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Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

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When Elon talks about automotive production lines as-a-product he means designing and building the line with the same care, or more care than the cars they produce. Normally car factories are built using parts from catalogs. Elon specifically compared that to building a car using parts from existing cars, which would be a mess. So I'm not sure that he meant mass production of GF's when he used that phrase..

I listened to the relevant pat in the May-2015 TE event again, and in combination with the presentation during the GF opening event I think you have a point there.

Pity, would have been great to see GigaFactories being build as a Joint Venture between Tesla/Panasonic/VW.
 
Thanks much. I see from the following NVIDIA claims only 10 watt consumption on their website. Are we talking about a different gadget?

Autonomous Car Development Platform from NVIDIA DRIVE PX2

I'm beginning to think the application for Tesla to improve visual AP is duplicative of what Nvidia is proposing here, so I am off base on collaboration since Tesla seems to have developed similar "deep learning" for AP in house with the vast data set. Do I understand this correctly now?

Many thanks for your help.

Yes and no.

If you scroll down to the bottom of the page, nVidia shows the different configurations of the DrivePX2 platform. The 10W model is the basic, limited function board for highway driving.

The system gets substantially more complicated for the Autochauffeur and Autonomous Driving versions of DrivePX2.

It's also the software that runs on this hardware that matters. A simple set of algorithms for highway driving assist may be much less taxing than software designed to handle a much more diverse set of driving needs.

nVidia's solutions use general purpose System-on-Chip combined with 1 or more Graphics Processing Units (GPUs). These are likely more generalized hardware pieces than Mobileye's ASICs, which are designed to do 1 thing: run Mobileye's algorithms as quickly and efficiently as possible.

nVidia's graphics chips are first and foremost designed to handle 3D graphics. I tend to doubt that they are optimized for visual processing of camera and other sensor input, hence their higher power consumption.
 
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interesting, but my framework is more simple. the way I look at the market for tesla is as a percentage of WW battery production vs. WW battery demand. Between TE and EVs it looks like to me that battery supply is the critical bottleneck. That is, all the players looking to get into EVs or energy products will not find sufficient capacity in this time frame. This allows the battery manufacturers to increase price and take more of the end product margin.

As GF is ramping it looks like Tesla will have a major share of WW battery production over the next 5 years. GM, VW, BMW, etc. will not. Sure LG and others can ramp, but this will not occur in significant scale before 2018 as the auto manufacturers have not committed to fund. Same on the energy side. Maybe Siemens is/ will ramping, but they will consume their own production.

Longer term I do think WW production will grow, however I think energy and EV demand is in excess of battery production for at least the next five years and Tesla is in control of its own production, unlike every other player.
 
Just chiming in on the Solar City discussion. Lots of good points raised.

I think many (not all) of the concerns raised are what I would consider to be short-term or even "soon to be in the past" issues. If you are mad at SCTY management, concerned about how SCTY structured its PPAs or reported its finances, I don't think that will turn out to be relevant to Tesla Energy and Tesla Solar in the long term.

The CFO of Tesla Solar will be Jason Wheeler. The CEO and Chief Product Architect will be Elon Musk. The CTO will likely be JB Straubel. I think this will be like most mergers of unequals and many in existing management, especially at high levels, will find something else to do after a transitional period.

Pricing and sales models will be Tesla pricing and sales models. Jason Wheeler will be responsible for finances and financial reporting. The Chief Product Architect will be Elon.

I believe Elon is approaching this, as he does most things, from a long-term perspective in his role as Tesla's Chief Product Architect. Most of the discussion seems to be ignoring Elon's stated purpose for the merger, which is to create an integrated solar/battery product, with one point of sale, one installation, one service contract. From MP Part Deux:
Integrate Energy Generation and Storage
Create a smoothly integrated and beautiful solar-roof-with-battery product that just works, empowering the individual as their own utility, and then scale that throughout the world. One ordering experience, one installation, one service contact, one phone app.


We can't do this well if Tesla and SolarCity are different companies, which is why we need to combine and break down the barriers inherent to being separate companies. That they are separate at all, despite similar origins and pursuit of the same overarching goal of sustainable energy, is largely an accident of history. Now that Tesla is ready to scale Powerwall and SolarCity is ready to provide highly differentiated solar, the time has come to bring them together.​


Now maybe some of you will argue that an integrated solar/battery product is a dumb idea. Well, it is now a core part of Tesla's long-term business strategy so if that's what you think you might want to consider that your investment objectives are not fully aligned with Tesla's business plan. I personally think many people are missing the genius of this strategy, and the competitive advantages it will bring to Tesla.

Others have said, well ok I see the point of an integrated solar product, but why Solar City? Why not just develop an in-house solution or buy panels from someone else. There are several answers to that. The most obvious are the desire to move quickly in a market that is expanding incredibly fast, and to seize the immediate opportunity of 500,000-1,000,000 customers who are just primed to buy solar (iModel 3,S,X and Y customers) about to start streaming into Tesla's showroom and stores.

Another factor is that SCTY is by far the leader in residential installs in one of Tesla's key markets -- the U.S. If Tesla does not buy them, they will be competing with them head-to-head. Bringing a potential future competitor in-house makes much more sense than starting from scratch as a small player IMO. And, incidentally, I don't hear many people talking about the capital that would be required for Tesla to build a solar business from scratch.

I think many here are missing a big piece of Tesla's strategy, which is the halo effect of Tesla being able to sell an integrated system, solar, battery and vehicle, that is a beautiful, modern, high performance system that dramatically reduces the GHG impact from a person's home and transportation. Tesla wants to do for the energy side of the business what it did for EVs -- make a solar/battery product that is desirable, high performance, cost effective. Not a product solely for the eco-conscious, but the practical, the sensible and those who like to show off a little to their neighbors.

In my opinion the most valid concern that has been raised is the concern that SCTY's debt will overwhelm Tesla and jeopardize the Model 3 launch. But I have seen no evidence that this is in fact a major risk, and I believe concerns about this have been overblown. Is there zero risk? No, of course not. But Tesla has had no difficulty going to the capital markets and the Solar City merger is not going to change that.

At the end of the day, Elon is not afraid to take risks. If he were, we would never have developed the Roadster, the Model S, the Model 3, the Gigafactory, Autopilot, Tesla Energy, Superchargers, and the list goes on. There are many people who can't stomach Elon's willingness to take risks to implement his long-term vision. There is nothing wrong with that. But they may want to consider trimming their exposure to TSLA stock, because that just comes with the territory. And IMO it is a core reason Tesla has been able to make huge strides where others failed or didn't even try, and a core reason why I am invested heavily in TSLA.

Finally, I was skeptical bordering on angry when Tesla first decided to pursue TE because I thought it was a major distraction from their mission. Same with Autopilot, which I thought was another huge distraction, and that Google was so far ahead they couldn't possibly catch up. I quickly came to the conclusion that my knee-jerk reactions were very badly mistaken. I am not saying that Elon is "always" right; he's not. But there is no single person whose opinion and judgment I trust about Tesla's future more than Elon's.

Bottom line: To me, it is not at all difficult to see the value of this merger. IMO, as someone once said "it's a no brainer."

And even if I had doubts, I would trust Elon's judgment.
 
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MBLY will be the next GPRO, hard to base a $10 billion company on a single accessory that can be easily replicated by someone else.
Very interesting line in this article:
What to expect now that SolarCity has the keys to RiverBend - Strictly Business

"The initial production will involve about a quarter of the plant’s stated capacity – around 250 megawatts – and will be focused on a new solar roofing product that SolarCity is expected to unveil in the coming weeks."
Also, "......Those changes could lead to a significant increase in the capacity of the Buffalo factory."
 
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Just caught up (very time limited these days)- excellent discussion and many thanks to all participants- especially DaveT for inducement and thought prodding- well done

wanted to quickly give my perspective

Besides Neroden (and maybe a couple others), I haven't heard many people try to defend SCTY's debt/liability as non-toxic, and even with Neroden, I don't think he's really proven to me that their debt/liability is a non-issue to Tesla. I think it does affect Tesla, the question is how much. And that's difficult to know, especially when SCTY's finances are as muddled as they are.
I'm pretty much on record as an early significant holder of SCTY but pulled out many months ago due to the financial mis-match and business model compared to the vision expressed.

One difference in our views is: This was not opaque to me in their presentation. They were borrowing capital against future customer revenue to facilitate high growth. This made sense when there was clearly a 'Solar Industry Marketplace'. Although muddled in detail due to complexity, it was not muddled in size, scope, purpose or value imo. I agree it requires an extra layer of trust to extract leveraged future value back to present day for an unknown future. Exactly the reason to align the visionary source with the execution path. Musk was clearly the visionary founder and financial supporter with Rive executioner (probably in both senses of that word :) ).

Which is why I pulled out of SCTY long ago (as I see you are doing now induced by merger investigations - a good choice given your expressed concerns imo). I offered a (too lengthy)expose' of the basis for my investment positions (specific to the merger etc.) so won't regurgitate that here. But relative to this discussion- the short term financing of a long term underwriting produced a significant financial risk but more importantly that risk was massively compounded for a predicted disappearing market (the market of energy as a rented rate of use against a cost of centralized distribution).

I picked up that SCTY management was not very capable a couple years ago, but I reasoned that Elon was the ultimate mastermind and that he could fix SCTY. I just didn't expect him to try to fix SCTY at the expense of TSLA.
Why not?
Though I agree with this in spirit, I do not regarding the timing and scope as follows.
My investment thesis in TSLA and SCTY never considered them separate companies- They certainly were and separately investable with their own execution and value over a given set of months (why I pulled out of SCTY but not TSLA). But both exist and operate at the discretion of Elon Musk - almost exclusively. Neither of which are formed or operated against the short term goals verbalized by many - but at the direction and mission of Musk.

That is to establish sustainable energy use for the human race- all else is subservient to that mission (of course a successful profitable company is necessary to that mission- not talking philanthropics here). Tesla nor Solar City were about anything else. Right or wrong, agree or disagree, that' was my investment thesis from day 1 - they were (and are) wholly owned affiliated subsidiaries of Musk Co. SpaceX was the third but with a different mission.
from that perspective SCTY was always part of TSLA and it's formal merging was just a matter of time and convenance - at the pleasure of Musk vision. I anticipated this to be next mid-year with M3 well in hand. The merger now many interpret as a 'saving of SCTY by TSLA';
My view is and always has been, given who visions, owns, controls, strategically directs and missions, financially supports,
both- they have always been merged in all ways that matter. And now he wants (and feels has the time) to redress the direction against product (TE) visions
I view it as Musk confidence in M3 and ready to move TE into complete product for end user. It may well be influenced by SCTY financial timings etc. but those are peripheral (again my view of Musk world here)- as they were already merged in his mind against the same mission stated above. Or put another way- if this formal merger doesn't work, he'll just do it himself (take it private like SpaceX or some other solution)- because they are in his mind already merged and always have been.

Whatever financial/management issues you believe SCTY induces to TSLA have always existed regardless of this formality of merger. Elon financially supports SCTY debt/ directs SpaceX to do the same/couples Tesla Energy to SCTY/ etc. all of which balance against each other. Like it or not- he will move SCTY and TSLA TE together, in all aspects to form what he has in mind. I believe that Power as a Product, as I've described and will by necessity transition SCTY business model resolving the current financial disparities (i.e. sales on cash/bank loans/leases matching term lengths/etc.)

From my perspective the advice to a long view investor:
As long as Musk Co is operated by Elon- invest in what you think HE would do- given the clear and precise common mission of both:
Sustainable Power for Humanity (not selling cars, selling solar panels, selling batteries)
Keep in mind accomplishing this mission will involve (require) movement of industrial mountains.

Sure, I'd love Tesla to do it all. But I also know sometimes it's wise to build things one block at a time. I'd love for Tesla to nail the Model 3. Let it get to full production by mid 2018. And then, let's start talking about dominating solar energy/storage.
It doesn't matter what you would love Tesla to do- It only matters what Elon would love it to do.
opinion:
I don't believe this is what he would express and is antithetical to the stated mission objectives in scope and timing. I think he might argue that he is doing it 1 block at a time- but the blocks are much bigger when you're building a mountain instead of a pyramid.
[reminder:
he believes that in less than 20 years ALL new vehicles sold must be non-ICE; concurrently ALL Energy must source from non-FF]

Tesla might have an advantage if they can get an early start with the GF, but it's just a matter of time before other companies build larger and larger factories and compete with GF costs as well..

Also, it's about volume pricing. Panasonic gives Tesla it's best price because Tesla is a committed large volume buyer.

The main barrier to entry is competitive cell costs, and nothing is showing me that other companies can't get within reach of Tesla's GF cell costs, albeit it might take them a few more years

Again, Tesla has the edge due to its early start but their success (and/or market domination) is far from guaranteed.

re: Tesal/SC having competition (reducing available pricing power margins discussed)- these thoughts would portend a strategy to ramp up TE (a significant part of the GF and volumes of underlying materials if not specific cells)- as fast as possible; And to invest in vertical solutions - SCTY is exactly that- it's a piece part to the solutions set- Elon (imo) is moving panel BOM internal to TSLA production as he has done for many other parts. In this case he integrates the factory for the part (and more)

great discussion - thanks Dave and all others- gotta love it!
 
Just because we don't know all of the reasons doesn't mean that they don't exist. Elon said on the second SCTY explanation call that every institutional investor he explained it to is in favor of the acquisition. What didn't he tell the rest of us? One thing is probably new product information. Doesn't want to Osborn the current TE and SCTY products.

I initially thought that the supercharger network, the Gigafactory, and the using lithium batteries for storage (too expensive), were bad ideas. Now I believe that they are all crucial parts of Tesla's prospects going forward. This time I'm willing to give Elon the benefit of the doubt. I think that most of you should do the same.

With the previous decisions we understood a bigger percentage of the reasons than any of us do for the SCTY acquisition.

DaveT and Al, don't you think that if Elon's personal explaination convinced every institutional fund manager that if you had access to the same information that it would probably either change your mind or at the very least substantially reduce your opposition to the deal. Isn't it hubris to believe that your understanding is superior when you don't have complete access to all of the relevant information?
this is highly rational thinking, clearly, Elon has a future roadmap in his mind that he thinks SCTY assets will contribute to significantly
while i am not a blind cheerleader by any means, i am acutely aware of Elon's genius and i am not about to start second guessing a visionary CEO
 
NMC is popular because it has excellent durability and it's very stable which means it's less prone to fire and it handles heat well. Maybe the prismatic NMC cells can get a cost per kWh closer to NCA 18650-cells, but comparing NMC 18650-cells to NCA 18650-cells, the cost per cell will be almost identical. And with 67% more energy storage capacity in a NCA cell, the cost per kWh will be roughly 67% higher for NMC.

You use the same membranes, same electrolyte, pretty much the same anode, same metal sylinder, same production equipment, same people, etc. The only real difference is the cathode, where you use Manganese instead of Cobalt and Aluminium. I don't believe the raw material cost is significantly different.

Yes, NMC TE cycles have high cycle life. Something like 4,000 cycles. NCA by comparison has higher energy density but lasts fewer cycles.

TE cells will likely cycle once per day whereas typical car usage is one full cycle every few days.
 
Just chiming in on the Solar City discussion. Lots of good points raised.

I think many (not all) of the concerns raised are what I would consider to be short-term or even "soon to be in the past" issues. If you are mad at SCTY management, concerned about how SCTY structured its PPAs or reported its finances, I don't think that will turn out to be relevant to Tesla Energy and Tesla Solar in the long term.

The CFO of Tesla Solar will be Jason Wheeler. The CEO and Chief Product Architect will be Elon Musk. The CTO will likely be JB Straubel. I think this will be like most mergers of unequals and many in existing management, especially at high levels, will find something else to do after a transitional period.

Pricing and sales models will be Tesla pricing and sales models. Jason Wheeler will be responsible for finances and financial reporting. The Chief Product Architect will be Elon.

I believe Elon is approaching this, as he does most things, from a long-term perspective in his role as Tesla's Chief Product Architect. Most of the discussion seems to be ignoring Elon's stated purpose for the merger, which is to create an integrated solar/battery product, with one point of sale, one installation, one service contract. From MP Part Deux:
Integrate Energy Generation and Storage
Create a smoothly integrated and beautiful solar-roof-with-battery product that just works, empowering the individual as their own utility, and then scale that throughout the world. One ordering experience, one installation, one service contact, one phone app.


We can't do this well if Tesla and SolarCity are different companies, which is why we need to combine and break down the barriers inherent to being separate companies. That they are separate at all, despite similar origins and pursuit of the same overarching goal of sustainable energy, is largely an accident of history. Now that Tesla is ready to scale Powerwall and SolarCity is ready to provide highly differentiated solar, the time has come to bring them together.​

Now maybe some of you will argue that an integrated solar/battery product is a dumb idea. Well, it is now a core part of Tesla's long-term business strategy so if that's what you think you might want to consider that your investment objectives are not fully aligned with Tesla's business plan. I personally think many people are missing the genius of this strategy, and the competitive advantages it will bring to Tesla.

Others have said, well ok I see the point of an integrated solar product, but why Solar City? Why not just develop an in-house solution or buy panels from someone else. There are several answers to that. The most obvious are the desire to move quickly in a market that is expanding incredibly fast, and to seize the immediate opportunity of 500,000-1,000,000 customers who are just primed to buy solar (iModel 3,S,X and Y customers) about to start streaming into Tesla's showroom and stores.

Another factor is that SCTY is by far the leader in residential installs in one of Tesla's key markets -- the U.S. If Tesla does not buy them, they will be competing with them head-to-head. Bringing a potential future competitor in-house makes much more sense than starting from scratch as a small player IMO. And, incidentally, I don't hear many people talking about the capital that would be required for Tesla to build a solar business from scratch.

I think many here are missing a big piece of Tesla's strategy, which is the halo effect of Tesla being able to sell an integrated system, solar, battery and vehicle, that is a beautiful, modern, high performance system that dramatically reduces the GHG impact from a person's home and transportation. Tesla wants to do for the energy side of the business what it did for EVs -- make a solar/battery product that is desirable, high performance, cost effective. Not a product solely for the eco-conscious, but the practical, the sensible and those who like to show off a little to their neighbors.

In my opinion the most valid concern that has been raised is the concern that SCTY's debt will overwhelm Tesla and jeopardize the Model 3 launch. But I have seen no evidence that this is in fact a major risk, and I believe concerns about this have been overblown. Is there zero risk? No, of course not. But Tesla has had no difficulty going to the capital markets and the Solar City merger is not going to change that.

At the end of the day, Elon is not afraid to take risks. If he were, we would never have developed the Roadster, the Model S, the Model 3, the Gigafactory, Autopilot, Tesla Energy, Superchargers, and the list goes on. There are many people who can't stomach Elon's willingness to take risks to implement his long-term vision. There is nothing wrong with that. But they may want to consider trimming their exposure to TSLA stock, because that just comes with the territory. And IMO it is a core reason Tesla has been able to make huge strides where others failed or didn't even try, and a core reason why I am invested heavily in TSLA.

Finally, I was skeptical bordering on angry when Tesla first decided to pursue TE because I thought it was a major distraction from their mission. Same with Autopilot, which I thought was another huge distraction, and that Google was so far ahead they couldn't possibly catch up. I quickly came to the conclusion that my knee-jerk reactions were very badly mistaken. I am not saying that Elon is "always" right; he's not. But there is no single person whose opinion and judgment I trust about Tesla's future more than Elon's.

Bottom line: To me, it is not at all difficult to see the value of this merger. IMO, as someone once said "it's a no brainer."

And even if I had doubts, I would trust Elon's judgment.
Just chiming in on the Solar City discussion. Lots of good points raised.

I think many (not all) of the concerns raised are what I would consider to be short-term or even "soon to be in the past" issues. If you are mad at SCTY management, concerned about how SCTY structured its PPAs or reported its finances, I don't think that will turn out to be relevant to Tesla Energy and Tesla Solar in the long term.

The CFO of Tesla Solar will be Jason Wheeler. The CEO and Chief Product Architect will be Elon Musk. The CTO will likely be JB Straubel. I think this will be like most mergers of unequals and many in existing management, especially at high levels, will find something else to do after a transitional period.

Pricing and sales models will be Tesla pricing and sales models. Jason Wheeler will be responsible for finances and financial reporting. The Chief Product Architect will be Elon.

I believe Elon is approaching this, as he does most things, from a long-term perspective in his role as Tesla's Chief Product Architect. Most of the discussion seems to be ignoring Elon's stated purpose for the merger, which is to create an integrated solar/battery product, with one point of sale, one installation, one service contract. From MP Part Deux:
Integrate Energy Generation and Storage
Create a smoothly integrated and beautiful solar-roof-with-battery product that just works, empowering the individual as their own utility, and then scale that throughout the world. One ordering experience, one installation, one service contact, one phone app.


We can't do this well if Tesla and SolarCity are different companies, which is why we need to combine and break down the barriers inherent to being separate companies. That they are separate at all, despite similar origins and pursuit of the same overarching goal of sustainable energy, is largely an accident of history. Now that Tesla is ready to scale Powerwall and SolarCity is ready to provide highly differentiated solar, the time has come to bring them together.​

Now maybe some of you will argue that an integrated solar/battery product is a dumb idea. Well, it is now a core part of Tesla's long-term business strategy so if that's what you think you might want to consider that your investment objectives are not fully aligned with Tesla's business plan. I personally think many people are missing the genius of this strategy, and the competitive advantages it will bring to Tesla.

Others have said, well ok I see the point of an integrated solar product, but why Solar City? Why not just develop an in-house solution or buy panels from someone else. There are several answers to that. The most obvious are the desire to move quickly in a market that is expanding incredibly fast, and to seize the immediate opportunity of 500,000-1,000,000 customers who are just primed to buy solar (iModel 3,S,X and Y customers) about to start streaming into Tesla's showroom and stores.

Another factor is that SCTY is by far the leader in residential installs in one of Tesla's key markets -- the U.S. If Tesla does not buy them, they will be competing with them head-to-head. Bringing a potential future competitor in-house makes much more sense than starting from scratch as a small player IMO. And, incidentally, I don't hear many people talking about the capital that would be required for Tesla to build a solar business from scratch.

I think many here are missing a big piece of Tesla's strategy, which is the halo effect of Tesla being able to sell an integrated system, solar, battery and vehicle, that is a beautiful, modern, high performance system that dramatically reduces the GHG impact from a person's home and transportation. Tesla wants to do for the energy side of the business what it did for EVs -- make a solar/battery product that is desirable, high performance, cost effective. Not a product solely for the eco-conscious, but the practical, the sensible and those who like to show off a little to their neighbors.

In my opinion the most valid concern that has been raised is the concern that SCTY's debt will overwhelm Tesla and jeopardize the Model 3 launch. But I have seen no evidence that this is in fact a major risk, and I believe concerns about this have been overblown. Is there zero risk? No, of course not. But Tesla has had no difficulty going to the capital markets and the Solar City merger is not going to change that.

At the end of the day, Elon is not afraid to take risks. If he were, we would never have developed the Roadster, the Model S, the Model 3, the Gigafactory, Autopilot, Tesla Energy, Superchargers, and the list goes on. There are many people who can't stomach Elon's willingness to take risks to implement his long-term vision. There is nothing wrong with that. But they may want to consider trimming their exposure to TSLA stock, because that just comes with the territory. And IMO it is a core reason Tesla has been able to make huge strides where others failed or didn't even try, and a core reason why I am invested heavily in TSLA.

Finally, I was skeptical bordering on angry when Tesla first decided to pursue TE because I thought it was a major distraction from their mission. Same with Autopilot, which I thought was another huge distraction, and that Google was so far ahead they couldn't possibly catch up. I quickly came to the conclusion that my knee-jerk reactions were very badly mistaken. I am not saying that Elon is "always" right; he's not. But there is no single person whose opinion and judgment I trust about Tesla's future more than Elon's.

Bottom line: To me, it is not at all difficult to see the value of this merger. IMO, as someone once said "it's a no brainer."

And even if I had doubts, I would trust Elon's judgment.
i have to say this is clearly the best way to summarize this issue
i wholeheartedly agree
bottomline: the day i decide i don't trust Elon's vision is the day i will sell my TSLA shares
and i don't see it ever happening
 
i don't wanna detract from the whole spirited fundamental conversation about TSLA/SCTY merger but is it just me or TSLA is really looking pretty darn cool technically!
i see an inverse head and shoulders pattern developing on daily TSLA chart going back to summer of 2015
i think i will increase my exposure to TSLA common even more, maybe plunk down another $100 K in the stock on monday
i think regardless of the outcome of merger, good things are about to happen to this stock in short order

i can not help but note the striking similarity in current chart and TSLA back in 2012 just before it took off big time, my best guess, we're in a similar time frame as October 2012 when TSLA was trading at $27 or so
sure i could be wrong but i would not bet against the very high probability of TSLA simply shooting up severalfold from here and at the very least giving a highly satisfactory return over the next several quarters
now i don't have the nerve to add to my J18 calls which i.m down 50 to 60 % but i sure as heck wanna buy more TSLA common
good things come to those who wait!
 
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Just caught up (very time limited these days)- excellent discussion and many thanks to all participants- especially DaveT for inducement and thought prodding- well done

wanted to quickly give my perspective


I'm pretty much on record as an early significant holder of SCTY but pulled out many months ago due to the financial mis-match and business model compared to the vision expressed.

One difference in our views is: This was not opaque to me in their presentation. They were borrowing capital against future customer revenue to facilitate high growth. This made sense when there was clearly a 'Solar Industry Marketplace'. Although muddled in detail due to complexity, it was not muddled in size, scope, purpose or value imo. I agree it requires an extra layer of trust to extract leveraged future value back to present day for an unknown future. Exactly the reason to align the visionary source with the execution path. Musk was clearly the visionary founder and financial supporter with Rive executioner (probably in both senses of that word :) ).

Which is why I pulled out of SCTY long ago (as I see you are doing now induced by merger investigations - a good choice given your expressed concerns imo). I offered a (too lengthy)expose' of the basis for my investment positions (specific to the merger etc.) so won't regurgitate that here. But relative to this discussion- the short term financing of a long term underwriting produced a significant financial risk but more importantly that risk was massively compounded for a predicted disappearing market (the market of energy as a rented rate of use against a cost of centralized distribution).


Why not?
Though I agree with this in spirit, I do not regarding the timing and scope as follows.
My investment thesis in TSLA and SCTY never considered them separate companies- They certainly were and separately investable with their own execution and value over a given set of months (why I pulled out of SCTY but not TSLA). But both exist and operate at the discretion of Elon Musk - almost exclusively. Neither of which are formed or operated against the short term goals verbalized by many - but at the direction and mission of Musk.

That is to establish sustainable energy use for the human race- all else is subservient to that mission (of course a successful profitable company is necessary to that mission- not talking philanthropics here). Tesla nor Solar City were about anything else. Right or wrong, agree or disagree, that' was my investment thesis from day 1 - they were (and are) wholly owned affiliated subsidiaries of Musk Co. SpaceX was the third but with a different mission.
from that perspective SCTY was always part of TSLA and it's formal merging was just a matter of time and convenance - at the pleasure of Musk vision. I anticipated this to be next mid-year with M3 well in hand. The merger now many interpret as a 'saving of SCTY by TSLA';
My view is and always has been, given who visions, owns, controls, strategically directs and missions, financially supports,
both- they have always been merged in all ways that matter. And now he wants (and feels has the time) to redress the direction against product (TE) visions
I view it as Musk confidence in M3 and ready to move TE into complete product for end user. It may well be influenced by SCTY financial timings etc. but those are peripheral (again my view of Musk world here)- as they were already merged in his mind against the same mission stated above. Or put another way- if this formal merger doesn't work, he'll just do it himself (take it private like SpaceX or some other solution)- because they are in his mind already merged and always have been.

Whatever financial/management issues you believe SCTY induces to TSLA have always existed regardless of this formality of merger. Elon financially supports SCTY debt/ directs SpaceX to do the same/couples Tesla Energy to SCTY/ etc. all of which balance against each other. Like it or not- he will move SCTY and TSLA TE together, in all aspects to form what he has in mind. I believe that Power as a Product, as I've described and will by necessity transition SCTY business model resolving the current financial disparities (i.e. sales on cash/bank loans/leases matching term lengths/etc.)

From my perspective the advice to a long view investor:
As long as Musk Co is operated by Elon- invest in what you think HE would do- given the clear and precise common mission of both:
Sustainable Power for Humanity (not selling cars, selling solar panels, selling batteries)
Keep in mind accomplishing this mission will involve (require) movement of industrial mountains.


It doesn't matter what you would love Tesla to do- It only matters what Elon would love it to do.
opinion:
I don't believe this is what he would express and is antithetical to the stated mission objectives in scope and timing. I think he might argue that he is doing it 1 block at a time- but the blocks are much bigger when you're building a mountain instead of a pyramid.
[reminder:
he believes that in less than 20 years ALL new vehicles sold must be non-ICE; concurrently ALL Energy must source from non-FF]









re: Tesal/SC having competition (reducing available pricing power margins discussed)- these thoughts would portend a strategy to ramp up TE (a significant part of the GF and volumes of underlying materials if not specific cells)- as fast as possible; And to invest in vertical solutions - SCTY is exactly that- it's a piece part to the solutions set- Elon (imo) is moving panel BOM internal to TSLA production as he has done for many other parts. In this case he integrates the factory for the part (and more)

great discussion - thanks Dave and all others- gotta love it!

Thanks Ken (and others) for interesting personal insights/opinions.

My rather simplistic question to you: If EM has always felt SCTY/TM were in fact 'merged' whether they were legally or not and the real merger is a formality And that you feel if it fails he will take it private/personally: Why now. Wait 3-6 months and you will, IMO, be buying it for pennies and not dollars at a time when dollars (OK, I know it is a stock sale..but you get the point) are precious to TM?
 
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Your explanation is well supported by historical examples. Margins in a commoditized market are always low, and the "race to the bottom" is well known. The question becomes, how long? That is, how much head start does Tesla have?

I guess that's what it boils down to. However, that's where I think that Tesla (with SCTY) will have an advantage: they are already a good deal cheaper than others. Part of that is a bet on scale. Part of that is also since many solar players don't do energy storage and vice versa. I believe there is a good chance that we see happening in the solar + energy market what we have seen in the EV arena: a lot of competitors will announce products and never ship since they will be outdated / too expensive by the time they could hit the market.

Think of Audi's R8 eTron: while Audi spent years developing it, it was never released: it would have been more expensive yet worse than the Model S. Similar is true for the Mercedes SLS. Now think of Sonnenbatterie & Co.: of course they have Solar storage as well. But to much higher prices.

If Tesla can be for solar, what they are for cars: the BEST and the CHEAPEST (in their class of vehicles), then they will easily win in that market, too. And since cells are the biggest part of the expense (with the inverters as another important/expensive part, too) and since they are actively working on reducing the cost of both - I do see Tesla succeed in this market, too.
 
i don't wanna detract from the whole spirited fundamental conversation about TSLA/SCTY merger but is it just me or TSLA is really looking pretty darn cool technically!
i see an inverse head and shoulders pattern developing on daily TSLA chart going back to summer of 2015
i think i will increase my exposure to TSLA common even more, maybe plunk down another $100 K in the stock on monday
i think regardless of the outcome of merger, good things are about to happen to this stock in short order

i can not help but note the striking similarity in current chart and TSLA back in 2012 just before it took off big time, my best guess, we're in a similar time frame as October 2012 when TSLA was trading at $27 or so
sure i could be wrong but i would not bet against the very high probability of TSLA simply shooting up severalfold from here and at the very least giving a highly satisfactory return over the next several quarters
now i don't have the nerve to add to my J18 calls which i.m down 50 to 60 % but i sure as heck wanna buy more TSLA common
good things come to those who wait!

Not sure about head and shoulders, but it does look good. I see double bottom, beginning of V or U shaped recovery etc. Additionally, as it moves up, limited availability of shares to borrow will put pressure on weakest of the shorts to cover.
I dare not hope though, as TSLA is technically famously deceiving stock.

But one good is, while most stocks take stairs up, and elevator down, TSLA uses elevator both down and UP :)
 
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I must be getting desperate for Tesla to succeed on a personal level. Just put a deposit down on a killer deal for a 2 year lease on a refreshed P90DL. I can see the SA articles now - Desperate TSLA Longs Trading in 9 Month Old Cars in Last Ditch Effort to Avoid Bankruptcy.

It strikes me that as I was picking up my 90D last December I was joking with my OA that I was just doing my part to help TSLA hit 50k for the year. Now I am joking with him that I am doing my part to help TSLA hit 50k in a six month period.
 
Thanks Ken (and others) for interesting personal insights/opinions.

My rather simplistic question to you: If EM has always felt SCTY/TM were in fact 'merged' whether they were legally or not and the real merger is a formality And that you feel if it fails he will take it private/personally: Why now. Wait 3-6 months and you will, IMO, be buying it for pennies and not dollars at a time when dollars (OK, I know it is a stock sale..but you get the point) are precious to TM?
If Elon waited for SCTY to go BK and collect it for pennies on the dollar, he could have lost the Buffalo plant. NY state could have rescinded the $1/year lease on an almost a billion $ factory and gave it someone else.
 
Actually what Dave T is saying makes perfect sense assuming SCTY has more toxic debt than it portrays and/or management that can not be trusted. Just because I'm long a company does not mean that I become a blind cheerleader. Healthy skepticism always is good

Sure. But didn't they have respected firms handling this merger and aquisition price negotiation? So far the only mistake that has been announced is that they overestimated solarcity debt by something like $400 million if memory is correct. Could solarcity management pull a fast one on the legal merger team as well? That seems far fetched but I'm not a seasoned expert on these things either.
 
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If Elon waited for SCTY to go BK and collect it for pennies on the dollar, he could have lost the Buffalo plant. NY state could have rescinded the $1/year lease on an almost a billion $ factory and gave it someone else.

Agreed. But no one else really wanted SCTY at the price EM was willing to pay so I may be too glib in saying 'pennies instead of dollars' and he could have gotten it for much less....evidence: $17 now (probably inflated because they have made a bid) OR scenario #2...He may have convinced NY if SCTY went b/k that they would give TM a 'good deal' on it. Solar companies are not exactly in positions to buy it now

Any typos: sorry...tapping on the iPhone while trying to hide that fact as I have lunch with the family :)
 
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