Russia/Ukraine conflict

[bkp_duke]

Are you talking about this video? ( Same video by the way)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1577752565839806472

https://twitter.com/x/status/1577754621422014473

Putin is about to have some big big problems on his hands. Guys like this are eventually going to make it back to their homes (assuming they live), and what they report back will be absolutely earth-shattering to those that have bought the party-line.

 

[nwdiver]

100 years. I'm embarrassed I didn't know this was Ukrainian until a few months ago.

 

[nativewolf]

I think what happens is that the chechens have started making a play for power and that in the near terms after Russia falls apart things could go south for them. No friends anywhere.

 

[bobby g]

It's key to keep focused on who is the aggressor, for sure.

The attack on Pearl Harbor is one of the biggest tactical blunders in history - definitely Japan's, at least (Hitler attacking the USSR was also ill-advised - but lucky for non-fascist democracy). Until that moment, there wasn't a politically acceptable threat to American freedom.

Adding nuance, though - the atom bombs weren't necessary to end the war, despite the propaganda afterwards. Some scholars suggest it was more a warning/signal to the USSR (and the beginning of the Cold War) than to create an effect on WW2. Germany had already surrendered, Japan was basically under siege and factions were already discussing surrender (the article I linked it goes into some excellent nuance).

The USA was already firebombing larger cities with greater loss of life, and from decoded Japanese communications the leadership barely paid any attention to the atom bomb - they were focused more on avoiding a soviet invasion (which turned out very poorly for after theGermany). If anything, the ethical mindset of the USA was likely that if any country deserved to be demonstrated on, it was Japan - so perhaps a retributive element at most. But already they could see that the USSR was a greater threat than the remnants of Japan.

Even after the bombs there was a mid level mutiny that wanted to fight on and while I used to wonder about the use of an atomic, especially two, I'm convinced they saved lives on both sides.

 

[SageBrush]

Antisemitism in Russia is 3x higher than Ukraine by this measure (below), and Ukraine has the lowest level in the region. Ukraine has made substantially more progress over the decades.

Ukraine participated in the genocide of its Jewish population in WWII. It is relatively easy for those born after the genocide to be tolerant, since there are only 5 - 10% left.

The “Holocaust by Bullets” in Ukraine | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans

The Holocaust in Ukraine represents the first phase of the Holocaust in which an estimated 1.5 million Jews were shot to death at close range in ravines, open fields, and forests.

www.nationalww2museum.org

Here is a reasonable excerpt from wikipedia. Ukraine started with 1.5 million Jews before WWII. It is now somewhere in the 50k - 150k range. Is genocide "progress" ?

More than one million Soviet Jews, of them around 225,000 in Belarus,[24] were shot and killed by the Einsatzgruppen and by their many local Ukrainian supporters. Most of them were killed in Ukraine because most pre-WWII Soviet Jews lived in the Pale of Settlement, of which Ukraine was the biggest part. The major massacres against Jews occurred mainly in the first phase of the occupation, although they continued until the return of the Red Army. In 1959 Ukraine had 840,000 Jews, a decrease of almost 70% from 1941 totals (within Ukraine's current borders). Ukraine's Jewish population continued to decline significantly during the Cold War. In 1989, Ukraine's Jewish population was only slightly more than half of what it was thirty years earlier (in 1959). During and after the collapse of Communism in the 1990s, the majority of the Jews who remained in Ukraine in 1989 left the country and moved abroad (mostly to Israel).[25] Antisemitic graffiti and violence against Jews are still problems in Ukraine.[26][27]

 

[KBF]

100 years. I'm embarrassed I didn't know this was Ukrainian until a few months ago.

It reminds me of the Singing Revolution: cultural warfare is extremely powerful, and in some ways is harder to fight against (it's difficult for the enemy/regular soldiers & police to view performers of art as subhuman animals that deserve to be slaughtered - much easier to justify cracking down on rioters than singers, though unfortunately it still happens...).

I live in Manitoba - our population consists of the highest # of Ukrainians per capita in Canada, and we benefit from their rich cultural heritage. Having a separate culture, a unique identity, is key to international support for independence.

 

[nwdiver]

apparently all those Ruzzian tanks were destroyed because they didn't believe hard enough

This is what happens when you start believing in 'alternative facts' and disregarding objective reality.....

 

[Rarity]

apparently all those Ruzzian tanks were destroyed because they didn't believe hard enough

This is what happens when you start believing in 'alternative facts' and disregarding objective reality.....

Thank you for posting this. He's right that the world is no longer unipolar. I don't believe that the US zeitgeist has taken this fully on board.

But it's interesting how little Russia is able to demonstrate this fact. I'm sure it's a big shock in Russia that the country is the new Sick Man of Europe.

 

[nwdiver]

I'm sure it's a big shock in Russia that the country is the new Sick Man of Europe.

Following Dugins 'logic' that's only true if they believe it to be true... so they don't believe it... therefore it's not true.

 

[iPlug]

Ukraine participated in the genocide of its Jewish population in WWII. It is relatively easy for those born after the genocide to be tolerant, since there are only 5 - 10% left.

The “Holocaust by Bullets” in Ukraine | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans

The Holocaust in Ukraine represents the first phase of the Holocaust in which an estimated 1.5 million Jews were shot to death at close range in ravines, open fields, and forests.

www.nationalww2museum.org

Here is a reasonable excerpt from wikipedia. Ukraine started with 1.5 million Jews before WWII. It is now somewhere in the 50k - 150k range. Is genocide "progress" ?

Yes, but not possible to elect the world's only Jewish leader outside Israel without a population reasonably tolerant. They have plenty of work to do, but that is real progress.

Comparing Ukraine to Russia, there is roughly the same percentage of Jewish population in both today. What is interesting is Armenia has a population of only ~500 but flags the worst on the antisemitism map posted.

It was horrible in eastern Europe, including Poland where ~3 million Jews were killed. It's a personal issue having lost family members in the Holocaust. That was the apex of the tragedy. It built off Pogroms in Ukraine during Russian rule (Fiddler on the Roof gives a glimpse of this). Russia should be held accountable for that and could have prevented those tragedies had they cared to. A few of my ancestors got the message and migrated to the States, lest those would have not made it through the Holocaust.

My father-in-law lost several family members in the Holocaust but left Russian Ukraine in the 80's due to antisemitism which was in large part perpetuated by the Russians at least as much as the Ukrainians. He saw the same throughout his travels deep into Russia where Jews were often considered second class citizens. Russia is not now nor has ever been supportive of Jews.

Institutions leaning towards democratic, however, then to foster tolerance and thoughts evolved beyond that.

 

[nativewolf]

Ukraine participated in the genocide of its Jewish population in WWII. It is relatively easy for those born after the genocide to be tolerant, since there are only 5 - 10% left.

The “Holocaust by Bullets” in Ukraine | The National WWII Museum | New Orleans

The Holocaust in Ukraine represents the first phase of the Holocaust in which an estimated 1.5 million Jews were shot to death at close range in ravines, open fields, and forests.

www.nationalww2museum.org

Here is a reasonable excerpt from wikipedia. Ukraine started with 1.5 million Jews before WWII. It is now somewhere in the 50k - 150k range. Is genocide "progress" ?

To be clear those of Jewish faith were the first to take advantage of the fall of the USSR and migrate and almost half of that decline was migration. Even before that Israel and USSR had a significant annual migration, hundreds of thousands. After the fall of the USSR they had a huge migration funded by various Jewish charities and the state of Israel. The Holocaust was terrible and evil but is not the sole reason for the decline.

 

[SageBrush]

but not possible to elect the world's only Jewish leader outside Israel without a population reasonably tolerant.

Of course it is possible. There is a short but well documented list of prominent 'Jews' in the upper echelons of the Nazi regime

The Jews in Hitler's Military

A young American is documenting the stories of hundreds of German veterans of Jewish descent. Many lost family to the Holocaust while serving the Nazi regime.

www.latimes.com

I don't know the particulars of Zelensky, but let me be polite and say that a vote for one exceptional Jew does not a genocide erase. The flip side of this for me is that those born after WWII are not their parents or grandparents. I don't wish them any ill-will, but I would not put myself in danger to help them, either. My support of UKR is a matter of proxy due to the threat that Putin/Russia represents.

 

[SageBrush]

To be clear those of Jewish faith were the first to take advantage of the fall of the USSR and migrate and almost half of that decline was migration. Even before that Israel and USSR had a significant annual migration, hundreds of thousands. After the fall of the USSR they had a huge migration funded by various Jewish charities and the state of Israel. The Holocaust was terrible and evil but is not the sole reason for the decline.

Correct. "Only" 70% of the pre-WWII population was exterminated.

In the USA context, that would be about 200 million men, women and children exterminated. But sure, you can focus on the tens of millions that escaped.

---
I don't see any reason to continue this discussion in this thread. I mentioned my personal support for UKR because I am aware of the threat Putin/Russia are to the world, and that is something all Americans should be able to get behind.

 

[iPlug]

Of course it is possible. There is a short but well documented list of prominent 'Jews' in the upper echelons of the Nazi regime

The Jews in Hitler's Military

A young American is documenting the stories of hundreds of German veterans of Jewish descent. Many lost family to the Holocaust while serving the Nazi regime.

www.latimes.com

From the article:

David Cesarani, professor of Modern European Jewish history at Southampton University, said that, beyond the volume of the research and the intimate details of particular cases, there is little new in Rigg’s work. And it is fundamentally incorrect, he maintained, to approach the soldiers as Jews.​

​

They “didn’t think they were Jewish and wanted to prove they weren’t Jewish by fighting for the Fuehrer. They wanted to be regarded as Germans,” Cesarani said. “Posthumously declaring them Jews is denying the way in which they defined themselves and conceding the way the Nazis defined them. It was their tragedy, but not the tragedy of the Jews.”​

 

[nativewolf]

Our own Dept of State was complicit in the deaths of tens of thousands of Jews during WWII. So was the govt of France, Germany of course, Poland, Switzerland, Italy, on and on. The exceptions stand out more- Denmark, Bulgaria being two. Are you condemning most of Europe ? Did Ukraine have some ugly history? Sure. Germany is so far worse. So was the USSR/Russia. Russia had defacto institutionalized racism bordering on genocide for centuries.

I don't see the merit in this track of conversation as Ukraine is no more or less guilty of being human than we here in the USA. You should see the history in my family closet (literal and figurative) and I am not exceptional I just had a great father that finally read the letters.

In Ukraine we have a charismatic young president and a clear fight for liberty and upholding the foundations that established the UN and so so much more. If he's Jewish and helps Ukraine overcome centuries of issues all the better.

 

[SmokyPeat]

Of course it is possible. There is a short but well documented list of prominent 'Jews' in the upper echelons of the Nazi regime

The Jews in Hitler's Military

A young American is documenting the stories of hundreds of German veterans of Jewish descent. Many lost family to the Holocaust while serving the Nazi regime.

www.latimes.com

I don't know the particulars of Zelensky, but let me be polite and say that a vote for one exceptional Jew does not a genocide erase. The flip side of this for me is that those born after WWII are not their parents or grandparents. I don't wish them any ill-will, but I would not put myself in danger to help them, either. My support of UKR is a matter of proxy due to the threat that Putin/Russia represents.

Every man who perpetrated those holocaust atrocities in Ukraine is dead. It was beyond awful, and it is long since over. It should never be forgotten, but holding bitterness toward a citizenry that didn't participate in those crimes is not sensible.

 

[iPlug]

Great documentary recently released by Ken Burns on the US and the Holocaust. But yes, we digress.

Watch The U.S. and the Holocaust | New Documentary from Ken Burns, Lynn Novick and Sarah Botstein | PBS

 

[nativewolf]

Correct. "Only" 70% of the pre-WWII population was exterminated.

In the USA context, that would be about 200 million men, women and children exterminated. But sure, you can focus on the tens of millions that escaped.

Oh please we killed far more than 70% of the black slaves we kidnapped and murdered to bring to the USA for a life of misery. Far far more- often only 10% of the ships "cargo" made it. Ask me how I know. Once here a life of slavery. That's our history. We killed more the 90% of the Native Americans. Gone. The trail of tears wasn't because the Indians cried ..it was because the white people that saw it cried (note they didn't stop it).

The Holocaust did kill more than 70% in Germany. Hungary, Lithuania, Slovakia, Poland, Latvia, all were worse than Ukraine. Again the exceptions are more notable - Bulgaria and Denmark.

I've had to find sleeping arrangements for grown Khemer men that could not sleep by themselves and needed someone to hold them all night. Grown men. Again, what about Latvian nazis or German nazi or Slovakian nazi or Romanian nazi or French nazis. ALL of Europe is complicit and we too in the USA, we could have done so much more but our Dept of State actively worked to stop intervention for Jews. We could have saved more Jews than were killed in the Ukraine. We can learn from history, we can't condemn the future.

 

[RobStark]

The Russian Empire mostly restricted Jewish residency to the Pale of Settlement which was mostly in Ukraine. But some parts were in modern day Belarus, Poland and Lithuania.

In 1928 the Soviets created the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in Siberia almost near the Pacific. They forced some Jews to move there, incentivized others, but in the end not very successful.

Even so their were pogroms in Russia proper. There just wasn't as many Jews to kill in Russia proper.

 

[madodel]

From the article:

David Cesarani, professor of Modern European Jewish history at Southampton University, said that, beyond the volume of the research and the intimate details of particular cases, there is little new in Rigg’s work. And it is fundamentally incorrect, he maintained, to approach the soldiers as Jews.​

​

They “didn’t think they were Jewish and wanted to prove they weren’t Jewish by fighting for the Fuehrer. They wanted to be regarded as Germans,” Cesarani said. “Posthumously declaring them Jews is denying the way in which they defined themselves and conceding the way the Nazis defined them. It was their tragedy, but not the tragedy of the Jews.”​

Many if not most German Jews had assimilated, many were non-practicing and considered themselves German and refused to believe that Hitler would do what he said he would do. Many did so right up to being herded onto the cattle car transport to Aushwitz or the other extermination camps. Those who served in WWI for the Kaiser wore their medals thinking they would be spared. They all went into the gas chambers regardless of their medals. What is good is that Germany continues to teach the truth about its past and there are museums all over Germany to teach about the evil. I've been to Dachau, which was the first concentration camp and not an intentional death camp. Standing inside the gas chamber there was disturbing, at least for me and it was supposedly never used, though there was still plenty of death to feed the incinerators without it. #DefenistratePutin