Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Status
Not open for further replies.
"was going to quote the previous post, but the quoting mechanism is funky on mobile and can't get it to work.

Don't despair.

It is playing out exactly like the previous few times where they announced the need to raise capital.

Like before, the need to raise capital had been blasted throughout on this thread before the news media reports it.

Like before, uncertainty will persist until the actual raise.

Like before, the price that the capital raise gets done will be a very strong pivot point to trade with.
 
"was going to quote the previous post, but the quoting mechanism is funky on mobile and can't get it to work.

Don't despair.

It is playing out exactly like the previous few times where they announced the need to raise capital.

Like before, the need to raise capital had been blasted throughout on this thread before the news media reports it.

Like before, uncertainty will persist until the actual raise.

Like before, the price that the capital raise gets done will be a very strong pivot point to trade with.
And how long do you think that will take
 
A non-bull, non-fan-boy perspective: Tesla is putting guidance game on steroids while it is ever missing targets right in front of eyes. It is wiping out all near term targets of profitability/cashflow and is showing totally unrealistic shiny candy as the objective (which even Bulls have a hard time believing) for raising capital.

How did Musk think that market will take this up favorably? Pretty much none of the analysts believe the story. Many of the bulls are having a hard time believing it (including me). This is played terribly.

Edit: I wish things played out the way Julian expected. Show strong steady quarters, proving the Business out, while wiping the shorts out as a nice side effect and do the raise an a new ATH.
I think people have become delusional about Tesla's manufacturing capabilities because of the X. Throw whatever excuse you want to for that reasoning, but won't it be a bitch when they nail the Model 3 production and remember how Elon said all along, DO.NOT.RELATE.IT.TO.THE.X.
 
"was going to quote the previous post, but the quoting mechanism is funky on mobile and can't get it to work.

Don't despair.

It is playing out exactly like the previous few times where they announced the need to raise capital.

Like before, the need to raise capital had been blasted throughout on this thread before the news media reports it.

Like before, uncertainty will persist until the actual raise.

Like before, the price that the capital raise gets done will be a very strong pivot point to trade with.

Well I'm despairing pretty hard right now. I thought once the uneasiness of the ER pass, we'd get back to our daily DTU routine. I miss our daily 3-5% swings.
 
Edit: I have to say as a funny thing that just occurred to me. They said on the ER they would look for mostly bonds and some equity. And I thought - why even discuss equity when you are obviously tanking the stock? Then it just occurred to me that it would make a shead load of sense to meet the supplier teams in person and part pay them in TSLA options incentives effectively Covered by TSLA equity. In which case tanking the stock deliberately to give suppliers a motivational run up at upside from job start to job finish, and an implicit penalty of tanking their own TSLA options incentives if they are late or the work is shoddy. This is insanely, insanely, insanely outrageously brilliant. Like epic supply chain management innovation worthy of A Game Musk at full force.

Paying suppliers with options is inordinately difficult. These are not high margin businesses with significant cash surpluses. They have to manage their own cash flows and as smaller businesses they would tend to take less risk then Tesla, not more. Incentive targets are another story, but again these firms are not usually very savvy investors so would probably look to the Wall St. targets when calculating the value of any option based payments.
 
The ambitious plans will NOT be accomplished on time, which likely also means not on budget - time costs money. Therefore you will continue to talk about needing 'steak'. At this point I'm not sure why you don't just go buy yourself some by establishing more humanly possible dates, numbers and dollar figures, and invest according to them.

I think it's fair to say that most investors here want their holdings in TSLA to rise in value.

That won't happen until the investment community sees positive financial numbers, aka "steak".

From a historical perspective, TSLA hovered between $25-$35 from Spring of 2011 through Spring of 2013, because investment entities in aggregate weren't sure whether Tesla could successfully bring Model S to market. When Tesla managed to make a small profit and prove the viability of Model S in Spring 2013, that was the "steak" the market needed to drive up the stock price.

Now TSLA has traded in the $185-$280 range for about 2 years (Ignoring the panic induced by the China stock market earlier this year, as this was not really related to Tesla). Proportionally, this higher plateau is similar to the 2011-2013 chart. Elon and his team have been saying that free cash flow is their goal, and that's what I think Investors are looking for.

From yesterday's conference call, it would appear that Model X production problems have been mostly solved, with a Model X finally going through the production line once without needing remediation. If production is truly resolved, we should observe next quarter, substantially higher revenue and higher gross margins. Margins almost certainly took a big hit in Q1 due to the labor needed to correct errors in Model X units prior to delivery.

So, I will be watching the Model X ordering/delivery sub-forum here at TMC: Model X: Ordering, Production, Delivery

Specifically, I am looking at (1) Quality of Model X units delivered based on feedback of new owners taking delivery (2) Quantities, inferred from the VIN spread as well as activity in the "random sightings" thread.

This is the best evidence of possible "steak" delivery in July, when Tesla reports its quarterly unit numbers.
 
It is quite common in automotive for the customer to pay for supplier side tooling. Apart from anything else, this is the one way to guarantee the supplier does not use your tools to supply your competitor - or else.

It may not be necessary for Tesla to literally cash flow much or even any of this up front but I think it would be quite important to show suppliers that Tesla is in a healthy position to be able to pay once the job is completed - and to do that before the job starts. Otherwise they would effectively be asking suppliers to speculate on TSLA - which they could do instead of making any tools if they were in the business of stock market speculation and not automotive tooling.

Suppliers are set up to speculate that their competence is up to the task of meeting specifications and deadlines on parts. Not on whether customers will have good stock market conditions to raise the cash to pay them if they succeed.

Edit: I have to say as a funny thing that just occurred to me. They said on the ER they would look for mostly bonds and some equity. And I thought - why even discuss equity when you are obviously tanking the stock? Then it just occurred to me that it would make a shead load of sense to meet the supplier teams in person and part pay them in TSLA options incentives effectively Covered by TSLA equity. In which case tanking the stock deliberately to give suppliers a motivational run up at upside from job start to job finish, and an implicit penalty of tanking their own TSLA options incentives if they are late or the work is shoddy. This is insanely, insanely, insanely outrageously brilliant. Like epic supply chain management innovation worthy of A Game Musk at full force.

Either have the cash balance at hand or pay a prepayment has the same effect, though. They need to have it. This might also be a reason for moving more to vertical integration.

As for the last part... Nice theory but low margin businesses are risk averse so I think this is very unlikely.
 
I'm going to be a contrarian here and posit the short-term bear case.

IMHO, Tesla badly managed the earnings report. The truth is, after the delivery report was released in April, no one was going to be surprised with their quarterly revenue and loss. In fact, they came pretty close to hitting analysts' targets on that. If they had just taken that lump, talked about how Model X production was straightened out now, and say they're still on track for year-end numbers, this would have been a ho-hum report (given that Tesla had already dropped ~30pts in the past few days).

I actually think all this talk about moving forward volume production by 2 years is a *negative*. First, it's wildly unrealistic, and I say this as someone who believed in their gigafactory when they first announced it :). We've seen over the past 3 years that the best they can do with ramping production is ~60%/yr. Even that may be too much given the quality problems seen on the Model X (and even the first year vintage of the Model S). And that is with being FCF negative the whole time, and doing fairly large capital raises every 1-2 years to fund expansion.

Now ~60% is very impressive, but Musk is essentially promising >150% expansion every year for the next few years to hit 500k in 2018. Without details on how he's going to do that, I'm very doubtful Tesla will get even close to that number. Manufacturing capacity isn't *just* about throwing money at the problem. You need to hire people, train them, debug production lines, work with vendors, manage logistics, etc. etc. etc. It's like the classic quip that a manager is someone who thinks 9 women can create 1 baby in a month. While it's amazing that Musk has managed`a 60% growth rate so far, that has been a struggle. Do I think he can essentially double that rate of growth? No. Not without a more concrete plan with details.

So his proclamations of 500k in 2018 don't do anything for me. He can promise the moon but I need to see details. OTOH, I *do* believe the rest of his statements, mainly that he'll be FCF negative the rest of this year, and that he's going to raise capital to increase massively increase capex.

So short-term, this is a net negative, while long-term it is potentially a positive (although really no more positive than before; who didn't think Musk was going to expand production as rapidly as humanly possible and introduce the M3 as early as humanly possible?). And I say potential positive because with all the increased spending, he's *increased* the short- and medium- term risk of insolvency. Remember Keynes's famous quote "the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent". While Tesla's long-term prospects are great, it still has to get there from here. Expanding as rapidly as Musk is talking about (expanding Fremont, opening new plants worldwide, doubling production every year, expanding Powerwall, completing the Gigafactory) makes it much riskier that he runs out of money before all the investments bear fruit.

There have been lots of companies with great long-term potential that spread themselves too thin, and expanded faster than was prudent, and went BK before they could realize their long-term potential. Tesla is already showing strain right now (FCF negative, issues ramping production on MX, quality control, vendor management, even burning out senior executives is not a good thing). Setting a goal of moving twice as fast, and taking on additional debt, etc. to do it is risky.

Don't get me wrong: I'm rooting for him, and if he succeeds, world domination is two years closer :) So I remain long-term bullish. But he has significantly increased the downside risks over the short- and medium- term. Maybe it pays out in the end (I hope so), but the stock price today and probably over the next few days, I think is accurately reflecting a re-evaluation of all that Musk has said.
Are you under the impression that "units" are all alike? But M3 is priced at half the S/X. Cost is less. Materials too. Of course, margin and profit. All things are not equal.
 
You forget one important signal.
In an unique way Andrea James gave us a very bullish perspective on TSLA.
Being an analyst didn't allow her to invest in the stocks she followed.
For reasons unknown to us, she chose exactly this ER date to switch to another career that does allow her to invest in TSLA.
Yes, I also thought that could be a very strong bullish signal. I did notice her absence from the CC and that someone else from Dougherty called in. She strikes me as an extremely smart and grounded person. I wish her much success now that she is able to invest in what she knows better than most.
 
Paying suppliers with options is inordinately difficult. These are not high margin businesses with significant cash surpluses. They have to manage their own cash flows and as smaller businesses they would tend to take less risk then Tesla, not more. Incentive targets are another story, but again these firms are not usually very savvy investors so would probably look to the Wall St. targets when calculating the value of any option based payments.

Not the suppliers. The actual teams of people working on Tesla's project at supplier locations. As stated on EC - Musk is meeting them personally. What I have said makes perfect sense. If you can't understand this please don't haze those that can - and would benefit from understandjng this point. It's significant.
 
Either have the cash balance at hand or pay a prepayment has the same effect, though. They need to have it. This might also be a reason for moving more to vertical integration.

As for the last part... Nice theory but low margin businesses are risk averse so I think this is very unlikely.

The first point is negotiable, the last point you misunderstood. I think it highly probable and reasonable to deduce that Musk is incentivizing supply side staff and managers directly with TSLA options - or that this is the equity component of the plan. For this to be at its most effective the stock needs to be low at the outset, not high!

This is not something to misunderstand on principle!
 
Not the suppliers. The actual teams of people working on Tesla's project at supplier locations. As stated on EC - Musk is meeting them personally. What I have said makes perfect sense. If you can't understand this please don't haze those that can - and would benefit from understandjng this point. It's significant.

You mean the suppliers employees would get paid by Tesla in options? That would go against their hiring contracts with the supplier. Maybe the board would have authority to get paid by another company, but that's it. So I assume you mean the supplier would agree to let their employees be paid with Tesla's options?

If you mean Tesla employees working at the supplier then I don't see how that would matter at all as all employees at Tesla has stock based compensations.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.