives. Oh and they can keep any of your children they've already kidnapped.

All the Russians need to do in return is stop where they are for a year, regroup, then they can kick off again.

Sounds fair ?

The rest of the world tried to appease Hitler and Hitler just kept taking. We're in that same cycle again.

There are people who would want to take Putin's job who would be worse for the world than Putin. But Putin has the deadly combination of territorial ambitions beyond his borders and the means to build his own military. That combination is dangerous to the entire world order.

Putin has always had these ambitions, he has maintained the military presence in Transnistria, invaded Georgia in 2008, he's been undermining Lukashenko in Belarus for years, and Ukraine in 2014, but before 2022, he only took small bites. He did the boiling frog type of territorial grab and got away with it. His grabs were out of the headlines within a few weeks and things went back more or less to normal.

Now he crossed the line with a full scale invasion and the world is taking notice and not backing down this time.

I'm not sure what your point is. Are you giving Putin a discount for past performance, even though he is a mass murderer now ?

There is a difference between mass murder (Putin) and genocide (Hitler, Ukraine, Turkey etc) but the lines get blurry pretty quickly

Genocide actually has a broader definition than most people think. Last fall Timothy Snyder gave a lecture at Boston University about genocide and what it is.
The War in Ukraine & the Question of Genocide Featuring Professor Timothy Snyder | Elie Wiesel Center for Jewish Studies

What the Russians have been trying to do is genocide.

Actually Putin has a consistent track record of being this bad, the west just turned a blind eye. Grozny Aleppo etc- Horrible mass destruction and murder.

The previous massacres didn't get the media coverage that Ukraine is getting. Ukraine has been very savvy about making sure the war is in front of everyone's eyes.

I wasn't going to reply and will stop now I think. But the selfish bit got to me. Firstly, selfishness or capitalism got us all here so that we can ponder on these concerns. Secondly, we are all united here on climate threat. Elon is rightly concerned about AI. These are not selfish concerns and neither is 490m Africans in poverty which gets zero airtime whilst this war continues.

I don't really see where capitalism got us here. What got us here is refusing to see that Russia had territorial ambitions and failing to stop it early on. If the first time Putin acted outside Russia's borders he was thumped hard, he might have learned to be more cautious about sending his army outside Russia's borders and we wouldn't have gotten here.

Maybe capitalism did play a role in that so many in the west wanted to get back to business as usual that they turned a blind eye to what Putin was doing? They continued to do business in Russia despite the atrocities.

Arguing that there are other problems in the world is what-aboutism. All those other problems exist and they are also things we need to pay attention to, but an out of control dictator with a large army that wants to take over his neighbors is also a freakin big problem we need to deal with now or it's just a cancer that will get much worse.

Unless you were born before 1945, you have lived your entire life in the post WW II world order. It has become the wall paper to most people who don't study history. But it's an anomaly in world history. Throughout world history borders were fluid and kingdoms (later nation-states) poured a lot of energy into maintaining the borders they had, or shrinking their neighbors borders when they got an opportunity. The post-WW II order enforced by the United States was a new concept that turned out to be good for the world.

Russia has been straining that world order for some time and they broke it in 2022. Ensuring Russia does not get to keep any of its gains from the war is how we return to that world order.

Ukraine knows who they are dealing with far better than anyone in the west. They know what they are up against. They officially broke away from Russia in 1991, but most of the world still viewed them as a vassal state of Russia until recently. This war has highlighted that Ukraine is a separate nation (separate culture with separate identity) from Russia. They aren't just Russia-light, they are a separate people and a nation in their own right.

The attitude of the vast majority of Ukrainians at this point is that the can't stop until they get all their territory back. Zelensky has outlined other criteria such as reparations and return of Ukrainians kidnapped. Those should happen too, but are more problematic. Ukraine may have to settle for return of their territory.
 
I wasn't going to reply and will stop now I think. But the selfish bit got to me. Firstly, selfishness or capitalism got us all here so that we can ponder on these concerns.

It's perfectly reasonable to criticize capitalism and any Western institutions - it is not without faults.

I think Buckminster was praising capitalism, not condemning it. IOW, the virtues of capitalism created an environment in which we can discuss the Russia/Ukraine conflict at the Tesla Motors Club.

IMHO selfishness is rightly considered to be a sin. Treating it as a virtue brings out the worst in people and in capitalism. The Western neo-liberal creation of the Russian post-Soviet kleptocracy is a perfect example of how the "Greed is Good" approach to economics fails spectacularly.

I highly recommend Kropotkin's often overlooked Mutual Aid: a Factor of Evolution for a different approach that does not need to appeal to the worst in us.
 
There is a wide press release Lukashenko says he will not hesitate to use Russia's tactical nuclear weapons.

Is this Lukashenko a body double to coup Belarus? Who provided these photos to the press? Or they are holding him hostage in Russia (has he been to Belarus lately?)?

Actually the Lukashenko seen in Belarus seems more of a body double: Official website | Official Internet Portal of the President of the Republic of Belarus
 
Well you all seem very confident that you're right. I would love to live in that world but in reality this is a percentages game.

Anyway, I'm not going to convince you but I wanted the many (like me) that read this thread and have an opposing view and stay silent that it is not just confined to Twitter users.

I hope you are right. Of course, if I'm right, I won't get to say I told you so.

And no, I wouldn't want people dying to regain my lost property.
Let me start by saying, I respect your right to have a different opinion, so accept the pushback as not being personal. I for one am not 100% confident that I am right, but I am confident we have to take the risk, to stop Russia in a way that is a full defeat.

I am about to post a disgusting example of the barbarism that Russia encourages through its actions. This kind of behavior has to be stamped out. It’s not an aberration - there are two many examples of this already cited.

Here is the headline I saw in the tweet. The person speaking it is a UKR pyschologist treating soldiers.

She thought she was unshockable, then two castrated Ukrainian soldiers arrived​


 
Lukashenko may be in a worse spot than Putin.

As far as we know Lukashenko lost the last election before he fixed that, so his general population largely does not like him. Lukashenko continues to make more enemies and now has a neighbor to their south that deeply despises him and is now more capable than ever. On the other side, if he does not do Putin's bidding he gets nixed.
 
...] I am about to post a disgusting example of the barbarism that Russia encourages through its actions. This kind of behavior has to be stamped out. It’s not an aberration - there are two many examples of this already cited.

Here is the headline I saw in the tweet. The person speaking it is a UKR pyschologist treating soldiers.

She thought she was unshockable, then two castrated Ukrainian soldiers arrived​



It is allegedly "hundreds" of prisoners of war that have been castrated.

 
Well you all seem very confident that you're right. I would love to live in that world but in reality this is a percentages game.

Anyway, I'm not going to convince you but I wanted the many (like me) that read this thread and have an opposing view and stay silent that it is not just confined to Twitter users.

I hope you are right. Of course, if I'm right, I won't get to say I told you so.

And no, I wouldn't want people dying to regain my lost property.
There is one thing you and people who advocate a negotiated end to this 'war' are neglecting to acknowledge: Putin and his allies are eliminating Ukraines the same way Hitler and his henchmen were eliminating the Jews. It is not a matter of 'they will' or they are threatening to' - no they are doing it right now (see some posts above #11771 etc.). Any Ukrainian territory under Russian control is a Concentration Camp or at least in the same situation eastern Europe under German control was; all Untermenschen (Slavs, Jews) were systematically eliminated.
So, if that is what you want, if that is what Elon wants then keep on advocating for the premature ending of this war. The 'war' might end, the elimination of Putin's Untermenschen (Ukraines) will not unless Putin and his henchmen are eliminated.
 
There is one thing you and people who advocate a negotiated end to this 'war' are neglecting to acknowledge: Putin and his allies are eliminating Ukraines the same way Hitler and his henchmen were eliminating the Jews. It is not a matter of 'they will' or they are threatening to' - no they are doing it right now (see some posts above #11771 etc.). Any Ukrainian territory under Russian control is a Concentration Camp or at least in the same situation eastern Europe under German control was; all Untermenschen (Slavs, Jews) were systematically eliminated.
So, if that is what you want, if that is what Elon wants then keep on advocating for the premature ending of this war. The 'war' might end, the elimination of Putin's Untermenschen (Ukraines) will not unless Putin and his henchmen are eliminated.

There is a rather large difference between castration by the hundreds and murder by the millions.

Or even relocation by force. I never heard of the NAZIs abducting Jewish children in order to raise them as German.

If we call all murder by the hundreds or thousands "Genocide" then the world will become desensitized for when we ring the alarm bells when actual genocide is happening. The attempt to kill an entire nationality/ethnicity.
 
There is a rather large difference between castration by the hundreds and murder by the millions.

Or even relocation by force. I never heard of the NAZIs abducting Jewish children in order to raise them as German.

If we call all murder by the hundreds or thousands "Genocide" then the world will become desensitized for when we ring the alarm bells when actual genocide is happening. The attempt to kill an entire nationality/ethnicity.
That's like saying Nazi genocide wasn't that bad in 1941. Because ... what - they hadn't built the gas chambers and mass crematoriums yet?