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Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

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But again, look at the trusts which SolarCity still holds themselves where they *didn't* do this. Here lies the big problem. For some of these they were financed by 6-month loans. This is no good. The main risk for SolarCity *sudden bankruptcty* (as opposed to just, well, doing poorly, which could happen for a number of other reasons) was that they would be unable to refinance these at reasonable rates for 20 years.

I think the 6 month loans were basically for new installs. These new installs would then be packaged into a group for one of the solar equity financing. Because the equity financing are asset backed, they cannot be presold (i.e., before the actual system has been installed) so SCTY needed a bridge financing mechanism for new systems during this time.

When I look through SCTY financials I see that most debt is of the asset backed, non-recourse type. This shouldn't be a worry. However before they were able to shift to the asset backed debt they took on more traditional recourse debt. To me it is unclear how much of that debt was for systems installs and how much was for corporate growth. The delta is the risk.
 
Regarding competition, I guess we'll just choose to disagree on this. I see competition coming sooner (within 2-3 years) than later (5-10 years). Mainly because I think it's all about the costs, and LG Chem has proven they can build cells at low cost. Cars like the Audi electric SUV (Audi will launch 300-mile fully-electric SUV in 2018), we could have considered vaporware. But now with the Bolt and it's low-cost cells, we need to take Audi's electric SUV seriously, in my opinion. I think it will be good competition for the Model X. We'll see. As long as they can get the cost down (which it appears LG Chem has succeeded in doing), I think Audi can make good electric cars. Same goes for BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, etc. I think it's only a matter of time before all these manufacturers get into the game and come out with long-range EVs. And I think those cars will be competitive. I'm not selling they will outsell Tesla. Just saying there will be competition.

I agree competition will come soon, though competition will be a good thing for Tesla, because a bigger competition is against the ICE cars and oil industry. Also, the overall market to electrify all the vehicles is enormous, even if Tesla only takes 20% of the market, it's already huge revenue.

And Tesla is well positioned as the lead in both EV, battery manufacturing and Autonomous driving, so far, it's hard to find a competitor that excels in both areas.

Personally, I think Tesla will become the biggest and best manufacturing company in the world (or maybe the entire solar system), producing EV, battery, solar roof/siding/panel, robots, and also humongous space ships to achieve Elon's dream to colonize Mars, Tesla factory will be all around on the Earth, in the space, on the Moon, and on Mars...
 
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SCTY now has short-term *non-recourse* (asset-backed) debt for the new installs. (The "revolving aggregation credit facility"). That's great. This debt is backed by the new installs until they're transferred into the trusts. Some of the earlier new installs were backed by non-recourse term loans; personally I think these were still problems because they need refinancing, but one of them has already been refinanced (May 2016) and the December one probably won't be much of a problem either.

So, Musk said, the only real issue in the debt listing is the recourse debt. Let's look at that. *If the merger goes through* I am not worried about the bonds due in November 2018 or later, as they will certainly be refinanceable by Tesla. (If the merger doesn't go through, that's another matter.) The car loans are immaterial.

So the rrefinancing issues *if the merger goes through* are the short-term "Solar Bonds" and the recourse "secured revolving credit facility". As well as the need to finance the ongoing cash flow bleed. I do believe there is a clear plan for the ongoing cash flow issue *if the merger goes through* and it should be pretty simple.
 
Second, in the dark scenario I mentioned, yes TSLA would drop due to the recession and Model 3 issues, but the drop would be further accentuated if SCTY debt was more toxic than SCTY management has let on. In fact, it could erode a lot of the remaining confidence in TSLA's financial position. And push them to the brink. Without SCTY debt and problems, TSLA is fairly secure w/little risk of being pushed to the brink even in a recession.

Regarding SCTY's debt, it's just really difficult to access where and what kind of debt SCTY really holds since we're not privy to every financial/debt agreement they've signed. And further, the manner in which SCTY management portrays their finances not only changes frequently but is very complicated and lacks transparency, IMO.

So, there's a good chance that SCTY's debt is fine and TSLA's acquisition go through and it doesn't affect TSLA negatively. But I also think there's a decent chance that SCTY's debt is more toxic than SCTY management has let on, and that it does affect TSLA more negatively than what TSLA anticipates.

Until we are able to see all of SCTY's financial contracts, we're left to having to take management's word. And if you believe them, you're probably for the merger. If you don't think they're trustworthy, then you're probably against it because of the additional risks it poses to TSLA.

Also, on another point it's also possible that SCTY management isn't giving the entire picture to Elon as well.

That just reads as expressing doubt for the sake of doubt. You have:
1) assumed that there's a recession next year (reasonable risk scenario)
2) assumed that the model 3 gets delayed (also reasonable risk scenario, but only an issue when a subset of the above)
3) assumed that the model S/X sales aren't enough to pay for operations (same exceptions as #2)
4) assumed that SCTY management isn't trustworthy (reasonable risk scenario, but very difficult to justify)
5) assumed that SCTY debt is worse than they've admitted (is a subset of #4, because trustworthy management isn't going to give you bad debt numbers, but UNtrustworthy management CAN still give you honest debt numbers)

The scenario you're worried about requires several [mostly independent] risk factors to occur _in combination_ before its a viable scenario. I just can't agree to the amount of weight you've given SCTY's debt.
 
At Tesla, it was a CEO change. That's much different than two companies merging. Mergers are complicated and tend to drain a lot of energy/focus, and often don't work out as well. It's a different animal than changing CEOs. I'd be all for changing the CEO of SCTY. Just leave SolarCity as it's own company and not bring Tesla into it (in other words, I don't like the SCTY liability that TSLA gets exposed to in a merger). Let Tesla focus on Model 3 ramp which is going to be difficult enough. If Model 3 ramp goes well, let's talk about solar acquisitions at that point in 2018.

What about Tesla energy? TSLA isn't ONLY about the model 3. The Secret Master Plan #2 needs solar panel integration with its batteries as well.
 
For anyone interested in info about Todd Katz, the oil exec who impersonated Elon, here is is, straight from the Quest Integrity website. Figure I'll post this here before he tries to scrub the internet of all mentions of him.

Todd A. Katz – Chief Financial Officer
Mr. Katz is Chief Financial Officer of Quest Integrity. Prior to joining Quest Integrity, he spent a total of nine years in the mergers & acquisitions groups at several leading Wall Street investment banks, including Morgan Stanley, and most recently, as a Director at Merrill Lynch. During this period, Mr. Katz advised senior management and board members on a variety of mergers, acquisitions, divestitures, company sales, spin-offs, fairness opinions and shareholder rights plans. Mr. Katz’s transaction experience spans a variety of industries, including energy, healthcare, technology, software, telecommunications, food and general industrial. He began his career as a financial analyst at The MacNeal-Schwendler Corporation, a publicly traded engineering software company, where he played a critical role in the company’s global accounting and SEC reporting functions. Mr. Katz holds a B.A. in Business Economics from the University of California, Los Angeles and an M.B.A. in Finance from The Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania.

In-Line Inspection for Challenging Pipelines | Fitness-for-Service Assessment
 
I wouldn't be surprised if there's a growing sentiment among institutional investors (many of whom are invested in TSLA) that TSLA would be better off with someone else at the CEO helm and Elon doing more product/vision stuff.

According to the most recent interview just posted in this thread, Elon already spends (according to him) 80% of his time on engineering stuff.
 
However, I think it's just perspective. If you trust SCTY's management and how they portray their debt/liabilities... then I can see why you'd like the merger. It's just that I don't trust their management and I think there's a good chance their debt is more toxic than they're letting on. And I don't want Tesla touching that stuff or being exposed to it, especially during a critical time like Model 3 ramp.

Regarding SCTY's debt, it's just really difficult to access where and what kind of debt SCTY really holds since we're not privy to every financial/debt agreement they've signed. And further, the manner in which SCTY management portrays their finances not only changes frequently but is very complicated and lacks transparency, IMO.

So, there's a good chance that SCTY's debt is fine and TSLA's acquisition go through and it doesn't affect TSLA negatively. But I also think there's a decent chance that SCTY's debt is more toxic than SCTY management has let on, and that it does affect TSLA more negatively than what TSLA anticipates.

Until we are able to see all of SCTY's financial contracts, we're left to having to take management's word. And if you believe them, you're probably for the merger. If you don't think they're trustworthy, then you're probably against it because of the additional risks it poses to TSLA.

Also, on another point it's also possible that SCTY management isn't giving the entire picture to Elon as well.
You know that Elon is part of SCTY management? You argument is either that:
1. SCTY management, Elon included are dishonest scumbags?
2. SCTY management are dishonest scumbags, and Elon is gullible and foolish enough that they fooled him and Jason, and everyone else Tesla hired to do due diligence?

I think your caution is admirable, but in this instance I believe it's way over the top.

Regarding competition, I guess we'll just choose to disagree on this. I see competition coming sooner (within 2-3 years) than later (5-10 years). Mainly because I think it's all about the costs, and LG Chem has proven they can build cells at low cost.
Why are you concerned with competition? For the foreseeable future compelling, long range EV's don't need to be concerned with competition. ICE car makers and makers of uncompelling EV's are the ones who should be concerned. The LEAF is an example of an uncompelling EV.

I agree with many of your positive, anti fan boy GM Bolt posts, but I think that GM is the company that should be concerned. Do you think that the Bolt is competitive with the M3? Beyond that do you see any signs that GM has any clue that they are not competitive, or how to tackle the problem? GM's problem isn't that they can't build a decent EV for ~$35k. Their problem is they lack the vision and ability to build a great $35k car that happens to be an EV. This probably dies not matter, because the market for decent EV's is huge enough, but I believe that a TSLA investor absolutely has nothing to worry about in terms of competition.

I made a mistake on GM's pack cost, it's about $210kWh, not $245kWh. But LG Chem has definitely not proven that they can build cells or packs at a price that is competitive with GF prices. Scale isn't the only reason, or even the main reason for the GF related price reductions (I intend to explain this more completely when I have more time).
 
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According to the most recent interview just posted in this thread, Elon already spends (according to him) 80% of his time on engineering stuff.

I seriously doubt that the large investor base wants a different CEO. CEO changes are incredibly rare, and even less so for a high growth, multi-billion dollar revenue company like tesla. If you are an institutional investor this bet is on Elon as much as the rest of the company. He is the largest shareholder, rescued the company (personally) from bankruptcy, chief product architect, shown ability to raise billions of dollars, key visionary and basically grew market cap from IPO to today about 15 times.
 
Sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to say hello: I didn't know about this forum until today, but I spent the last 3 hours reading through a dozen pages of this thread and the level of analysis (and civil discussion!) it's great.
Thanks!

I'm a tiny and absolutely naive investor, both TSLA and SCTY. Long on the merger (but very worried to be missing red flags).
 
Okay, I will really need to devote more time over the weekend to come up with various probabilistic scenarios but here is my quick take:
I expect TSLA to start going up big time right from here. Don't ask me why, it's just my trader's intuition (although I'm sure I can come up with several technical reasons if I try)
The move up has already started and it will pick up steam starting next quarter and thereafter I expect TSLA to begin a meteoric ascent into the stratosphere for at least the next 4 quarters that is well into Q3 2017
Assuming all this plays out as I suspect, this is the time to establish long term position in TSLA before the end of September 2016 in order to realize long term capital gains in taxable accounts
I'm seriously considering selling my highly profitable FB call options that I already have long term capital gains in, which I have held since July 2015 and putting the proceeds in TSLA stock ( not J 2018 calls even though I have tons of those already) why? Because I do not like putting a time limit on my TSLA position. J 2018 is cutting it too close and in any case if TSLA takes off as I suspect it will then my huge position in common will be quite satisfactory
We'll see
There is many a slip
Between the cup and the lip
 
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Mobileye seems to want the spat to continue. Or try to lay blame on Tesla.
Mobileye says it warned Tesla against enabling 'hands-free' driving | Reuters

Mobileye NV said in a U.S. securities filing on Friday that its top executives were assured by Tesla Motors Inc Chief Executive Elon Musk that drivers of the company's electric cars would not be allowed to take their hands off the wheel when using the "Autopilot" driving assistance system, but Tesla later allowed hands-free driving over Mobileye's objections. Mobileye said that in product-planning communications between the top executives of Mobileye and Tesla going back to May 2015, the supplier expressed safety concerns regarding Tesla's plans to allow drivers to remove their hands from the wheel while driving.
 
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Mobileye seems to want the spat to continue. Or try to lay blame on Tesla.
Mobileye says it warned Tesla against enabling 'hands-free' driving | Reuters

Mobileye NV said in a U.S. securities filing on Friday that its top executives were assured by Tesla Motors Inc Chief Executive Elon Musk that drivers of the company's electric cars would not be allowed to take their hands off the wheel when using the "Autopilot" driving assistance system, but Tesla later allowed hands-free driving over Mobileye's objections. Mobileye said that in product-planning communications between the top executives of Mobileye and Tesla going back to May 2015, the supplier expressed safety concerns regarding Tesla's plans to allow drivers to remove their hands from the wheel while driving.

Mobileye's execs should be focusing on fixing the holes in their system, especially since the upgraded v.8.0 AP has already addressed the deficiency in Mobileye's setup.

I would be embarrassed to publish this nonsense if I were them. Bush league.
 
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A couple of items:

First - Mod Hat is now ON:
Thank you to all for the high quality of posts over the past days - week or so. As I begin to phase out our six-month hiatus, I'll be re-asserting ModMode early next month. And by the by: that means I'm going to be laying some stuff on the line at that time - fairly warned.

Second - Mod Hat is now OFF:
I'll not name names - you know who you are - but an especial thank you to those who have conducted nicely deliberative, well-reasoned discourse on the ins and outs of the TSLA-SCTY merger. And to keep on the table our activities, this week we -

1. Exited our quite significant MBLY position, held since the IPO. Although I had been inclined to maintain it in order to keep exposure to the advances in autonomy in the rest of the automotive industry, management's petulant playing of escalati-o vis-a-vis Tesla tipped the balance and I decided to use those funds elsewhere. As in -

2. Re-created a position in SCTY after a very long hiatus. The pros and cons of Solar City have been well expostulated by others here, as I noted above; our own risk-reward ratio is such that I could justify taking a fraction of our cash freed up from MBLY into this putative TSLA proxy (a hefty fraction, but still have a sizable cash balance remaining). Bought in entirely in the 16s, with an average at $16.94. Obviously, happy so far.

3. Some portfolio shifting meant added some more TSLA at $204. Obviously, happy so far.

What???? No NVDIA. :rolleyes:
 
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Mobileye seems to want the spat to continue. Or try to lay blame on Tesla.
Mobileye says it warned Tesla against enabling 'hands-free' driving | Reuters

Mobileye NV said in a U.S. securities filing on Friday that its top executives were assured by Tesla Motors Inc Chief Executive Elon Musk that drivers of the company's electric cars would not be allowed to take their hands off the wheel when using the "Autopilot" driving assistance system, but Tesla later allowed hands-free driving over Mobileye's objections. Mobileye said that in product-planning communications between the top executives of Mobileye and Tesla going back to May 2015, the supplier expressed safety concerns regarding Tesla's plans to allow drivers to remove their hands from the wheel while driving.

Weird considering they highlighted the AutoPilot hands off capabilities in April, just weeks before the deadly crash in Florida that kicked off this whole mess.
 
Adam, I respect your thoughts as well. Hopefully, dialogue on this and other issues will help both of us and others as well.

My main reason in selling SCTY is what I perceive the growing threat of their bankruptcy and also because I no longer trust their management. I guess one can ask me to prove that their management is not trustworthy, but on the other hand I could ask for people to prove that SCTY's management is trustworthy. I think for those, like me, who have been following SCTY very closely (ie., listening to all earnings calls, reading all filings, following all interviews), it's fairly evident that SCTY not only didn't forecast their recent problems (ie., lower demand, higher costs, financing issues, etc) but also wasn't forthright (again, this is my opinion). I would suggest folks asking people who have been following SCTY super closely and ask their opinion on SCTY management.

(On another note, I don't like the large arbitrage spread on SCTY vs TSLA. I don't think we have the upper hand on this as individual/small investors. Big banks/funds have had special access to SCTY's books due to financing, and thus they have the advantage in the case of evaluating SCTY's finances. And it's my opinion that banks/lenders are reluctant to lend money to SCTY not because of the pending TSLA merger, because that's actually good for SCTY, but more because of SCTY's many problems, slowing growth, and unsure future. As a result, I do think the large arbitrage spread is not something that I want to play around with... I think it's playing with fire. Sure, you might not get burned this time, but it's very risky.)

Regarding why I would sell SCTY, vote no on the merger, and then continue to hold long TSLA. It's quite simple, holding TSLA isn't a binary thing for me. In other words, I can choose how many shares to hold and at what allocation. Currently, I'm at super-aggressive level. If merger goes through, it brings up risk to TSLA (as I shared prior) and that might make me less enthusiastic about holding TSLA but doesn't make me want to sell all my shares. Perhaps my position moves from super-aggressive to just aggressive (and perhaps I trim my position as a result) or perhaps it moves it to lower level.

If SCTY merger doesn't go through, I see it as a positive for TSLA. I think large investors will be relieved. TSLA won't have exposure to SCTY debt/risks and Tesla can focus on Model 3 execution without being hampered down with trying to restructure and remodel a bad business (again "bad business" is my opinion). So, if SCTY doesn't go through, I think TSLA pops.

Now, if SCTY merger doesn't go through, the next question is what happens to SCTY. I don't know what happens. I only bring up possibilities and probabilities. It's entirely possible that I'm wrong and SCTY does fine as a stand-alone company. In this case, TSLA and Elon's reputation is fine. Now, it's possible that SCTY goes bankrupt as well. Sure, this will hurt Elon's reputation but I don't think it will affect TSLA that deeply. I can see maybe it hits TSLA 5-10%. But investors can see that SCTY failing doesn't have much to do with TSLA failing or succeeding. They are two completely separate companies. In other words, SCTY failing doesn't affect Model 3 demand or sales. Whatever impact SCTY failing has on Elon's reputation, I think, will only be temporary. The guy's already a legend w/Paypal, SpaceX, Tesla, etc. One company (and his smallest) failing won't mean that much to his legacy. He'll be fine and his reputation will be as well. TSLA will also be fine as a result. On another note, many investors are already starting to adjust their expectations on Elon's role at Tesla and don't expect him to be CEO for the long-term. Elon's stated that he's only committed to being CEO until Model 3 reaches full production, and that time is coming close (maybe early 2018?). So realistically, Elon is only committed to being Tesla CEO for another 18 months or so. Sure, he's committed his lifetime to supporting and helping the company, but that can be done in other ways than being CEO. All this to say, that I don't think TSLA is as dependent on Elon's reputation as it was several years ago. TSLA is growing to be a more mature company, and after Model 3 reaches full production, Tesla will be much stronger and mature.

Overall, I'm not too concerned about TSLA taking a small, temporary minor dip due to Elon's "damaged reputation" caused by a SCTY failure, mostly because I don't think it'll damage his reputation much. In terms of market cap, SCTY is already relatively small ($1.75B) and that also will minimize the reputation hit on Elon. His other companies, SpaceX and Tesla, are worth multiple times more. Now if SpaceX were to go bankrupt, that would be another story.

Anyway, I see it in the best interest of TSLA if Tesla were to stay away from SCTY and its debt, business model, bloated structure, and shady (my opinion) management. Let Tesla focus on Model 3 ramp and not try to use it's precious time/focus/resources on trying to save another company.



I also see synergies... but most of all it allows Tesla Energy to get into the solar system market and offer a complete system w/battery storage to residential, commercial and utility. Thus, the synergy argument makes a lot of sense and I agree with it. This was the main reason why I was for the merger when it was first announced.

However, I think it's just perspective. If you trust SCTY's management and how they portray their debt/liabilities... then I can see why you'd like the merger. It's just that I don't trust their management and I think there's a good chance their debt is more toxic than they're letting on. And I don't want Tesla touching that stuff or being exposed to it, especially during a critical time like Model 3 ramp.

Dave, shorts often make comments like these:
1. SolarCity's management can not be trusted;
2. The intent of the merger is to save SCTY from spiral death;
3. Buying SCTY is bad for Tesla;
4. There is a decent chance the merger will not go through, SCTY would bankrupt;
5. Elon should step down;
......

Now I found you started to make these comments. It's kind of interesting. Did you somehow got yourself into a short position?
 
Dave, shorts often make comments like these:
1. SolarCity's management can not be trusted;
2. The intent of the merger is to save SCTY from spiral death;
3. Buying SCTY is bad for Tesla;
4. There is a decent chance the merger will not go through, SCTY would bankrupt;
5. Elon should step down;
......

Now I found you started to make these comments. It's kind of interesting. Did you somehow got yourself into a short position?

Dave T is not short TSLA. He is successfully, IMO, bringing to light alternative possible realities to a group that generally does not take anything even remotely 'negative EM/TM' well. As they say in Massachusetts, DaveT is 'wicked smart' and very analytical.

Keep posting DaveT, this forum needs your input.;)
 
Don't know if anyone's paying attention to AH, but it went to 205.66, then again to 205.75. After that, a bunch more went for 205.75.

I took a look at TSLA and SCTY. There seemed to bunch of trades, TSLA, for example where the exact same amount of shares in a transaction was listed at one time and then about a few hours later. Don't remember if they were at the same price but it was close. Also, many 3,000 share trades. I don't watch this and am always fuzzy on numbers, but was volume for both stocks higher than usual? By inspection some of the trades seemed the largest I can remember.
 
My view on Mobileye: the bottom line is Mobileye failed to see big objects on the road. In the current system, that part is done by Mobileye. Then Tesla's software will decide what to do with the objects.

Tesla didn't want to start a blaming game, they took the blame, worked hard to find a radar solution.

But Mobileye is concerned the industry will find out anyway: that the Mobileye system has fatal flaws. So Mobileye decided to blame Tesla first. Of course Mobileye is also angry that Tesla is developing their own system. Just my speculation.

I didn't invest in MBLY early on because of this reason: Tesla can not rely on a sole supplier for such an important feature. (What if MBLY is too slow, what if it is acquired by an ICE company, what if MBLY decides to triple their price?) Of course Tesla would develop their own system, and once they start, they are highly likely to have the best system in the world.
 
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