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Russia/Ukraine conflict

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Cost effective drone killed tech is still evolving. Systems exist, but they are not available in enough numbers. The Gepard has proven to be one of the most effective anti-drone systems, but while 570 were built, I think a lot of them have been scrapped. The last one was built in 1980.

Germany has been able to cobble together about 90 for Ukraine. 52 have been delivered with another 45 in the pipeline to be delivered soon.

According to Wikipedia the operators at the beginning of the war in Ukraine were:
Brazil - 36
Jordan - 60
Qatar - 15
Romania - 36 active, 7 spare

The US purchased 30 of the Jordanian Gepards to send to Ukraine and the Germans bought back the 15 Qatari Gepards. There may be some in storage somewhere, but if Germany and the US are buying up Gepards around the world, there probably aren't many in storage or the ones in storage are in poor condition.

There are new systems under development to combat drones, but they aren't in production and even rushing to get something into production is going to take at least another year.
If one side is going to gain a significant advantage by having a really good anti-done weapon first, I would rather it is the Ukrainian side.

All of us on the NATO / ANZUS / QUAD / AUKUS side need really good anti-drone weapons as deterrent for future wars.

It is also a capability that Israel will need.

IMO we should have the motivation and there is a lot of collective brain power that can be thrown at the problem, including many countries with a strong track record in Miltary innovation.

One plus is that Ukraine is good at computer software, if the product is "software controlled hardware" the hardware can be fairly simple to assemble if all of the smarts is in the software, and swarms of cheaper drones can be effective even in each individual unit is easy to eliminate..

We should not sit on our hands and let the Russians or the Chinese develop this capability first.
 
It was big news for a couple of days when a USAF F-16 shot down an armed Turkish drone over Syria on Oct. 5th.
 
If one side is going to gain a significant advantage by having a really good anti-done weapon first, I would rather it is the Ukrainian side.

All of us on the NATO / ANZUS / QUAD / AUKUS side need really good anti-drone weapons as deterrent for future wars.

It is also a capability that Israel will need.

IMO we should have the motivation and there is a lot of collective brain power that can be thrown at the problem, including many countries with a strong track record in Miltary innovation.

One plus is that Ukraine is good at computer software, if the product is "software controlled hardware" the hardware can be fairly simple to assemble if all of the smarts is in the software, and swarms of cheaper drones can be effective even in each individual unit is easy to eliminate..

We should not sit on our hands and let the Russians or the Chinese develop this capability first.

A lot of countries are working on countering drones right now. The US alone is working on several different approaches. Once the best approach is found, then the system(s) need to be put into production. And it will take a while to ramp production. From what I've read a number of systems have reached the testing stage.

Russia's economy is pretty disrupted and they are behind the west in development. You can find articles from 2020 about anti-drone systems under development in the US.

Whether the new systems will be available in time for this war or not is up in the air.

It takes a long time to bring a new weapons system online. The bomber that became the B-36 was put into production in 1949. Development started in 1941. The first operational B-29 raid was conducted in June 1944, but development started in 1938. At 6 years development was rushed and the B-29 had a lot of teething problems throughout it's WW II service. More were lost to engine fires than enemy action.

The F6F Hellcat was a crash program to find a replacement for the F4U Corsair which was having problems passing carrier qualifications. Grumman started work on the Hellcat in 1938, it first saw combat in September 1943.

The US didn't field a single aircraft in WW II that started development after US entry into the war. The closest was the F8F Bearcat which was started in June 1942 just after Midway with input from pilots who had participated in the battle and the first combat unit was equipped with the Bearcat in July 1945, but the war ended before they made it to the front.

And there were immense pressures all around to push ahead no matter what with new weapons systems. That environment doesn't exist in the US today where members of one party would be happy to see the US government completely unfunded indefinitely. One US Senator is holding up all officer promotions as essentially a stunt.

Even under the best conditions peacetime development programs progress at a more sedate pace than in wartime. But the upside is the US does have a number of anti-drone systems in the prototype stages and as far as I know the Russians have nothing. On top of Russia being slow to get started, they also don't have access to the sophisticated electronics needed for one of the better systems. China doesn't make high end electronic parts, they just don't have the tech nor the technical skill in the country.

Making a smart bomb or a recon drone is not very difficult. China does make the electronics needed for that. Smart bombs are simple enough that I could probably design a workable smart bomb guidance system using off the shelf components and I haven't done much electronic design in almost 30 years (I've been mostly writing software). That's why the Russians were able to deploy a working smart bomb in less than a year.

Russia does have a lot of expertise in ground based air defense systems, but they tend to be tailored to direct missiles. They do have 30mm auto cannons, but the supply might be drying up. An AD auto cannon to take out drones would need to have a proximity fuzed shell (which the Gepard does have). I'm not sure the Russian auto cannons have a proximity shell available.

There are other weapons under development in the west which include EMP weapons to fry drone electronics, jammers to confuse the drone, cheap rockets with proximity fuzes, as well as gun solutions. These need to be mated with radar systems that are good enough to detect objects with very small radar signatures. Russian AD radar really isn't very good at detecting small radar signatures. Once the system detects a small object it needs to be able to distinguish between a drone and a bird. You don't want to waste your ammunition shooting down all the local birds. Birds do have different flight characteristics from drones, but the system needs to be programmed to figure this out and it needs to do so very quickly. That requires a fast, modern processor which the Russians can't get.

Quick reacting air defense systems are not easy to develop. Especially short range systems. The closer the target, the faster the system needs to work to do the firing solutions and launch. Jets at short range are a nightmare problem, a slow moving drone is somewhat easier target, but the system still needs to spot the drone (which is difficult), calculate the firing solution, and fire before the drone can attack.

Right now drones have the advantages over anti-drone technologies. The west has a lot of advantages in developing the anti-drone tech: large economies, access to the best tech in the world, and they have been working on this for a few years. Some prototypes may be available for deployment to Ukraine within 6 months to a year, but full scale production is at least two years off, probably longer.
 
I have agreed with Elon throughout on this war (and most other things...). However, this makes me a little nervous as I can't see it serves Ukraine's interests. Elon wouldn't need to remind us that he was right all along if he wasn't attacked from all sides. As I said yesterday, negotiations now just play into Putin's hands. A loss of all land for Ukraine is a loss for the west and encourages China/Iran etc. Had we negotiated some of the land back earlier it would have looked like negotiating on behalf of Ukraine and not the west (who have now propped up Ukraine big time).

More than ever I hope you guys are right and Ukraine is somehow winning this through attrition. I still am doubtful that Ukraine can win ~50% of the land back through fighting but maybe through negotiation in a year or two when Russia are weaker.
 
As misguided as Elon may be in regards to Ukraine's military campaign to liberate it's territory, I'm glad to see that he does seem to have the well being of Ukrainians in mind.

 
US and others are working on weaponizing vast numbers of drones. They could drop 10's of thousands of emp shielded drones over the enemy. Totall overwhelm any defenses. Each drone could independantly target people, vehicles, bunkers, electrical systems, water systems, command & control buildings etc. With thousands of these going independantly after different target and exploding everywhere at once, the battle damage could be paralyzing.
They could be launched by huge cargo planes, cruise missles, soldiers on the ground or ships. Could fly through open windows, inside tunnel entrances, through open tank hatches, or even down hallways.

Massive, highly precise and destructive.
 
I have issues with the highlighted sentence.

NATO hasn’t lost a thing; NATO is not at war with Russia.

If NATO was at war with Russia, there would have been air supremacy over Ukraine by this time.

Glenn Greenwald seems to have completely lost it.

In an appearance on Tucker Carlson Tonight, Greenwald expressed support for the Ukraine biolabs conspiracy theory.[139][140][141]
In 2022, the Security Service of Ukraine placed Greenwald on a list of public figures who it alleges promote Russian propaganda.
[142]
 
As I said yesterday, negotiations now just play into Putin's hands. A loss of all land for Ukraine is a loss for the west and encourages China/Iran etc. Had we negotiated some of the land back earlier it would have looked like negotiating on behalf of Ukraine and not the west (who have now propped up Ukraine big time).

There can be no negotiations, since that would be a lesson for Russia that it has won and it can continue to Poland.

If in doubt, watch a lecture on Russian war strategy by Finnish intelligence officer. The Russians retract only if they are defeated, otherwise they always only push forward.

 
There can be no negotiations, since that would be a lesson for Russia that it has won and it can continue to Poland.

If in doubt, watch a lecture on Russian war strategy by Finnish intelligence officer. The Russians retract only if they are defeated, otherwise they always only push forward.


I'm not so sure about Poland and the Baltics. They are a part of NATO after all. But I have no doubt that it won't be long before a Russia that continues to be a Military Dictatorship will continue to attack Ukraine. It will only be a matter of time. And they will probably also go after Georgia and Armenia. They will also of course do their best to continue to undermine Moldova and perhaps also Montenegro (granted, I don't really know that much about Montenegro...). And they will continue to prop up other Military Dictatorships around the word. So Syria, and various Military Dictators in Africa. And they will continue to try and benefit strategically from their relationship with the other major Military Dictatorship on the planet – China. And they seem to also have 'quite the crappy influence' on countries like Serbia, Hungary, Slovakia, Austria, Switzerland and also the Czech Republic.
 
You guys are in a very different space to me. On one hand you say Ukraine is winning, on the other, Russia will takeover Europe. This was a miscalculation by Putin. He would not have entered this war if he knew how difficult it was going to be. He thought it would be like Crimea. He has been embarrassed. His forces have been crippled. He has shown his military to be weak (not that old NATO equipment has exactly excelled). There is a less than 5% chance they will attack another country so directly in the next 20 years. He will know that the west won't let him get away with this. Russia will likely start towing the line in a non oil economy and under new management.
 
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You guys are in a very different space to me. On one hand you say Ukraine is winning, on the other, Russia will takeover Europe. This was a miscalculation by Putin. He would not have entered this war if he knew how difficult it was going to be. He thought it would be like Crimea. He has been embarrassed. His forces have been crippled. He has shown his military to be weak (not that old NATO equipment has exactly excelled). There is a less than 5% chance they will attack another country so directly in the next 20 years. He will know that the west won't let him get away with this. Russia will likely start towing the line in a non oil economy and under new management. [My u.]

1. Where's the guarantee that the Military Dictatorship that is Russia is going to come under "new management"?...

2. The Air Force is pretty intact. And how big is the Army as of now? 200-300K serfs that basically have a gun to their heads? And how much can they expand the army every year as a new cohort(?) turns 18?...

3. What makes you think it will be "less than a 5% chance" that a Russia that continues to be Military Dictatorship won't attack another country in 20 years time?!? They still have infantry. They still have their Air Force. They still have A LOT of S-300 missiles that can be used as ballistic missiles to attack ground targets. Does Georgia and Armenia have the Air Defences and Armed Forces that UKR has? It seems to me that all Putin or some other Russian Dictator needs to take over Armenia and Georgia is a *sugar* tonne of dirt cheap commercial grade drones and also a bunch of Shaheed drones or something similar, and then Putin or another Russian Dictator will be 'good to go'. And what do you envision the West will do about that? What has the West done this far to guarantee that Ukraine will win?...
 
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1. Where's the guarantee that the Military Dictatorship that is Russia is going to come under "new management"?...

2. The Air Force is pretty intact. And how big is the Army as of now? 200-300K serfs that basically have a gun to their heads? And how much can they expand the army every year as a new cohort(?) turns 18?...

3. What makes you think it will be "less than a 5% chance" that a Russia that continues to be Military Dictatorship won't attack another country in 20 years time?!? They still have infantry. They still have their Air Force. They still have A LOT of S-300 missiles that can be used as ballistic missiles to attack ground targets. Does Georgia and Armenia have the Air Defences and Armed Forces that UKR has? It seems to me that all Putin or some other Russian Dictator needs to take over Armenia and Georgia is a *sugar* tonne of dirt cheap commercial grade drones and also a bunch of Shaheed drones or something similar, and then Putin or another Russian Dictator will be 'good to go'. And what do you envision the West will do about that? What has the West done this far to guarantee that Ukraine will win?...
All this BS about Ukraine stalemated. They are grinding the fascists down. The more mobics killed the less Putler will be a threat to all of us in the future.
 
You guys are in a very different space to me. On one hand you say Ukraine is winning, on the other, Russia will takeover Europe. This was a miscalculation by Putin. He would not have entered this war if he knew how difficult it was going to be. He thought it would be like Crimea. He has been embarrassed. His forces have been crippled. He has shown his military to be weak (not that old NATO equipment has exactly excelled). There is a less than 5% chance they will attack another country so directly in the next 20 years. He will know that the west won't let him get away with this. Russia will likely start towing the line in a non oil economy and under new management.
IMO Ukraine is slowly winning the "attrition war" destroying Russian resources at a higher rate, but Russia keeps adding additional resources resulting in a slow grinding almost stalemate.

Drones are making it harder to achieve the element of surprise when attacking, shifting the odds more heavily in favour of the defenders and making it hard for either side to win quickly.

Mixed messaging for the west has given Putin some glimmer of hope that support for Ukraine may wane..

I think Ukraine may have one more ace up their sleeve, if they do, they will play it before the Russian election.

If Russia is able to carve out a victory, they will hope to rebuild and attack some other country next,, not Poland, Poland is too strong.

The Russian electorate still think they are wining and that winning will somehow improve their lives, there is a very slight change they are right on the former, but no chance at all they are right about the latter. Something that convinces the Russian electorate that they are losing might end the war, that is why if Ukraine has the card, they will play it.
 
US and others are working on weaponizing vast numbers of drones. They could drop 10's of thousands of emp shielded drones over the enemy. Totall overwhelm any defenses. Each drone could independantly target people, vehicles, bunkers, electrical systems, water systems, command & control buildings etc. With thousands of these going independantly after different target and exploding everywhere at once, the battle damage could be paralyzing.
They could be launched by huge cargo planes, cruise missles, soldiers on the ground or ships. Could fly through open windows, inside tunnel entrances, through open tank hatches, or even down hallways.

Massive, highly precise and destructive.

The reason this is not a likely scenario is the same reason every car on sale today is not electric. Any manufactured product takes time to get into production and electromagnetic shielding is not cheap or easy to make.

I work for a company that makes QA test equipment for the integrated circuit manufacturing industry. When an IC maker comes out with a new part, yields can be as low as single percentages. ie more than 90% of the production run is trash. The QA people use various tools to figure out why the failed parts are failed and then the engineers figure out how to improve the part to make it work.

Back around the time I started there they had a customer who was making parts to go on satellites and they were shielded to prevent damage from cosmic radiation, which is a similar process to EMP shielding. Functionally these parts were the same as off the shelf, simple ICs you could buy for pennies a piece, but the shielding increased their cost to $1500 a piece and they were made in very small numbers.

The shielding contributes to the insanely high prices for military grade electronics.

Production for these shielding drones is not online yet, and when it does come online these drones are going to be considerably more expensive than commercial drones. Even if built in large numbers a drone that is the equivalent of a $1000 commercial drone will probably cost more than $100K. Just like the expansion of electric car production is taking a lot longer than a lot of people would like, the roll out of drone manufacturing in the west is going to take time.

There can be no negotiations, since that would be a lesson for Russia that it has won and it can continue to Poland.

If in doubt, watch a lecture on Russian war strategy by Finnish intelligence officer. The Russians retract only if they are defeated, otherwise they always only push forward.


That Shusko translation is a year old, but I think it's more true today than it was then. Russians tend to get rebellious when they lose a war. The Russian people are more tolerant than most cultures when it comes to sacrificing for a war, but they need to feel the sacrifice was worth it. They are in a situation now where nothing short of T-90s rolling up on the English Channel are going to feel like enough sacrifice.

But the west can't let Putin get away with anything he can spin as a win. It's not just to teach Russia that it can't go invading its neighbors, but to tell other would be expansive dictators that the post WW II order is still in place and expansive wars will not be tolerated.

But the west is also very concerned about a Russian collapse scenario. A Russian civil war has an unpredictable outcome and there are many ways a Russian civil war could turn into a lot of problems outside Russia's borders. Among them Russian rebel groups capturing Russian nuclear weapons and selling them on the black market to raise money for their war effort. A destabilized Russia could also lead to opposition groups in other countries rebelling.

There is also a lot of concern that a Russian break up scenario or a Russian collapse scenario would let Russia or large parts of Russia fall under China's direct influence. If China had the ability to strip Russia of its natural resources at will, they would be very difficult to stop.

While western leaders are very concerned about China and they are a potent military threat now that will be growing in the next decade or two, China is ultimately going to have some very severe internal struggles. The one child policy has left them with a dramatically top heavy population pyramid. Within a decade they are going to have more people in retirement than of working age and it looks like the smaller population is going to be a mainstay because even with the one child policy gone, the people who were born under that policy are showing no interest in having many kids.

Their entire economy is going to shrink and the cost of labor is going to skyrocket which is going to take them out of the business making cheap stuff for the rest of the world. All the manufacturing jobs that require cheap labor are going to move to other poorer countries. China is trying to reposition into making quality goods, but they aren't going to have a price advantage and they will be competing head to head with European and American products.

China's economy could collapse under this weight. They probably aren't going to be doing great during this strain. But they are big enough that they could project a lot of power over Siberia and being able to rape the region for resources on the cheap would help them keep the plates spinning a while longer.

So the west is faced with conflicting goals over Ukraine. On the one hand no leader in the west wants to see Russia rewarded for their war in Ukraine, but on the other hand they don't want to see Russia collapse or fall into civil war because most of the consequences of a Russia collapse scenario are not very good. And at least some of those scenarios lead to a stronger China, at least for a while.

Personally I think it's time to rip off the plaster (band-aid) and deal with the consequences of a Russia loss scenario. Things will get unstable for a while, but the west probably could build alliances with the new countries in SW Russia and bring them into the European fold. Also if the US and other western countries make it clear they will buy and loose nuclear weapons at top dollar (or Euro, or Pound), then most if not all the weapons that fall into rebel hands could be secured and disposed up safely. China may get into that game too because it's in their interest to secure them. Any nuclear weapons used in south Asia or the Middle East could put radiation clouds over China.

I'm not so sure about Poland and the Baltics. They are a part of NATO after all. But I have no doubt that it won't be long before a Russia that continues to be a Military Dictatorship will continue to attack Ukraine. It will only be a matter of time. And they will probably also go after Georgia and Armenia. They will also of course do their best to continue to undermine Moldova and perhaps also Montenegro (granted, I don't really know that much about Montenegro...). And they will continue to prop up other Military Dictatorships around the word. So Syria, and various Military Dictators in Africa. And they will continue to try and benefit strategically from their relationship with the other major Military Dictatorship on the planet – China. And they seem to also have 'quite the crappy influence' on countries like Serbia, Hungary, Slovakia, Austria, Switzerland and also the Czech Republic.

Russia would struggle to attack NATO if they won something in Ukraine. The army is broken at this point and it's going to take a long time to rebuild. But one presidential candidate in the US has pledged to take the US out of NATO if he wins. That would badly weaken NATO.

The US had to be involved in the air campaign on Libya because the US is the only NATO country with the command and control network to coordinate NATO operations. Without the US NATO would have to rebuild the command structure from scratch. A broken NATO would be vulnerable from Russia. If the Baltics couldn't rely on outside help, they would not be able to stand against even a weak Russian army.
 
Personally I think it's time to rip off the plaster (band-aid) and deal with the consequences of a Russia loss scenario.
It is hard to see how this war can end in a draw, at present, one side has to lose, and Russia losing is a better outcome than Russia winning.

Neither side is currently interested in a negotiated settlement that hands the other side an easy win.

Never say never on a negotiated settlement, but I doubt that it can happen easily or quickly, nether side currently seems interested in a negotiated settlement that stops short of most of what they want.
 
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Just saw an interesting Wall Street Journal article on a new drone that Russia has started to use (unfortunately). As a result it, the US has sanctioned the firm and its principals.

It’s through Apple news, so I don’t have the source WSJ link. I will paste the apple link.

Here are some parts I copied, just in case it’s paywalled.

“This Russian Suicide Drone Is Blunting Ukraine’s Advance
KYIV, Ukraine—One of the scourges of Ukraine’s counteroffensive is an exploding drone with distinctive X-shaped wings that smashes into targets at more than 100 miles an hour.


In recent months, Russia’s Zala Lancet drone has repeatedly struck and disabled Ukraine’s Western-supplied armored vehicles that were supposed to break through Russian lines and turn the war decisively in Ukraine’s favor, according to Ukrainian soldiers and officials as well as videos posted on Russian social media.


On Thursday, the U.S. sanctioned the Lancet’s maker, Zala Aero. It also sanctioned the person it said was the company’s owner and the drone’s designer, Aleksandr Zakharov, as well as members of his family. The State Department said the U.S. was targeting individuals and entities associated with Russia’s war effort. Zala Aero didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.


The drones have been a key factor in preventing a significant Ukrainian advance. Combined with minefields, artillery and guided antitank missiles, they have formed a fearsome obstacle that has made the Ukrainians leery of deploying more than a couple of vehicles at a time...

The Lancet is particularly potent because Ukraine lacks a weapon that can effectively counter them, leaving soldiers trying to down them with small-arms fire.


Metinvest, a Ukrainian steelmaker, has started production of mobile shelters made from steel and chain-link mesh called “Lancet catchers” that can be placed over military vehicles and equipment. The company, and others, also manufacture decoys to lure the Russians to waste Lancets against fake weapons…

Since June, when the counteroffensive began, the commander says his positions have been hit between 25 and 30 times by Lancets, sometimes damaging the howitzers but not taking them out of action. His howitzers evade most drone action by simply hiding under trees and camouflage netting, he said. If they are damaged, the British-made M777s he uses are easy to fix, he said.


And some analysts say Russia has yet to perfect its use of the attack drones.


“The success of drones depends on how well it interfaces with soldiers and other military equipment, which Ukraine seems to be getting right,” said Steve Wright, who advises governments on drones and helps companies develop them.


For Russia, “it remains to be seen,” he said.“
 
It is hard to see how this war can end in a draw, at present, one side has to lose, and Russia losing is a better outcome than Russia winning.

Neither side is currently interested in a negotiated settlement that hands the other side an easy win.

Never say never on a negotiated settlement, but I doubt that it can happen easily or quickly, nether side currently seems interested in a negotiated settlement that stops short of most of what they want.

Ukraine is not going to give up and Russia does not have the military capability to take much more than a nibble of territory here and there.
It's a war of attrition until Russia throws in the towel.

Russia is making more weapons but they have pretty much exhausted their stores of usable weapons.
‘Russia Making More Weapons Than Before Full-Scale Invasion’ — Ukrainian Military Intelligence

Russia has been able to increase production in some areas, but they are also struggling in a lot of areas to increase production. One problem they have is they have no access to the machine tools they need to truly expand production of many weapons.